Use of dates

euclid · Jul 22, 2008

I am struggling with dates in a historical fiction context.

Editor and various reference books I have read, suggest:

July 22, 1096 as the best format for dates.

But this looks very American and very modern to me.

How about:

July the twenty-second, 1096
July twenty-second, 1096
the twenty-second of July, 1096
the twenty-second day of July, 1096

?

donroc · Jul 22, 2008

You can put the day first as other nations do. On the twenty-second day of July 1096.

lkp · Jul 22, 2008

I struggle with this too, because I write medieval HF.

Unless you have an omniscient narrator with a contemporary perspective and "he" is the one giving the date, I would not use month, day, year, because that is not how medieval people would have described time. Particular days would have been described according to their relationship to Christian feasts (you can see this in the chronicles of the crusades). Years would have been described in relationship to the regnal years of the local or relevant ruler. If your POV character is a scribe, he might be expected to think in terms of "anno domini one thousand and ninety six" but very few others would have thought that way.

In the end, I just cut out all references to years as both anachronistic and not especially interesting to either my readers or my characters, I used months and seasons to indicate time of year, and I used feast days for dates.

DeleyanLee · Jul 22, 2008

I've also seen it written as "the twenty and second day of July, in the year of our Lord one-thousand, ninety-six".

Personally, I'd avoid using a date unless you're doing time markers as chapter headings or something. While dates are important to me as an author, me as a reader barely notes them if they're in the text since I suck at remembering them in general.

Doogs · Jul 22, 2008

Depends how you intend to use the dates. Will they be referenced in the main body of the novel, or used for chapter/section headings?

Personally, I use modern date reckoning for my headings (e.g. October 12, 217 B.C.). I tried going period correct (three days before the Ides of October, in the consulship of Gaius Flaminius and Gnaeus Servilius Geminus), but found it hopelessly confused even period-knowledgeable readers.

In the actual body of the novel, avoid modern date reckoning at all costs, and generally favor going vague (around the summer solstice...toward the end of March...etc), but that's because the Roman dating system is so hopelessly cumbersome.

Since you're writing about the 11th century, you may want to tie in-novel dates to various saints' days and whatnot...

euclid · Jul 22, 2008

Thanks for all those enlightened replies !!

My ms originally was very vague about dates "Some days later" "towards the end of January" that sort of thing. Editor said I needed to nail down the dates for the reader. What do these editors know anywhow?

lkp · Jul 23, 2008

Here's a question for you, Euclid: What are you calling the place where all the crusaders went to fight? The Holy Land? Palestine? The kingdom of Jerusalem?

And another: the word "crusade" didn't come into existence until much, much later, though there was roughly a word for "crusader" (cruce signatus). Given this, are you calling what they did in your novel, a crusade, talking about them going on crusade, etc.?

euclid · Jul 23, 2008

Panic!

lkp said:
Here's a question for you, Euclid: What are you calling the place where all the crusaders went to fight? The Holy Land? Palestine? The kingdom of Jerusalem?

The Holy Land.

And another: the word "crusade" didn't come into existence until much, much later, though there was roughly a word for "crusader" (cruce signatus). Given this, are you calling what they did in your novel, a crusade, talking about them going on crusade, etc.?

That's a good question, LP. I have been using Crusade and Pilgrims, mostly. I looked it up in OED and you are absolutely and definitively correct. Crusade is a 16th century word at best.

My attitude to the use of anachronistic words is as follows:
In the narrative, they may be used, provided they are not too modern and don't obviously jar with the text. I think Crusade is okay there.
In dialogue, I have tried to use only words (or modern versions of words) which would have been used then (or in the Middle English period). In this context, the word crusade must go. I took a look (Runciman p107) at what Pope Urban is reported to have said when he made the announcement in November 1095. There's not much help there. He spoke about "aiding the brethern in the East" and "rescuing the East".

Any suggestions?

I realise that the ME period is later than 1100, but the English language seems to have undergone a major upheaval between Old and Middle English (and again between Middle and modern English)

Doogs · Jul 23, 2008

FYI - I believe the Holy Land was actually known as Outremer during the time of the First Crusade.

lkp · Jul 23, 2008

Yes, and people in Europe or heading over there would have called it that, but I'm not sure people who were there would have called it that since it means "on the other side of the sea" and to people who were born there, everyone else is on the other side of the sea, not them.

euclid · Jul 24, 2008

The word Crusade etc

lkp said:
Yes, and people in Europe or heading over there would have called it that, but I'm not sure people who were there would have called it that since it means "on the other side of the sea" and to people who were born there, everyone else is on the other side of the sea, not them.

I'm sure you are both right about Outremer, but I'm happy enough with the Holy Land. It seems like such a natural phrase. The cities of the East were referred to as Holy Cities, I think. And as for what the people living there called it, there is no dialogue in my book by residents of these lands (just screams, mostly).

I do have one or two scenes where 'the locals' convey information to the invaders, but these are handled in narrative, not dialogue.

For Crusade, I was thinking: 'Pilgrimage' or 'Holy Pilgrimage', although neither of these convey the military nature of the thing. It's a bit like calling a football match a walk in a field. Roget suggests 'call to arms' which might do in some places.

I think I have called the crusaders 'soldiers of Christ' once or twice.

Use of dates

euclid

Where did I put me specs?

donroc

Historicals and Horror rule

lkp

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

Doogs

euclid

Where did I put me specs?

lkp

euclid

Where did I put me specs?

Doogs

lkp

euclid

Where did I put me specs?