Profanity in YA writing

Barb D · Jul 11, 2008

OK, OK, I know how most of you feel about this. I've read enough threads here. But hear me out.

My two MCs are totally different, and are loosely based on real teenagers. They know they have characters based on them, and frequently offer advice about what they would and would not say.

One of them is my DD15, who is pretty fast and loose with her language. FWIW, I'm not, and she doesn't swear too much in front of me, but I know that she does with her friends (and she knows I know.) To make her realistic, I need to throw at least some "What the hell's" in there.

The other is my DNiece 16, who says "Oh my Gosh" because "Oh my God" is too profane. I had to hunt long and hard for even PG and PG-13 movies that she and her sisters were allowed to watch when they visited me. (Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants was out, because Bridget seduced the soccer coach, even PG-ly.) I want her to be able to read the book! Not only that, I want her sisters and her friends, who are similarly conservative, to be able to read the book.

I do respect my sister and her wishes very much, even though she does raise her children much more strictly than I do. OTOH, I want the book to accurately reflect the personalities of both girls. How to I balance this?

Shady Lane · Jul 11, 2008

You have to write the book honestly, even if some people wish that you wouldn't.

After my novella was released, my grandmother called, absolutely shocked that I used the word "fuck" something like sixty five times.

There will always be a niece, or a grandmother, or a critic or a book group or a country that has a problem with you writing honestly. And I know that it sucks when it's someone close to you, but if you start custom-making a book for them, it's just a downward spiral until your characters are apologizing to the audience every time they burp, you know?

bethany · Jul 11, 2008

OMG Shady, I LOVE that story!

Okay, here's what I firmly believe...be true to your characters. The minute you let someone in to your head while you're writing, whether it's the ALA, your boss, your daughter or neice (if the character does something they wouldn't like or embarassing) a grandmother, a mentor, whatever, the work WILL suffer. I would never base YA characters however loosely on real people for that reason. I typically put my characters in humiliating situations, though.

However, not everyone curses. I personally go through phases where I use very clean language. Followed by huge bouts of profanity. Mainly because I find profanity extremely amusing. If someone's language is very guarded, it's probable that they will sound weird when cursing, like awkward. So I obviously don't think both of your characters have to use profanity, but try to reflect it accurately as you can. For the most part we don't miss it when it isn't there, and we don't notice when it is, unless particularly shocking or out of character.

Barb D · Jul 11, 2008

bethany said:
So I obviously don't think both of your characters have to use profanity, but try to reflect it accurately as you can. For the most part we don't miss it when it isn't there, and we don't notice when it is, unless particularly shocking or out of character.

I definitely don't have both of them using it. In the same situation I have Polly say "What the hell" and Joy say "OhmyGosh". But truly, Polly would probably say something even stronger than that. I feel like I'm pushing it even with "hell" though. (I have a damn in there too.) Like I said, I want them to be allowed to read it!

bethany · Jul 11, 2008

Pushing what, though? What your sister will let her read? I don't think you'll find much success if you write thinking about one conservative family member, and remember, even if you have great success, write fast, get an agent, sell quicky, you are looking at at least 2.5 years. How old will this girl and her friends be in 2.5 years? Will their mamas still be vetting their reading material?

Barb D · Jul 11, 2008

bethany said:
Pushing what, though? What your sister will let her read? I don't think you'll find much success if you write thinking about one conservative family member, and remember, even if you have great success, write fast, get an agent, sell quicky, you are looking at at least 2.5 years. How old will this girl and her friends be in 2.5 years? Will their mamas still be vetting their reading material?

DNiece16 is the 4th of 10 children. My sister has a lot of vetting ahead of her.

ETA: Let me say again that I love and respect my sister. Her kids are awesome and wholesome, and I adore them all. Please don't take this as something negative about them.

rugcat · Jul 11, 2008

Shady Lane said:
After my novella was released, my grandmother called, absolutely shocked that I used the word "fuck" something like sixty five times.

Well I'm shocked, too. I think I used that word twice in my book. Helps keep it heartfelt.

Of course, my first book was a police procedural/thriller and I used it so many times I lost count. I was actually a bit shocked when I read the final draft and saw how many there were.

But if your dialogue is meant to be realistic, and your characters are cops, bikers, dope dealers and psychopaths, it's hard to avoid sprinkling it in like popcorn.

Shady Lane · Jul 11, 2008

I just went back and find/replaced it...28 times.

My characters are teenagers stuck on an island. They get mad.

Fillanzea · Jul 11, 2008

Some authors write very clean books where the characters swear... but not in the actual text. See Stephanie Tolan's "Surviving the Applewhites": Jake swears a lot, but we as readers only hear that he says a word that in the vocabulary of the family parrot (who used to belong to somebody foul-mouthed, I guess - I don't recall the book that well.) In my own novel, I have one or two f-bombs, but also "Heather swore with astonishing creativity," because I don't have astonishing creativity in the realm of swearing and I wanted to leave that to the imagination.

So that is one possible situation, but it gets to feeling artificial very fast. "Surviving the Applewhites" was a middle-grade, not a YA, so it was probably the best alternative to having Jake swear in the text, but I'm not generally a big fan of it.

It's a bit of an impasse. I hope you can find a way to make it both realistic and acceptable to your niece and your sister... but I don't see how. If it were my choice to make I'd keep the cursing in, and that wouldn't be anything negative about your sister or her child-raising or her family, it's just the way it would be. And if you decide the opposite way, I think that's fine too. But I think it might be a time when you can't have your cake and eat it too.

mirrorkisses · Jul 11, 2008

My novel has a lot of cussing... Because I cuss a lot. The girls who hang out in "alternative" groups, like punk rockers, cuss a lot because they hang out with mostly men (which is my experience). So, I actually had to tone down some of the language for YA. It's not like I didn't say things like that as a teen, but there was some toning down to do. Although the character still says it in front of her parents (which I did as a teen).

Anyway, the BIGGEST cuss word said in my novel is "cock". I'm not sure how agents will react to it, and I thought about cutting it, but then I thought about the situation. The girl is completely drunk, and she's confronting a guy she really hates. Of course she's going to come right out and say something like that. So I kept it.

I think you need to look at your book and how it fits in with the whole story. Don't worry about others while you're writing it, because only you know what is best.

Also, I wrote a sex scene in my novel knowing full well my mom would read it during editing stage. My mom actually said it turned her on! (a little embarrassing for both of us.) My dad will most likely read the story, and I don't like to think he's going to read about that sort of stuff from his daughter, but I can't worry about that. Now my 86 year old grandmother.... She will not be reading my novel.

Fillanzea · Jul 11, 2008

Hey, I've seen "cock" in books for the under-5 set!

....Okay, so they were talking about roosters

JoNightshade · Jul 11, 2008

Suggestion: Write the book with the swearing, as it ought to be.

When you share it, make an edited version for your more conservative family members. You can do this very easily on Lulu.com. That should make the parental censors happy.

(Although if it was me, I'd be sneaking that kid all sorts of profane material. Geez. I'm a so-called "conservative Christian" and I think one of the worst things parents can do to their children is censor all profanity and sex. It leaves them weak and unable to deal with such things in the real world. It frequently also has the effect of making them ashamed of their sexuality.)

Shady Lane · Jul 11, 2008

JoNightshade said:
Suggestion: Write the book with the swearing, as it ought to be.

When you share it, make an edited version for your more conservative family members. You can do this very easily on Lulu.com. That should make the parental censors happy.

(Although if it was me, I'd be sneaking that kid all sorts of profane material. Geez. I'm a so-called "conservative Christian" and I think one of the worst things parents can do to their children is censor all profanity and sex. It leaves them weak and unable to deal with such things in the real world. It frequently also has the effect of making them ashamed of their sexuality.)

I agree with all of this (except that I'm a commie Jew, but whatevs)

Toothpaste · Jul 11, 2008

You have to write your book and not worry about what others think. As nice as it would be for your niece to be allowed to read the book (and trust me, if she isn't, she will still probably find a way), are you writing the book for her or for a wider market?

I wrote a play several years ago. One character dropped the f bomb ALL the time. I don't even know how many times. It was how he spoke, his character trait. My mother read the play, said she liked it, but, as I was already aware, the swearing did jar her a bit. She didn't tell me to change it, she knew it was a taste thing. When she saw the play she came up to me after and told me how different it was to watch it. She then understood how it was just the way the character spoke, that it wasn't a big deal for him to say the word, and the way the actor delivered the lines so casually, she found that it didn't really bother her.

Anyway, not sure what my point was with that. I guess the first point was that I wrote the play I wanted to knowing my mom wouldn't like the swearing. And the second point was that sometimes the f bomb doesn't need to be a big deal. A special word used in the book to signify something truly awful. It can also be a character trait, it can demonstrate the kind of people who are talking that they use it that casually.

Barb D · Jul 11, 2008

JoNightshade said:
Suggestion: Write the book with the swearing, as it ought to be.

When you share it, make an edited version for your more conservative family members. You can do this very easily on Lulu.com. That should make the parental censors happy.

Oooh!! I didn't know about this! I'll have to check it out!

JoNightshade said:
(Although if it was me, I'd be sneaking that kid all sorts of profane material. Geez. I'm a so-called "conservative Christian" and I think one of the worst things parents can do to their children is censor all profanity and sex. It leaves them weak and unable to deal with such things in the real world. It frequently also has the effect of making them ashamed of their sexuality.)

DS17 offered to show me the "code" for profanity using symbols. Apparently that way those "in the know" would know what it meant.

And he's a good Christian kid (unlike his heathen sister

).

JoNightshade · Jul 11, 2008

Just as an aside, I have no clue what your abbreviations for your relatives mean. DS17 means... something son, 17 years old?

Barb D · Jul 11, 2008

JoNightshade said:
Just as an aside, I have no clue what your abbreviations for your relatives mean. DS17 means... something son, 17 years old?

Sorry; these are pretty standard on several other boards I'm on.

DS17 is my Dear Son, 17 years old.
DD15 is my Dear Daughter, 15 years old. (I also have a DD8)
DH is my Dear Husband, and I'm his DW.

And this is my 50th post, so I get to go make an Avatar!

Barb D · Jul 11, 2008

Barb D said:
And this is my 50th post, so I get to go make an Avatar!

Or maybe not. Let's try 51...

ETA: Apparently it just took a while for the server to catch up. And she has an avatar!

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 11, 2008

Hmm I feel for you in a way, but I say go with realism over conservatism.

My mother hates swearing. Loathes it. I think I drop the f-bomb over 70 times in my YA. (it's longer than Shady's though, so take that fwiw) She started reading said novel and I asked her about the swearing. She said that it was very believable and she understood why I did it. *shrug*

Loads of people are going to hate you for whatever they want to, ignore it and go with your gut. I have to say though, I always find it amusing when i see Americans think hell is a swearword.

Danalynn · Jul 12, 2008

Barb, I like what others have said about writing it honestly the way YOU and your characters (which may be more important) feel the most comfortable with. And then you can always go back and creat a cencored version for your more conservative family memebers after that.

That sounds like a plan and a half.

:Sun:

Nakhlasmoke said:
I have to say though, I always find it amusing when i see Americans think hell is a swearword.

Does that mean hell is not considered a swear word where you are from? (Where ARE you from? lol)

Actually, it is only a swear word here in the US when it's used in a swearing kind of context.

Telling someone to go to hell is considered cussing here. What the hell is, too . . . It hurt like hell . . . Where the hell have you been . . . etc., etc. When you use the word like that, it's considered a swear word in the US.

If you're just giving references to Heaven and Hell, it's not.

I'm curious, is it not like that where you come from?

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 12, 2008

Dana-Lynn said:
Does that mean hell is not considered a swear word where you are from? (Where ARE you from? lol)

Actually, it is only a swear word here in the US when it's used in a swearing kind of context. Telling someone to go to hell is considered cussing here. What the hell is, too . . . It hurt like hell . . . Where the hell have you been . . . etc., etc. When you use the word like that, it's considered a swear word in the US.

If you're just giving references to Heaven and Hell, it's not.

I'm curious, is it not like that where you come from?

Haha go to hell might be considered rude because of the sentiment, but not for the use of the word hell.

nope, it's just not a swearword where I'm from. (South Africa)

elissa · Jul 12, 2008

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone have the experience of writing a YA manuscript and then having an agent or editor request for you to tone down the language? How much does the language affect marketability?

I'm on my first draft, and I've mainly just said I'm going to write what the characters would say and not worry about it until editing, but there are times when it's a little easier to reconstruct what I'm saying instead of later going back and trying to put in a "cleaner" word. My thought is that words like "damn," "hell," and even "bitch" are not even on the radar as profanity anymore. They're on prime time television and radio--granted, not for kids, but certainly for teens.

(Btw, my MC has said "fuck" once so far...other than that, it's pretty tame.)

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 12, 2008

elissa said:
Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone have the experience of writing a YA manuscript and then having an agent or editor request for you to tone down the language?

...

Nope. I was slightly concerned about it, but even when I got my revision letter there was no mention made. I took some out anyway.

I think it also depends what age you're aiming it at - higher end of YA will probably have less issues with swearing.

bethany · Jul 12, 2008

I censor myself on the boards miuch more than in the book (job hazard

)

In the editing process with Delacorte/Random House I think I lost all the f-words referring to sex. As in, did you f- her? A question which was never really resolved, btw (though she's pretty sure he got some oral while they were broken up). In copyediting most incidents were questioned. But my editor statted them. Even the word lesbo was questioned as offensive- my editor noted not pc but realistic.

elissa · Jul 12, 2008

Nakhlasmoke said:
Nope. I was slightly concerned about it, but even when I got my revision letter there was no mention made. I took some out anyway.

I think it also depends what age you're aiming it at - higher end of YA will probably have less issues with swearing.

Well, that's cool. My MC is almost 16, so I'd expect my audience to probably start around 13 or 14, but in my experience most kids that age are doing a fair share of "adult" reading as well, like King, Koontz, Dan Brown, etc. It's not like they're innocents, after all.

bethany said:
I censor myself on the boards miuch more than in the book (job hazard )

In the editing process with Delacorte/Random House I think I lost all the f-words referring to sex. As in, did you f- her? A question which was never really resolved, btw (though she's pretty sure he got some oral while they were broken up). In copyediting most incidents were questioned. But my editor statted them. Even the word lesbo was questioned as offensive- my editor noted not pc but realistic.

Interesting about "lesbo." My book has some homosexuality themes (MC is a bit homophobic but finds out two of his mentors are lesbians), and I wonder a little about how far to go with the language. The group of guys in my group regularly insults one another using the word "homo," so whatever.

Nice to see that the language isn't preventing agenting/publication, though it may provide some discussion during editing. Thanks for giving your experiences!

Profanity in YA writing

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