How long before you should allow the BIG plot element to come into play?

Plot Device · Jul 11, 2008

I've been writing screenplays for five years now. And this year I'm making the segue into novels, so I'm out of my element.

Screenplays are fairly rigid in their structure, and the current prevailing wisdom (and it changes every few years) is that you should have the "Inciting Moment" (aka "Inciting Incident") happen no later than Page 10 of the script (ten minutes in) and then "Plot Point 1" should happen some time beteen Page 23 and Page 30 (23 minutes to 30 minutes in), and THAT marks the end of Act 1.

But now I'm doing a novel. I realize you guys don't count pages, instead you count words. And you also don't do acts, you do chapters. So please bear with me as I try to be bi-lingual here.

I'm kinda meandering around in my world building here. And my initial attempt at a First Draft had my "novel equivalent" of the Inciting Moment happen by Page 15. As for Plot Point 1 (or the close of Act 1) I hadn't really hit it until almost Page 40. (Again, I realize you guys don't do page counts, but try to be patenit with me here.)

From what I am reading in the novel writing forums here, most publishers ask for maybe the first three pages of your manuscript, or possibly the first five, and some even ask for the first ten. Once in a great while they want the first three chapters, or even (eeh gads!) the full manuscript. So with that in mind, my latest attempt has my Inciting Moment happen by Page 8. But my Plot Point 1 won't happen (yetaagain) until Page 40!

Now ... I realize this is probably falling flat on a lot of you, so perhaps the simplest way I can ask this question is: how long can you spend indulging in character develoment and backstory and world building before you tax the patience of the reader? (In screeplays, Page 10 is the considered the absolute cutoff where if nothing has happened yet, that script will hit the trash.) Is there a general rule of thumb, or is it wide open?

.

Reilly616 · Jul 11, 2008

Would you mind telling me what Plot point 1 actually is. And also, how many words are on each of your pages. Are you using the standard 250?

dwellerofthedeep · Jul 11, 2008

You could always structure the novel in the same way as a screenplay, just stretch it out. If your novel is to be 100,000 words long and the average screenplay is 120 pages long or so you could do the first plot point within the first 12.5k words. I'm not sure if that would work, now that i write it. It seems like too many words before the story really begins. Putting the inciting even in the first 2000-3000 words seems like a better idea to me, on paper anyway.

Prozyan · Jul 11, 2008

An old adage is "start with action". This is more accurately said "Start with interesting".

The answer to your question is truly subjective and dependant upon execution. If your character building has conflict, tension, and is interesting, you can spend more time on it. If it consists of nothing more than "Joe wasn't happy. His wife left him. He hated his job." and so on and so forth, you have considerably less time. In other words, as long as your character development is interesting and fun, you can spend a decent amount of time with it. If it is bland and boring, not so much.

As for backstory, unless it is absolutely vital to the development of the plot, leave it out. Nothing will kill interest in a novel faster than backstory info-dumps.

maestrowork · Jul 11, 2008

Scripts and novels are different. With movies, they're relatively short (120 minutes, let's say), so it's fine if you want to do 10 or 15 minutes to set up before the inciting incident. It's just enough time for people to chow down a handful of popcorns.

With books, though, if you follow the same formula, you may bore the readers. 1/10 of a book is about 40 pages long -- that's way to late, IMHO, to have your II.

Your II doesn't have to be a big bang or explosion or car chase, but it has to set the plot in motion: "Can't go back now."

To me, it's better to plunge them into the plot rather quickly while you develop characters and talk about the backstories at the same time (or later). Make them care about what's going on first (thus the hook) before you slow down the pace a little to build the world.

Of course, that's just a general idea. Different books are different and there are exceptions. Nothing really happened for over 60 pages in Grisham's A Painted House (and to be honest, it took me three tries to get through that and finally finish the book just because he's Grisham). With SF/F where world building is as important as the plot, you may be allowed to spend more time during ramp up.

Also, the more brilliantly you write, the more you can get away with anything.

Still, the idea is to get the plot moving as soon as you can, so your readers don't say, "Why am I reading this?"

Plot Device · Jul 11, 2008

You guys all gave great responses. Maestro's response in particular was extremely bi-lingual in its adept bridging of the two universes of screenplay and novel.

Prozyn's response was exceedingly grand and strikes me as the most incisive of the lot.

Thanks so much, guys.

Prozyan said:
An old adage is "start with action". This is more accurately said "Start with interesting".

The answer to your question is truly subjective and dependant upon execution. If your character building has conflict, tension, and is interesting, you can spend more time on it. If it consists of nothing more than "Joe wasn't happy. His wife left him. He hated his job." and so on and so forth, you have considerably less time. In other words, as long as your character development is interesting and fun, you can spend a decent amount of time with it. If it is bland and boring, not so much.

As for backstory, unless it is absolutely vital to the development of the plot, leave it out. Nothing will kill interest in a novel faster than backstory info-dumps.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 11, 2008

I'd recommend Noah Lukeman's The First Five Pages and Donald Maas's Writing the Breakout Novel as good resources on this issue.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 11, 2008

I agree with what's been said. Today's audience wants their action almost immediately. We live in an instant gratification society and if you make them wait there's tons of other things out there to entertain them.

My own novel doesn't get to introducing the BIG PLOT until the 4th page, but in the meantime I introduced a couple subplots.

Plot Device · Jul 11, 2008

maestrowork said:
Your II doesn't have to be a big bang or explosion or car chase, but it has to set the plot in motion: "Can't go back now."

Maestro, I do want to clarify that my latest incarnation has the Inciting Incident (where the hero commits himself to the task and then it's no going back) happen by Page 6. But as for how many words deep that is??? Hmmmm, I'd have to go and check that out.

I am currently delineating paragraphs by entire hard returns of empty space instead of via indentation (I think that's called "block parigraphy" but I don't know for sure). So if I were to go back and axe all my empty spaces and use indents, I might tighten it up to where the Inciting Incident lands on Page 5.

Reilly616 said:
Would you mind telling me what Plot point 1 actually is. And also, how many words are on each of your pages. Are you using the standard 250?

I totaly NEVER knew about "the standard 250," so you guys are absolutely educating me here on some very valuable levels.

No, I don't mind at all telling you what Plot Point 1 is all about. (I'll be back in ten minutes with another post with that info.)

dwellerofthedeep said:
It seems like too many words before the story really begins. Putting the inciting even in the first 2000-3000 words seems like a better idea to me, on paper anyway.

Let me go do a word count right now. (Be back in ten minutes.)

.

melaniehoo · Jul 11, 2008

Kristin Nelson blogged about this recently. She did an online workshop on perfecting your pitch, but in it she went on about how the main plot element should be revealed by page 30. Reading your original post, I thought the things you feel apply only for screenplays also apply for novels, if you listen to Nelson.

maestrowork · Jul 11, 2008

Plot Device said:
Maestro, I do want to clarify that my latest incarnation has the Inciting Incident (where the hero commits himself to the task and then it's no going back) happen by Page 6. But as for how many words deep that is??? Hmmmm, I'd have to go and check that out.

Page six is fine, I think. Page 15 is fine, too.

My personal rule of thumb is by the end of chapter 1, you should have presenting the inciting incident, or at least let the readers know what your story is going to be about -- what kind of plot will follow. Different genres may call for different things, but I personally would limit that to chapter 1 -- however long it is. It's there to set the tone and direction for the rest of the novel.

Throughout the first chapter of my novel (about 10 pages long) I hinted at the II but I didn't spell it out. Then at the end of the chapter I revealed it and made the protagonist take a plunge. He decided to do something that would change everything. It's not quite the point of no return yet, but it's the II that sets the plot in real motion. By page 60, the "point of no return" was presented. That's when the protagonist absolutely can't turn back anymore.

Plot Device · Jul 11, 2008

Okay, my Inciting Incident happens by 2575 words. So with this "standard 250" that means I am at Page 10-11.

The Inciting Incident is my hero agrees to illegally do some work under the table with no permits and no inspectors for a wealthy rich woman at her private home. He's risking the loss of his license in taking this contract, but he chooses to violate his personal ethics because she is the wife of a former army officer he served under 20 years ago during Operation Desert Shield. Specifically, he and his commander were on an ACoE team that did the initial set up and instalation of a lot of the ground encampments for Desert Shield.

The Hook comes next, followed by Plot Point 1

The story's Hook is that the next day is when he gets to her house out in Lancaster County (this is September, btw), and finds out she has an impossibly huge underground storage facility of oil tanks beneath her house. She has over 2 million gallons of what's called "#2 Home Heating Oil." And he is being asked to repair a recent leak in one of the tanks, and then to keep it all a secret after the fact. In spite of being overwhelmed by the surealness of the very existence of such a facility under a private home, he agrees to help her. He later learns (back story time!!) her husband is dead, recently died of cancer (Gulf War Syndrome) and that his former commander was part of a military building program under the auspices of the ACoE that got its budget cut and was never finished. Specifically, that defunct program was the construction of several underground storage facilities thorughout the USA. When the program got scrapped, some of the underground facilities were at or near completion. So his former commander (now married to this woman) bought one of them (kinda like it's possible at this time to buy a retired missile silo from Uncle Sam, real cheap too!) and then discreetly built a private family residence on top of it and no one from the civilian world was the wiser. This backstory is all revealed by about Page 18.

And lastly my Plot Point 1 is that several months after he has said goodbye to this women, he is back home in his dumpy apartment in Philadelphia (it's now January, the dead of winter and the height of the winter heating season), just going through life when all hell breaks loose. Total societal meltdown. And now he must escape from this former city turned apocolyptic nightmare. The chaos unfolds by Page 30.

He digs out his old army gear from his foot locker, and also takes his gun and ammo, then he begins hiking on foot out of the city through the snow via the railroad tracks. He makes it out to the countryside and eventually finds his way to this woman's home way the heck out in Lancaster County. This is around page 35-40.

Together they ride out the first wave of chaos as American civilization collapses.

The rest of the story is just plain survival.

.

DeadlyAccurate · Jul 11, 2008

The plot to my last book doesn't begin until chapter 3 (don't remember the page number; probably in the 20s). Chapter 2 introduces a clue to the final reveal, but chapter 1 is action and introduction to the world and character.

My current book has the plot begin in the first chapter, before the first 10 pages, I think, though the reader doesn't really find out what the heroine is in for until another dozen pages or so.

Reilly616 · Jul 11, 2008

Going by what your plot point is, I would say that that point is fine

Good luck!

Kalyke · Jul 11, 2008

Strangely enough, I write using page counts and so on, but from the view point that I have 350 pages instead of 100.

The emotional journey thread begins at page 3, the action thread begins at page 1, the initiating incident is at page 6. At page 25, the first reversal/ plot point, and about each 20 pages thereafter some sort of major conflict, with other conflicts and miniature plot points popping in in between. I have a new scene each 3-5 pages. It's divided into 65 page sections (five acts like a Greek play). At dead center (the very end of the third 65 page set) the balance of power shifts to the antagonist. If this were a car trip movie, the destination would have been reached and the story totally "changed." The action is ramped up; the bodies start tumbling (so to speak). I wouldn't call the first half "set up" or introduction, it was more power-brokering. The good guys were in charge, so to speak. By the center, the bad guy figured out how to win, and now the good guys have to fight growing odds. (I had about 50 plot points per 150 pages). The good guys will get back in charge about 25-20 pages from the end.

I was actually trained first in theater, and television production, so I tend to work as though I were writing a screen play. I don't see much difference between writing for film or writing for the page. In a 3 act play, there is a beginning middle and ending, and in a novel too. If you just divide your novel (like I did,) into 5ths with 1/3/1 as the page count, you can plot where your Events should happen. Although some writers might foo-foo this, I find that knowing where exactly to put your "events" is a huge help to shaping and the tempo of the work.

This is all for the first draft. The later edits will probably show me a few extra things to take out, and some new ones to put in.

It is a highly organized way to do it. Just say "I need 5 things to happen between page XX and page XX --Hmmm. What will those things be?" And it is like you are saying, I have ten seconds of film here, what sort of scene can I write?

WannabeWriter · Jul 11, 2008

The point where the plot gets interesting doesn't have to be on page one, but it shouldn't be beyond 20 pages or 3 chapters.

blacbird · Jul 11, 2008

WannabeWriter said:
The point where the plot gets interesting doesn't have to be on page one, but it shouldn't be beyond 20 pages or 3 chapters.

Something, something, has to happen on page one. It doesn't have to be an explosion with lots of body parts flying around. It doesn't even have to be a direct plot element. What it does have to be is something to convince the reader to trust the writer to continue to deliver the goods as the book goes along. That something could be as simple as really spiffy writing (think Cormac McCarthy), or a situation so curious and compelling you have to read on (think Gabriel Garcia Marquez). But it has to be something.

caw

Danger Jane · Jul 11, 2008

maestrowork said:
Page six is fine, I think. Page 15 is fine, too.

My personal rule of thumb is by the end of chapter 1, you should have presenting the inciting incident, or at least let the readers know what your story is going to be about -- what kind of plot will follow. Different genres may call for different things, but I personally would limit that to chapter 1 -- however long it is. It's there to set the tone and direction for the rest of the novel.

Throughout the first chapter of my novel (about 10 pages long) I hinted at the II but I didn't spell it out. Then at the end of the chapter I revealed it and made the protagonist take a plunge. He decided to do something that would change everything. It's not quite the point of no return yet, but it's the II that sets the plot in real motion. By page 60, the "point of no return" was presented. That's when the protagonist absolutely can't turn back anymore.

This is a very good rule of thumb, I think. I've never yet thought to much on structure in my stories, but my inciting incident does occur by the end of the 1500-word chapter 1, and by the end of chapter 2 I'm working the "main plot" strongly into the initial incident. And my point of no return--the first BIG one--will occur sometime around page 40.

Having two protagonists, though, there are really two points of no return for the beginning third of the story. MC #1's is on page two of her the first chapter. MC #2's is partway through her third chapter, the sixth in the story. Stagger your checkpoints...your readers will thank you after they turn the last page.

Ziljon · Jul 11, 2008

Plot Device said:
Okay, my Inciting Incident happens by 2575 words. So with this "standard 250" that means I am at Page 10-11.

The Inciting Incident is my hero agrees to illegally do some work under the table with no permits and no inspectors for a wealthy rich woman at her private home. He's risking the loss of his license in taking this contract, but he chooses to violate his personal ethics because she is the wife of a former army officer he served under 20 years ago during Operation Desert Shield. Specifically, he and his commander were on an ACoE team that did the initial set up and instalation of a lot of the ground encampments for Desert Shield.

The Hook comes next, followed by Plot Point 1

The story's Hook is that the next day is when he gets to her house out in Lancaster County (this is September, btw), and finds out she has an impossibly huge underground storage facility of oil tanks beneath her house. She has over 2 million gallons of what's called "#2 Home Heating Oil." And he is being asked to repair a recent leak in one of the tanks, and then to keep it all a secret after the fact. In spite of being overwhelmed by the surealness of the very existence of such a facility under a private home, he agrees to help her. He later learns (back story time!!) her husband is dead, recently died of cancer (Gulf War Syndrome) and that his former commander was part of a military building program under the auspices of the ACoE that got its budget cut and was never finished. Specifically, that defunct program was the construction of several underground storage facilities thorughout the USA. When the program got scrapped, some of the underground facilities were at or near completion. So his former commander (now married to this woman) bought one of them (kinda like it's possible at this time to buy a retired missile silo from Uncle Sam, real cheap too!) and then discreetly built a private family residence on top of it and no one from the civilian world was the wiser. This backstory is all revealed by about Page 18.

And lastly my Plot Point 1 is that several months after he has said goodbye to this women, he is back home in his dumpy apartment in Philadelphia (it's now January, the dead of winter and the height of the winter heating season), just going through life when all hell breaks loose. Total societal meltdown. And now he must escape from this former city turned apocolyptic nightmare. The chaos unfolds by Page 30.

He digs out his old army gear from his foot locker, and also takes his gun and ammo, then he begins hiking on foot out of the city through the snow via the railroad tracks. He makes it out to the countryside and eventually finds his way to this woman's home way the heck out in Lancaster County. This is around page 35-40.

Together they ride out the first wave of chaos as American civilization collapses.

The rest of the story is just plain survival.

.

I'd buy this book. This is a great idea and I can't wait to read it! SIGN ME UP!!!

One thing to remember, with an action/apocalyptic/survival thriller like this--well actually two things--is that 1) most people read the blurb on the book jacket and know what's coming (what I mean here is that it's high concept--best-seller material, so readers will either enjoy the delayed gratification or just skim till the action starts). 2) When something is almost all action (you didn't say it was but it just sounds 'action-packed') then perhaps it's good to set off that action with a little in-action. Think of Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring, some of the most exciting music ever written, yet it starts out not with a bang, but with a very lissome bassoon solo.

Hurry up and finish this baby!

SPMiller · Jul 11, 2008

I consulted my fantasy ms. in search of data and I discovered that--despite my schooling and all the reading I've done--I don't have any idea what a "climax" is and how it differs from the "rising" and "falling" action. My writing style doesn't lend itself to a single clear event which is head-and-shoulders more important than the others; they're all crucial and have equal narrative weight in terms of plot development. As far as I can tell, this entire novel is a logically interconnected sequence of climaxes and disasters getting steadily worse, page by page, until a tremendous disaster/victory near the very end.

The biggest climax in the introductory segment is the death/rebirth of one of the protagonists beginning on page 66 (~13250 words), which quickly leads to the characters starting their journey. That's all I can tell you.

But I'd squeeze this into fifty pages if I could, because that's what agents ask for. Unfortunately, I've already shaved 48 pages off the first draft's version of this sequence and I don't think I can cut anything else.

Plot Device · Jul 12, 2008

I have to reply to all of the below and say that These are all very helful replies. Melanie's reply in particular.

Thank you all.

IceCreamEmpress said:
I'd recommend Noah Lukeman's The First Five Pages and Donald Maas's Writing the Breakout Novel as good resources on this issue.

Shadow_Ferret said:
I agree with what's been said. Today's audience wants their action almost immediately. We live in an instant gratification society and if you make them wait there's tons of other things out there to entertain them.

My own novel doesn't get to introducing the BIG PLOT until the 4th page, but in the meantime I introduced a couple subplots.

melaniehoo said:
Kristin Nelson blogged about this recently. She did an online workshop on perfecting your pitch, but in it she went on about how the main plot element should be revealed by page 30. Reading your original post, I thought the things you feel apply only for screenplays also apply for novels, if you listen to Nelson.

Plot Device · Jul 12, 2008

Words escape me at the moment. There's a lot of technical/mechanicl/executional advice being offered here and I can tell it's very valuable, but a lot to digest. So the only thank you I can give is "Thank you." I will ned to digest all of this in increments and I know it won't be a waste.

maestrowork said:
Page six is fine, I think. Page 15 is fine, too.

My personal rule of thumb is by the end of chapter 1, you should have presenting the inciting incident, or at least let the readers know what your story is going to be about -- what kind of plot will follow. Different genres may call for different things, but I personally would limit that to chapter 1 -- however long it is. It's there to set the tone and direction for the rest of the novel.

Throughout the first chapter of my novel (about 10 pages long) I hinted at the II but I didn't spell it out. Then at the end of the chapter I revealed it and made the protagonist take a plunge. He decided to do something that would change everything. It's not quite the point of no return yet, but it's the II that sets the plot in real motion. By page 60, the "point of no return" was presented. That's when the protagonist absolutely can't turn back anymore.

DeadlyAccurate said:
The plot to my last book doesn't begin until chapter 3 (don't remember the page number; probably in the 20s). Chapter 2 introduces a clue to the final reveal, but chapter 1 is action and introduction to the world and character.

My current book has the plot begin in the first chapter, before the first 10 pages, I think, though the reader doesn't really find out what the heroine is in for until another dozen pages or so.

Thank you, Reilly.

Reilly616 said:
Going by what your plot point is, I would say that that point is fine Good luck!

Plot Device · Jul 12, 2008

Now THIS is one honkin' huge chunk of advice here! Wow!

I jave never met any other writer (I guess I don;t get out much) who talks about the "emotional journey thread." I always craft an emotional infratsructure into my scripts and engineer a specific sequence of emotional ups and downs in them. No one else ever talks about that. Either you and I are the only two weirdos on Earth who do this or I am just NOT reading the right how-to books on writing that address this.

Use Her Name said:
Strangely enough, I write using page counts and so on, but from the view point that I have 350 pages instead of 100.

The emotional journey thread begins at page 3, the action thread begins at page 1, the initiating incident is at page 6. At page 25, the first reversal/ plot point, and about each 20 pages thereafter some sort of major conflict, with other conflicts and miniature plot points popping in in between. I have a new scene each 3-5 pages. It's divided into 65 page sections (five acts like a Greek play). At dead center (the very end of the third 65 page set) the balance of power shifts to the antagonist. If this were a car trip movie, the destination would have been reached and the story totally "changed." The action is ramped up; the bodies start tumbling (so to speak). I wouldn't call the first half "set up" or introduction, it was more power-brokering. The good guys were in charge, so to speak. By the center, the bad guy figured out how to win, and now the good guys have to fight growing odds. (I had about 50 plot points per 150 pages). The good guys will get back in charge about 25-20 pages from the end.

I was actually trained first in theater, and television production, so I tend to work as though I were writing a screen play. I don't see much difference between writing for film or writing for the page. In a 3 act play, there is a beginning middle and ending, and in a novel too. If you just divide your novel (like I did,) into 5ths with 1/3/1 as the page count, you can plot where your Events should happen. Although some writers might foo-foo this, I find that knowing where exactly to put your "events" is a huge help to shaping and the tempo of the work.

This is all for the first draft. The later edits will probably show me a few extra things to take out, and some new ones to put in.

It is a highly organized way to do it. Just say "I need 5 things to happen between page XX and page XX --Hmmm. What will those things be?" And it is like you are saying, I have ten seconds of film here, what sort of scene can I write?

Thank you for that wonderful bridge between film and novel. I needed that.

.

Plot Device · Jul 12, 2008

WannabeWriter said:
The point where the plot gets interesting doesn't have to be on page one, but it shouldn't be beyond 20 pages or 3 chapters.

blacbird said:
Something, something, has to happen on page one. It doesn't have to be an explosion with lots of body parts flying around. It doesn't even have to be a direct plot element. What it does have to be is something to convince the reader to trust the writer to continue to deliver the goods as the book goes along. That something could be as simple as really spiffy writing (think Cormac McCarthy), or a situation so curious and compelling you have to read on (think Gabriel Garcia Marquez). But it has to be something.

caw

Now you guys got me itchin' to go ahead and post the first five pages.

I believe I did successfully achieve the introduction on Page 1 of an interesting emotional hook for the reader to like the MC and to sympathize with him and to want to keep hanging with him. Maybe I'll post it later this weekend.

Plot Device · Jul 12, 2008

Danger Jane said:
This is a very good rule of thumb, I think. I've never yet thought to much on structure in my stories, but my inciting incident does occur by the end of the 1500-word chapter 1, and by the end of chapter 2 I'm working the "main plot" strongly into the initial incident. And my point of no return--the first BIG one--will occur sometime around page 40.

Having two protagonists, though, there are really two points of no return for the beginning third of the story. MC #1's is on page two of her the first chapter. MC #2's is partway through her third chapter, the sixth in the story. Stagger your checkpoints...your readers will thank you after they turn the last page.

I spent my teens years writing inexpert fiction and just thought it all could be free-form and whatever.

Then I started writing screenplays and made the same assumption. But as I sought formal training in screenplay writing, the big emphasis was always "Structure! Structure! Structure!"

Now that I'm heading back into novel writing, the structures for writing screenplays are dictating a lot of the mechanics of my novel writing, and I kinda like it. The freeform stuff was way too meandering. (Thus my need to even launch this thread.

)

How long before you should allow the BIG plot element to come into play?

A woman said to write like a man.

Electric Alien Fish Machine

Are you one, Herbert?

Fear the Death Ray

A woman said to write like a man.

Hapless Virago

Court Jester

A woman said to write like a man.

And thus we begin the edits

Fear the Death Ray

A woman said to write like a man.

Absolutely Fazed

Tortilla di Patate

Prodigiously Hanged

A woman said to write like a man.

A woman said to write like a man.

A woman said to write like a man.

A woman said to write like a man.

A woman said to write like a man.