may be a dumb question, but . . .

jwbajorek · Jul 7, 2008

okay i have browsed the forums but i haven't been able to come across anything, so i figured i would ask here . . .

If you use a proper noun, must you get permission from the source before referencing to said source?

For instance, in the novel i wrote i use the common Austrailian Wine brand "Yellowtail Shiraz" [mmm by the way, lol]

And i also made reference to the musical "Chicago"
And there are a couple smaller ones as well.
But yep, that is my question

Again, sorry if it is dumb.

Thank you

-jwbajorek

lawtowriting · Jul 7, 2008

No, you do not. Both examples you gave are fine to do without permission. If you start to quote from Chicago, however, you may need permission (depending on whether or not its fair use), but for just saying the title you don't need permission.

goldenquince · Jul 7, 2008

I don't think so...I was skimming through Evanovich's How I Write, and she says permission isn't necessary and sometimes the companies will even send you products. However, she cautions the writer to speak of the brand favorably.

As for business names, she writes that it's best to fictionalize the names unless it's large and a landmark, like 7-Eleven for instance.

That's all I have.

darrtwish · Jul 7, 2008

Ditto to all of the above.

jwbajorek · Jul 7, 2008

Alright.
Thanks all.
Makes sense. Lol, gives me one less thing to worry about

jennifer75 · Jul 7, 2008

jwbajorek said:
For instance, in the novel i wrote i use the common Austrailian Wine brand "Yellowtail Shiraz" [mmm by the way, lol]

-jwbajorek

Warning - HUGE DERAILMENT!

Oh hell yea I love me some Yellowtail Shiraz! I don't recommend the Cab Shiraz however...totally not the same. You know who has a great Shiraz.....TRADER JOES!!!! It's their $2 bottle I'm not sure who makes it, but all you have to do is find the $2 wine shelf, usually an endcap to one of the isles. Love it!

jennifer75 · Jul 7, 2008

lawtowriting said:
If you start to quote from Chicago, however, you may need permission (depending on whether or not its fair use), but for just saying the title you don't need permission.

Really? That's amazing. So...if my MC went t see the play, and recited something to a friend who couldn't make it, for example, would I need permission to use the exact quote? That sounds rediculous, I must be misunderstanding your post.

jennifer75 · Jul 7, 2008

goldenquince said:
I don't think so...I was skimming through Evanovich's How I Write, and she says ...

Sorry, another HUGE DERAILMENT!!!

Checked out her site, and found this wonderully put statement:

Q. What is your workday like?

JANET: I drag myself out of bed around 5:00 a.m. and shove myself into the clothes lying on the floor. I eat a boring breakfast of coffee and yogurt. Then I shuffle into the office I share with a really rude parrot. I stare at the computer screen for about four hours, sometimes actually typing some sentences. I chew gum and drink diet soda to keep myself from falling out of my chair in a catatonic stupor. At noon I'm suddenly filled with energy and rush to the refrigerator, hoping a pineapple upside-down cake with lots of whipped cream has mysteriously appeared. Finding none, I make a tuna or peanut butter and olive sandwich. I go back to my office and visualize myself getting exercise. I play an amazing game of mental tennis. In my mind's eye, I look great in the little tennis dress. Very athletic. When I'm done playing tennis, I stare at the computer screen some more. When nothing appears on the screen, I drive down to the local store and buy a bag of Cheez Doodles. I eat the Cheez Doodles and manage to actually write several pages. When I'm done with the Doodles and pages, I wander out of my office looking for someone to whine at because I just made myself fat. I alternate typing and whining for the rest of the afternoon until about 5:00, when I emerge from my office, once again hoping for the pineapple cake.

FARKING FABUTASTIC!!!!!

Eldritch · Jul 7, 2008

JWB,
Your question wasn't dumb. It's one that many of us have probably had.
On the first page of my MG novel, I made a refrence to gelatin salad. An agent at a conference workshop told me it was okay to just call it Jello.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 7, 2008

jennifer75 said:
Really? That's amazing. So...if my MC went t see the play, and recited something to a friend who couldn't make it, for example, would I need permission to use the exact quote? That sounds rediculous, I must be misunderstanding your post.

How would it be ridiculous? You'd be reproducing someone else's copyrighted words, so you'd need permission.

A few brief words from the dialogue text would probably be OK as "fair use", but you don't have that much leeway in quoting the lyrics of the songs under US copyright law.

lawtowriting · Jul 7, 2008

Jennifer75,

You didn't misunderstand my post. The reason you can refer to titles of works without permission is because artists can't copyright the titles of their works. The works themselves, however, are copyrighted. So, whenever you quote directly from someone else's work, there's a possibility of copy infringement. Now, there's a huge exception to copyright infringement called "fair use" which takes into account a number of factors, including how much of the material is being used in comparison to the entire work (i.e., quoting one sentence from a song is more likely to be infringement than quoting one sentence of a book).

jennifer75 · Jul 7, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
How would it be ridiculous? You'd be reproducing someone else's copyrighted words, so you'd need permission.

A few brief words from the dialogue text would probably be OK as "fair use", but you don't have that much leeway in quoting the lyrics of the songs under US copyright law.

I think I have some lyrics quoted in my WIP that I'll have to find and change.

jennifer75 · Jul 7, 2008

lawtowriting said:
Jennifer75,

You didn't misunderstand my post. The reason you can refer to titles of works without permission is because artists can't copyright the titles of their works. The works themselves, however, are copyrighted. So, whenever you quote directly from someone else's work, there's a possibility of copy infringement. Now, there's a huge exception to copyright infringement called "fair use" which takes into account a number of factors, including how much of the material is being used in comparison to the entire work (i.e., quoting one sentence from a song is more likely to be infringement than quoting one sentence of a book).

Thank you for clarifying. Sooooo much to learn.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 7, 2008

jennifer75 said:
I think I have some lyrics quoted in my WIP that I'll have to find and change.

Quoting song lyrics can be expensive or difficult, even for highly successful, multi-published writers like Neil Gaiman. See his blog entry on it here.

Clair Dickson · Jul 7, 2008

goldenquince said:
As for business names, she writes that it's best to fictionalize the names unless it's large and a landmark, like 7-Eleven for instance.

Related question-- but if you're trying to build local flavor, this doesn't quite apply, correct?

If my story is set in Michigan and I refer to a Meijer store (which is regional chain, but not national) then that differentiates my story by giving it that local flavor. Or if I refer to Cap'n Frosty which is just a local ice cream shop with it's one home location.

Though, I imagine one might want to be careful with these lesser known places because a reader might get lost unless they're a local yokel, too.

Or have I exited left field and entered the stands?

Matera the Mad · Jul 7, 2008

There are no dumb questions, only dumb thread titles that do not reflect the content in any way so that everyone has to waste time loading them to find out what they are about.

Tuppence inserted.

Bayley · Jul 8, 2008

Names are allowed, but only certain references to them.

For instance:
'I thought Chicago was brilliant.'
Is fine, in fact they'll love you for saying that.

However:
'Isn't Chicago rubbish? It's the worst musical ever.'
That probably won't be appreciated.

Melenka · Jul 8, 2008

Without the ability to use brand names, writers of thriller/crime/mystery novels would be horribly out of luck. A gun is not just a gun. Now, I seriously doubt that Glock is going to send me free samples because I mention their product favorably, but it wouldn't hurt their sales (you know, if there was a snowball's chance in hell that my novel would be published).

Harper K · Jul 8, 2008

Bayley said:
Names are allowed, but only certain references to them.

For instance:
'I thought Chicago was brilliant.'
Is fine, in fact they'll love you for saying that.

However:
'Isn't Chicago rubbish? It's the worst musical ever.'
That probably won't be appreciated.

Maybe not appreciated, but also not disallowed. You have to go farther than expressing a negative opinion of a work to get you in legal trouble; reviewers express negative opinions of works in newspapers, magazines, and books all the time. To really get in trouble with the people who have a stake in Chicago, you'd have to say something that could actually cause financial damage to current and future productions of the musical, or cause DVD sales of the movie to plummet. Something like claiming it was written as political propaganda, or saying that people who watch the "Cell Block Tango" scene wind up with incurable cataracts, or something nutty like that. Or, committing defamation of character against people involved with the show:

Lisa rushed in with yesterday's New York Times. Looking shell-shocked, she pointed to an article in the Theater section. "Did you know that Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera held guns to the heads of Fosse, Kander, and Ebb and told them that if they didn't write a show they could both star in, they'd blow all three of their heads off? That's the only reason Chicago exists today!"

I gaped at her. "Are you kidding?"

"Not at all!" Lisa said. "Chita Rivera just confessed everything."

Probably wouldn't fly.

jennifer75 · Jul 8, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Quoting song lyrics can be expensive or difficult, even for highly successful, multi-published writers like Neil Gaiman. See his blog entry on it here.

They mention quoting lyrics in fiction, does this apply if quoted for use in a memoir??? I imagine...but had to ask.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 8, 2008

jennifer75 said:
They mention quoting lyrics in fiction, does this apply if quoted for use in a memoir??? I imagine...but had to ask.

Same laws apply, yes.

jennifer75 · Jul 8, 2008

Are there any other blogs/sites that go over the simplest rules and regulations when it comes to quoting in you writing?

Melenka · Jul 8, 2008

This is one place to start: copyright basics

Since copyright is an entire area of law unto itself, you can get lost in the minutia for years. I wouldn't recommend it unless you like that sort of trauma.

Bayley · Jul 8, 2008

satori said:
Maybe not appreciated, but also not disallowed. You have to go farther than expressing a negative opinion of a work to get you in legal trouble.

Really? For some reason I always thought you couldn't say anything bad about a product. That's cool.

But what about facts that are true but they don't want you to know?
For instance:

'Primark's clothes are created in sweatshops'

Would that be allowed if it is true? And if I had evidence backing up the claim?

okay i have browsed the forums but i haven't been able to come across anything

Oh, I found another post on brand names, if it's any use:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103261

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 8, 2008

Bayley said:
Really? For some reason I always thought you couldn't say anything bad about a product. That's cool.

But what about facts that are true but they don't want you to know?
For instance:

'Primark's clothes are created in sweatshops'

Would that be allowed if it is true? And if I had evidence backing up the claim?

In the US, truth is an absolute defense against libel. Other countries' laws differ on this point, though.

may be a dumb question, but . . .

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