How many scenes would a 90k book have?

Bayley · Jul 3, 2008

On average, how many scenes would you expect to find in a book with around 90,000 words. I know it's hugely variable, but I was just curious as I am outlining my second novel (I'm halfway through writing the first) and I think it will be too long. I know 90k is close to the maximum a unpublished author could normally get an agent for, although there have been a few exceptions.

The thing is, I don't want to write 200k, only to have to cut out half the book. It would make more sense to cut things out at the outline.

So I was just wondering how many scenes a book around 90k would have (I would also like the know the word count for each scene, but I can calcuate that using the word count for the total novel and the number of scenes).

Very grateful for any help.

brokenfingers · Jul 3, 2008

It sounds like you would benefit from The Marshall Plan For Novel Writing. According to it, a 90,000 word book should have 72 sections (scenes) broken down like this:

Beginning: 18

Middle: 32

End: 18

For a total of 72.

Good luck with your writing.

Mel · Jul 3, 2008

I'd think that would be awfully stifling, but that's just me. I look at it the same way as a chapter, it's as long or short as it needs to be.

Jake Barnes · Jul 3, 2008

How many scenes would a 90k book have? Depends how long your scenes are. Lee Child, in some of the older Jack Reacher novels would have about thirty chapters with a half dozen scenes per chapter for 180 scenes. Now he has shorter chapters, more chapters, but fewer scenes. Oh, and 18 + 32 + 18 = 68.

Kalyke · Jul 3, 2008

I think it is up to the length of the scenes, the style of the writer and so on, there is no rule.

maestrowork · Jul 3, 2008

CaroGirl · Jul 3, 2008

People count scenes?

Scenes are variable enough to be as long as a chapter and as short as a single word. I don't think worrying about counting your scenes is important or productive.

Bayley · Jul 3, 2008

Mel said:
I'd think that would be awfully stifling, but that's just me. I look at it the same way as a chapter, it's as long or short as it needs to be.

It's not like I'm going to follow it exactly. Like 'I can't have the scene where they catch the murderer as I can only have 68 scenes in the book'. The reason I want to know is if I had 324 scenes, then it would be worth condensing dramatically before I write the book.

I guess I'm just afraid I'll end up writing 400k and ending up having to delete 300k.

willietheshakes · Jul 3, 2008

1.

Or more.

It depends, really.

maestrowork · Jul 3, 2008

Bayley said:
It's not like I'm going to follow it exactly. Like 'I can't have the scene where they catch the murderer as I can only have 68 scenes in the book'. The reason I want to know is if I had 324 scenes, then it would be worth condensing dramatically before I write the book.

I guess I'm just afraid I'll end up writing 400k and ending up having to delete 300k.

I hear what you're saying. There are no definite number but one can get too carried away and have too many. If you have 400 scenes in a 90K-word novel, then your scenes are probably too short and too rushed.

I'd say you need to have at least a page or two for each scene, just to play it out. Obviously, you can have shorter and longer ones, but I'd say no shorter than a couple of paragraphs.

Charlie Horse · Jul 3, 2008

I'm sorry, but are there really writers who think like that? When I start writing I have no idea how many scenes my book is going to have. And when I'm done it has as many scenes as it takes to tell the story, which, by the way, I don't think I would ever go back and count.

I'm not trying to be mean, but it all just seems quite irrelevant.

brokenfingers · Jul 3, 2008

Oops, that should've read 18 - 36 - 18.

And while Marshall's book doesn't suit my style, and while I agree that there are no concrete "rules" as far as amounts of scenes go - some people benefit from a rigid structure when first starting out to write a novel.

One of the most crippling dilemmas for beginning writers is the fact that there are TOO MANY decisions. It can paralyze some writers and hamper their writing.

So while I wouldn't recommend Marshall's book for everyone (including me), it is a very structured, methodical book and some might find it useful to get a first draft out.

Takvah · Jul 3, 2008

Good grief... this is the kind of stuff that ends up making me neurotic and slows me down. That's when I have to go back to a lesson learned in my youth... it's sage I tell you, and can be applied to almost any situation... but ESPECIALLY, writing.

CaroGirl · Jul 3, 2008

brokenfingers said:
Oops, that should've read 18 - 36 - 18.

That would make a really weird-sized woman. Barbie, if she were a real woman, is 36-18-33. Maybe try that.

nevada · Jul 3, 2008

maestrowork said:
42.

brokenfingers · Jul 3, 2008

Takvah said:
Good grief... this is the kind of stuff that ends up making me neurotic and slows me down. That's when I have to go back to a lesson learned in my youth... it's sage I tell you, and can be applied to almost any situation... but ESPECIALLY, writing.

Yes, well let's not make the mistake of thinking that everybody thinks the same or writes the same or responds to everything in the same manner and so should write the same as you or I do.

Some people like structure, routine and order when beginning a daunting new task.

In the Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi didn't have Danny do Flying Crane Kicks when starting out. He had him begin with the 'Wax on, Wax off" rigid routine to help him begin.

donroc · Jul 3, 2008

Before this thread I had never encountered mention "scene" counts for novels, not even in the great Plimpton Paris Review interviews with writers in the late 1950s.

Takvah · Jul 3, 2008

brokenfingers said:
Yes, well let's not make the mistake of thinking that everybody thinks the same or writes the same or responds to everything in the same manner and so should write the same as you or I do.

Some people like structure, routine and order when beginning a daunting new task.

In the Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi didn't have Danny do Flying Crane Kicks when starting out. He had him begin with the 'Wax on, Wax off" rigid routine to help him begin.

Mr. Miyagi could have learned a thing or two from ol' Booger. Imagine Pat Morita teaching Rebecca DeMornay(sp?) how to wax on and wax off on that train... hmmmmm, ok that's a pretty vile thought and I digress.... regimented and storytelling don't go together in my mind, but hey, if people think a formula will serve to sell a book... they can knock themselves out.

Robert Farley · Jul 3, 2008

Reminds me of an old joke: how many drops of water in the ocean?

One. One big drop.

But seriously, looks like you have your answer. Your question is one I think about often when watching hour dramas. How much work goes into producing the segments to time out at exactly the same time every time. Every 11 minutes or so, with usually two-minute beginning and ending, and to do it so it cuts at a part where the audience just has to stay for the next bit. How does that relate to page count, word count, and so on? I might not always like the stories, but gotta give props to the ability to write to the template.

Robert<><>

Robert Farley · Jul 3, 2008

Charlie Horse said:
I'm sorry, but are there really writers who think like that? When I start writing I have no idea how many scenes my book is going to have. And when I'm done it has as many scenes as it takes to tell the story, which, by the way, I don't think I would ever go back and count.

I'm not trying to be mean, but it all just seems quite irrelevant.

I've encountered editors and publishers who require some kind of adherence to the "scene count." Certain things need to happen in certain areas for different kinds of books. Readers, though they don't realize it, expect this and make those books (or movies) successful. (I think that's how the scene counters come up with their statistics.) Ideally, writers will either consciously or unconsciously keep to the count in some form and will come up with something that's stood the test of at least a little time.

On the other hand, you have to remember that most great writers or great anything get that way by trampling all over the norms, even though it might have taken them years and years of trampling to get there.

Robert<><>

Clarec · Jul 3, 2008

I wouldn't know how to categorise a scene either so I've no idea how many I have or how many a book should have. I find that plotting the story and writing it the best you can is all I can do really. If it's way too long, I'll just have to chop it. If it's too short I either need to come up with a decent sub plot (no point padding for the sake of it) or hope the story is good enough to bear the small length.

I think the only thing I try to keep conscious track of is the action - I like a lot of action in the books I read and want to keep that level in anything I write. So I'm looking for a good three or four high action scenes in a book of about that length. With possibly a few more dramatic moments too, keep the pace up and keep the story moving forward.

Clare

BlueLucario · Jul 3, 2008

brokenfingers said:
Oops, that should've read 18 - 36 - 18.

and that's my waist size.

I don't think there's a black and white answer to this. I think that depends on how you write the story.

dwellerofthedeep · Jul 3, 2008

I don't think it matters too much, but I count scenes myself. I like plotting by scene so that's what my outline consists of, rather than chapters so it's convenient for me. My first book had 132 scenes or something like that, each in a separate word document.

BfloGal · Jul 3, 2008

It depends on your own average scene length. I outline by the scene too, and I know that my scenes are on the short side (I average 1000 words per scene), so if my plotted scenes numbered 70, I'd expect the finished work to be about 70,000. If I wanted it longer, I'd have to add another twist to my plot, and try to get a few more scenes.

JustGo · Jul 3, 2008

I don't think it matters. Write as many scenes as you need to in order to tell your story, and don't worry about it unless your betas/agent/editor start complaining.

How many scenes would a 90k book have?

Happiness is underrated

Walkin' That Road

Never be completely back to normal.

Fear the Death Ray

Living the dream

Happiness is underrated

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Fear the Death Ray

Speaking in metaphors

Walkin' That Road

Not a D list ego massager...

Living the dream

Walkin' That Road

Historicals and Horror rule

Not a D list ego massager...

Blood Elves FTW

Electric Alien Fish Machine

Lost in a plot hole

Digging through graves of giants