Love/Hate Grammar? Got Questions? Ask this guy

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jay Solomon

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
221
Reaction score
7
Location
San Francisco
Website
www.thezenofsouthpark.com
Hello, hello,

This is Jay Solomon, author of the upcoming The Zen of South Park, and I'm here to let you know that I'm a grammar nerd and simply love the subject. Today I blogged about the Oxford Comma, an important and controversial part of the author's grammatical weaponry (check it out at my blog).

If you have questions about grammar, its various forms and possibilities, or even just a paragraph or sentence that needs a little editing, please don't hesitate to post here or send it my way: [email protected]. I'm also open to editing nonfiction query letters so let me know if you need a little help.

Remember: There are no great writers, only great editors,
Jay
 

Kalyke

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,850
Reaction score
182
Location
New Mexico, USA
I happen to like grammar. I like that it has allowed me to be a good writer. I think all writers should become good with the tools of the trade. Grammar, spelling, the construction of plots, Rhetoric, imagination and all the other things that together make up the tools of the writer's art.
 

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
449
Location
Austria
I have questions about using infixes in English.

Please help.

In English, the infix "-l-" is used to idicate the obesity of a person. It's only used with the proper name "Bob", though.

Bob --> Blob

There may be other instances, but I can't think of any right now.
 

Maryn

Not Any More
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
63,988
Reaction score
42,726
Location
Chair
The first word in my current novel is a popular infix. Quite the attention-grabber, that one.

Jay, I'm sure you mean well, but this is tiptoeing dangerously near self-promotion, so don't get too twizzled if it disappears, only to reappear in Announcement, Events, and Self-Promotion.

Meanwhile, nice to meet you. Welcome!

Maryn, firm handshake
 

Deleted member 42

I looked this up.

"An infix is an affix inserted inside another morpheme"

So, now I know.


Ummmm .... Use hyphens?

:D

There really is one, or rather, a cluster of closely related morphemes, in English.

Hey Shweta!
 

Shweta

gone
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
6,509
Reaction score
2,730
Location
Away
:eek:
...yes, she said with trepidation?

ETA: Okay, here's one: what's the effect of using the passive voice as opposed to the active? :grins at Dawnstorm:
 
Last edited:

Prawn

Writing is finite,revising infinite
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
2,361
Reaction score
429
Location
Beast Coast
I am pretty sure that fucking is an infix for polysyllabic words

Un-fucking-believeable
Gi-fucking-gantic
Im-fucking-possible
Poly-fucking-syllabic

It is an intensifier. It is a very handy word, which is perhaps why so many people like fucking.
 

Deleted member 42

I am pretty sure that fucking is an infix for polysyllabic words

Un-fucking-believeable
Gi-fucking-gantic
Im-fucking-possible
Poly-fucking-syllabic

It is the only infix English has ever had, and it's less than fifty years old, in terms of usage.
It is a very handy word, which is perhaps why so many people like fucking.

I'm pretty sure that's not the reason ;)
 

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
13,979
Reaction score
1,533
Location
Wisconsin's (sore) thumb
Website
www.firefromthesky.org
HI! I'm Matera the Mad and I am here to answer all your questions about total infuckingsanity!

Woowoowoowoowoowoowoo!

gotta be another infix around here somewhere... searches through unnamable stuff on the floor...

ETA: migawd he's a verbose *******
 
Last edited:

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
449
Location
Austria
ETA: Okay, here's one: what's the effect of using the passive voice as opposed to the active? :grins at Dawnstorm:

The other way has been looked. It was whistled and the shadows were shuffled into. Grammar has been bent, too, but it was ignored. Mostly.

Medievalist said:
It is the only infix English has ever had, and it's less than fifty years old, in terms of usage.

Here's one:

If "fucking" in "absofuckinglutely" is an infix, why isn't "black" in "blackbird" a prefix?
 

Shweta

gone
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
6,509
Reaction score
2,730
Location
Away
The other way has been looked. It was whistled and the shadows were shuffled into. Grammar has been bent, too, but it was ignored. Mostly.

:ROFL:
Here's one:

If "fucking" in "absofuckinglutely" is an infix, why isn't "black" in "blackbird" a prefix?
ooh, ooh, I know!
 

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
13,979
Reaction score
1,533
Location
Wisconsin's (sore) thumb
Website
www.firefromthesky.org
Ooo, I knowz Y -- "bird" is a non-mammalian suffix, and you can't have a prefix and a suffix in the same word unless you apply a hotfix before an infix in a fixed ratio, else you'll find yourself in a fix, unless the bird is a hoopoe.
 

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
449
Location
Austria
Ooo, I knowz Y -- "bird" is a non-mammalian suffix, and you can't have a prefix and a suffix in the same word unless you apply a hotfix before an infix in a fixed ratio, else you'll find yourself in a fix, unless the bird is a hoopoe.

Almost. Actually, blackbird is a circumfix around an elided root. But few know that. [And, yes, the elided root is "hoopoe".]

Schweta said:
ooh, ooh, I know!

See? Schweta knows that, too.

(Seriously, I actually don't know the answer exactly, though I know enough about it that I guessed it falls into your expertise.)
 

Shweta

gone
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
6,509
Reaction score
2,730
Location
Away
Almost. Actually, blackbird is a circumfix around an elided root. But few know that.
:ROFL:

See? Schweta knows that, too.
I'm a shweta, not a schwa :D

black- isn't a prefix because it's a free morpheme. As I understand it, all affixes are bound morphemes. One day, however, the in-anti-tion-dities will rise up against the tyranny of linguistic hierarchy and take up their rightful place beside their fellow morphemes. And on that day, oh, on that day, bl- and -ood will run free.

(I bet they'll still keep the phonesthemes down, though.)
 

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
449
Location
Austria
black- isn't a prefix because it's a free morpheme. As I understand it, all affixes are bound morphemes.

I agree that all affixes are bound morphemes. But if "fucking" is an infix, then you'll have to analyse "fucking" as a bound morpheme (which is interesting, as "fucking" itself contains the free morpheme "fuck" and the bound morpheme "ing"). So there has to be some sort of derivation going on. But if we accept a bound morpheme derived from the two-morpheme word "fucking", why can't we accept a single bound morpheme, derived from a single-morpheme word, "black"? (Say, black).

So, you could say:

"That's fucking great!"

And

"That's gr-fucking-8!"

What's the difference? Why adverb in the former and infix the latter? Why isn't this unusual syntax, rather than unusual morphology?

One day, however, the in-anti-tion-dities will rise up against the tyranny of linguistic hierarchy and take up their rightful place beside their fellow morphemes. And on that day, oh, on that day, bl- and -ood will run free.

:eek:

It's the apofucackinglypse!


(I bet they'll still keep the phonesthemes down, though.)

Hey, new word! I haven't come across that one before!

***

Edit: I just noticed there's a frownie heading this thread. Could this have been edited in as a reaction to the reactions in this thread?
 
Last edited:

Shweta

gone
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
6,509
Reaction score
2,730
Location
Away
Well, the English infix is just weird all round. So no reason why it'd have to work like other English affixes. I should perhaps say that normal affixes in English are bound morphemes. The infix is the start of the revolution, I guess.

As far as I can tell it has to go in words of at least 3 syllables, with one stressed syllable before the infix and one after.

So:

fan
-fucking-tastic
abso-fucking-lutely
ambi-fucking-dextrous
but:
* awe-fucking-some
* gr-fucking-eat
*stu-fucking-pid
??black-fucking-bird


Maybe 2 syllables is okay if both are stressed...

Also what's going on with this one not working?:
* abomi-fucking-nable
I guess the end is... minor (secondary? tertiary?) stress at best...
 

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
449
Location
Austria
As far as I can tell it has to go in words of at least 3 syllables, with one stressed syllable before the infix and one after.

So:

fan
-fucking-tastic
abso-fucking-lutely
ambi-fucking-dextrous
but:
* awe-fucking-some
* gr-fucking-eat
*stu-fucking-pid
??black-fucking-bird


Maybe 2 syllables is okay if both are stressed...

Also what's going on with this one not working?:
* abomi-fucking-nable
I guess the end is... minor (secondary? tertiary?) stress at best...

Actually, I do think "gr-fucking-eight" or more likely "guh-fucking-rate" works (but you'd have to draw out the "gr/g" a bit). I don't think it's the number of syllables, as much as the stress pattern. Basically, the main stress of the resulting word comes after the "fucking". (I actually think I heard "g-fucking-rate" or some variation in some film; welsh accent perhaps? Twin Town? Unsure, and I could be utterly wrong, too.) [Edit: Google gives me 9 hits for "g-fucking-rate"; not a wealth of evidence, but then I'd expect that more in spoken language, anyway.]

The prosodic function of the "fucking", I think, is to prolong the tension before the climax. da(da)-dada-DUM(da). Which is why, I think, you need the main stress after "fucking".

It's also why I think it's:

unbe-fucking-lievable, but not:

*un-fucking-believable. (Again, I have no evidence that this is actually not okay. Just thinking out loud here.)

Actually, if "fucking" is an affix, is it an infix in the above, considering that it could just be the last in a series of prefixes? Same as in "ambi-fucking-dextrous", where it doesn't interrupt any morpheme, but sits right between two. It's not really an infix in these cases; more like a prefix. To me, this flexibility of position suggests that it's actually a question of word-compounding not affixation.

So what are the advantages of calling "fucking" (in this function) an infix? I've never really thought about this in depth. [Er, I think this may just go beyond Grammar for Grasshoppers. Should we move the discussion?]

Well, the English infix is just weird all round. So no reason why it'd have to work like other English affixes. I should perhaps say that normal affixes in English are bound morphemes. The infix is the start of the revolution, I guess.

But that's mostly a question of theory and terminology. In what ways does "fucking" behave like an infix? In what ways doesn't it? And do we - on balance - have a case for calling it an "infix", whithout collapsing the system.
 
Last edited:

Shweta

gone
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
6,509
Reaction score
2,730
Location
Away
unbe-fucking-lievable, but not:

*un-fucking-believable. (Again, I have no evidence that this is actually not okay. Just thinking out loud here.)

Actually I'd say it was more likely to be un-fucking-believable. When I say the two out loud that sounds much better to me. I have trouble with it interrupting something I know to be a morpheme.

Actually, if "fucking" is an affix, is it an infix in the above, considering that it could just be the last in a series of prefixes? Same as in "ambi-fucking-dextrous", where it doesn't interrupt any morpheme, but sits right between two. It's not really an infix in these cases; more like a prefix. To me, this flexibility of position suggests that it's actually a question of word-compounding not affixation.
If it wasn't an infix it could never interrupt morphemes.




Veering back to the OP, I'm afraid this is the sort of thing that happens if you wander in and say you'll answer all questions. Do feel free to join in the games -- we do love other grammar nerds! But also, do bear in mind that this place has its share of language experts who've been answering questions for rather a long time :)
 
Last edited:

Maryn

Not Any More
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
63,988
Reaction score
42,726
Location
Chair
Uh-oh. I think I may have had years of lost days...

Maryn, who raised kids
 

Deleted member 42

black- isn't a prefix because it's a free morpheme. As I understand it, all affixes are bound morphemes. One day, however, the in-anti-tion-dities will rise up against the tyranny of linguistic hierarchy and take up their rightful place beside their fellow morphemes. And on that day, oh, on that day, bl- and -ood will run free.

(I bet they'll still keep the phonesthemes down, though.)

Yep.
 

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,752
Reaction score
449
Location
Austria
Actually I'd say it was more likely to be un-fucking-believable. When I say the two out loud that sounds much better to me. I have trouble with it interrupting something I know to be a morpheme.

Counterevidence to my hypothesis right there. :D

On the other hand, you've just said you have trouble using it as an infix. ;)

See:

If it wasn't an infix it could never interrupt morphemes.

What everyone agrees about is that with "fucking" we have unit that sometimes interrupts morphemes.

It behaves like infixes do in other languages.

According to the if-it-quacks-like-a-duck theory, it has to be an infix.

But according to the if-it-looks-like-a-duck, it has to be a word (see, it contains morphemes: "fuck"+"ing"; morphemes don't contain morphemes).

You've already defined "infix" as "affix" and "affix" as "a bound morpheme". So the element in "fucking" in "fucking ambidextrous" and "ambifuckingdextrous", are not the same element, even if they look like it.

Problem: Quacks like a duck, but looks like... two ducks tied together? Um, the metaphor fails me here.

So: it interrupts a morpheme, so it has to be an infix. Which means that anything that interrupts a morpheme has to be an infix. Which means that the infix has been zero-derived from the word "fucking", it's composite morphemes stripped of morpheme status. But where does it end?

What if I said, for the puprose of argument in this thread, "abso-I-bet-you-expected-fucking-here-lutely", or "abso-you're-not-getting-that-word-here-no-lutely". This is clearly on-the-spot improvisation, but I'm using a definite pattern here. How would you describe it?

I'm first making up a clause, then zero-deriving a morpheme from it, and then inserting it into the morpheme "-solute-"? To be honest, I find it a bit simpler to just say that I interrupted a morpheme with a clause.

To me it sounds like people are making up the zero-derivation step (unless you get around that in your theory somehow) in order to avoid facing up to the evidence that words can interrupt morphemes, if the speaker so wishes.

So what's the benefit of having "fucking" be an infix (apart from theoretic aesthetics)?

There's one thing I haven't addressed yet, and I'll go all the way back to Prawn's post for that:

For [duck] = [infix], "fucking":

- quacks like a duck
- doesn't really look like one

- but it might just fill the same ecological niche as one.

"Fucking" is an intensifier. Is there a clue in function?

I tend to think of inserting "fucking" into a morpheme as a weird sort of word compounding; but are there word compounds where one of the compound words is an intensifier? [I can't think of any.] I do think intensifier function lends itself better to infixes.

None of this is important to writers. Using it is far easier than describing it. ;)

Veering back to the OP, I'm afraid this is the sort of thing that happens if you wander in and say you'll answer all questions. Do feel free to join in the games -- we do love other grammar nerds! But also, do bear in mind that this place has its share of language experts who've been answering questions for rather a long time :)

Ah, but now we've also alienated eraser and erased a panda from the earth, in the process. All because of terminology/theory nitpicks. Can't help it. Suppose, I'm a junkie.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.