Occult related material in a Christian market

Hi, Kevin, and welcome to AW.

My first question is not on the appropriateness of it, but on correct use of terms. No one can "get saved out of a Wicca." Wicca is a religion, not an object. Although I'm thinking this is a typo here and you've done your research.

First and foremost, are you telling a gripping story? Are the characters 3-D or are they "evil snarky Wiccan chick" vs. "sweet wholesome Christian chick"? If your story grabs us by the throat and forces us to stay up till 3 am because we have to finish it, then I'd bet it would grab an agent--and teenage readers--the same way.

Oh--and if you fill out your profile we'll all have a better idea of who the new guy is.

If it's at a decent, polished 2nd-3rd draft stage, you can post the beginning in SYW. But keep in mind SYW is not for the faint of heart or thin of skin. We're there to help your work improve, not just pat it on the head and say, "nice job."

ETA: PM the first chapter to me. I'll be an honest critic--I use the sandwich method, but I don't flame or pat heads. (If your characters preach, however, I will 'argh' at you. Long story. Fair warning.)

Kev, if you can give your Wiccan characters admirable traits (some) and your Christian chick less-than-admirable traits (some), and/or have people do right things for wrong motivations, you'll have created multi-dimensional characters that engage the reader. Always a good thing.

One thing I hate is when the hero ALWAYS makes right choices, even when the results aren't what he expected. Makes me want to hissy-slap 'em.

Um, I hesitate to say this, but are you saying that wicca is evil?

IdiotsRUs said:

Um, I hesitate to say this, but are you saying that wicca is evil?

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IdiotsR, I didn't want to get into that, yanno? It's one of those discussions that tend to go downhill really fast. That's why I was trying to steer the posts away from beliefs and focus on writing issues.

I think the mods prefer we keep threads about writing and not ideologies.

Anyway, I'm hoping that Kevin's fiction simply uses the literary device of a snarky Wiccan vs. a sweet Christian. Because I'm not qualified to discuss in detail the fact that Wicca is not evil. Sure, I know a tick more than the basics, but that doesn't make me anywhere near an expert. And there are other sites for that--Beliefnet being my favorite.

So rather than say something that'll get me banned, I kept to the writing angle.


And, um, Kevin? Feel free to tell me to stop putting words in your mouth.

Just my "outsider" opinion, partly from lurking in so many other threads in the Christian forum as well as others on AW. The subject matter may be okay (trying to stay well away from specifics and the discussion generated in the last two posts), but the synopsis comes across as quite lecturing. I've seen this discussed in threads here regarding Christian fiction, as well as in the YA forum with discussion of stories that talk down to the readers. Generally speaking, readers won't read them, and editors know better than to buy them. Here are two threads I think are relevant:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86949
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99496

Why not snarky Christian chick versus sweet Wicca girl?

That would be far less of a cliche!

But isn't that cliche in itself? To do your Christian character as a clone of Mandy Moore in the movie "Saved"? I think there's way too much Christian bashing going on in the mainstream media. If I can think of one film where the only truly despicable character is the televangelist or the minister or the priest, I can think of a dozen.

I'd opt for multi-dimensional, conflicted characters, battling out their own salvation in their own (sometimes spot-on, sometimes misguided) ways.

I am very troubled by your idea. I realize that conversion from other religious belief is something deeply ingrained in Christian belief, and that your plot is based in that idea. However, please understand the implications of your story.

Imagine that instead of 'saving' this girl from Wicca, your character was saved from Judaism. The same kind of problems will result. Your reader goes back to high school, meets a classmate who is being raised Wiccan. Your reader might feel justified to engage in religious bigotry.

Please understand that Wiccans (or Jews or Buddhists or Hindus for that matter) don't like being target for conversion and are fearful of their children being coerced into changing religions. (Wiccans believe in free choice, but they and their children are often the target of conversion techniques that Christians are taught in church. Wiccans (and Jews, etc.) see these as no different from the techniques cults use.)

I don't think that making the Wiccan have some nice qualities is enough to help. Whatever ideas makes anyone think that Wiccans are not good people are not going to be changed by a little S & L (Wiccan shorthand for 'sweetness and light.')

Wouldn't it be better to have a Christian and Wiccan (and Jewish and Hindu) characters as friends, banding together against something truly bad? I'm not really asking you to write this, of course, but please consider the effect of the story on young (and older) Christian readers.

If you do insist on using the Wiccan angle, please be accurate. Study Wicca and don't go by the lies you may have been told, ie; Samhain is the god of death (Samhain is actually the 1st day of winter on the Irish and Wiccan calendar).

*waves in the general direction of NJ to see if Kevin's coming back*

Howdy Kev...

Not sure how much help I'll be on the writing end of things, but I might be of
some assistance otherwise, for I agree that accuracy is essential.

mark

My stance on religion in my novels is "if one is right, they all are."

Which is why Thor and Zeus are eating BBQ in the backyard while an atheist and an angel are co-writing a new version of the Bible.

But that's cause I am INSANE.

Really...3D characters and a gripping tale are all you need to have a good book. Or at least a fun to read book. Whether your book will be "good" as in morally...well, when you suggest that another religion needs to be saved (something that bugs a lot of people. Including me), then some people start gnashing their teeth.

<gnash gnash>

But, really, S.Fox has already summed up everything I've wanted to say on the topic ^_^


PS: Oh, other than, of course, good luck on your writing, welcome to AW and if you ever need any help, be sure to ask here, cause you will be bombarded with advice. If the advice came in the form of...arrows, then you'd be in trouble. That's why we use forums. Not arrows.

Zoombie said:

Which is why Thor and Zeus are eating BBQ in the backyard

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Thor doesn't like BBQ. Makes his hands sticky for when he's trying to quaff a flaggon of ale.

I have to agree and disagree.

Certainly, having a snarky Wiccan girl and nice Christian girl is cliche. And there are a lot of possibilities in having a snarky Christian girl and a nice Wiccan. However, let's remember that this is Christian fiction for the Christian Market. There is a presumption that Christianity is right. Although this may bother some people, they are not really the intended audience.

What about a story where a snarky Christian girl learns a lot about herself in the process of leading a nice Wiccan to Christ?

And honestly, being cliche does not seem to be detrimental to getting published in the Christian Fiction market. In fact, quite the opposite. *sigh*[SUP]TM[/SUP].

But this gang is working on changing that.

Speaking as a Christian who deals daily with Wiccans, I would like to see them un-demonized in Christian books. Just 'cause one isn't a Christian doesn't mean one is automatically e-vul.

I've met way more snarky Christians than Wiccans.

I've met more Wiccans who follow the Golden Rule better than those calling themselves Christians.

And I've met way more Wiccans who know their Bible better than the Christians. When it comes to spiritual debates it can get embarrassing.

Can't we all just get along? Jesus was nice to that (pagan) Roman soldier with the sick kid, yanno.

Just a thought.

I would suggest attending a few Wiccan functions -- for research. Just go and observe and listen, don't try to convert anyone, as it would be rude. They don't barge into churches on Sunday to make converts, after all.

There's nothing like seeing things for oneself rather than relying on what could be biased and/or questionable sources on the Net.

One commonality I've noted is that Wiccans dislike Satanists just as much as Christians do.

Gosh, could we all be on the same side?

Well, here I was writing this long PM to you, and it disappeared...

So I'll try posting the gist of it right here;

Not all witches are of the Wiccan belief, and not all Pagans consider their beliefs occult (loosely meaning hidden) because to us (a presumption, of course, and I apologize for the generalization) it is clear as day.

I am no longer a practicing witch, but even when I was one, it was not within the Wiccan faith. I am a 'former' witch, and that doesn't mean that I, when I gave it up, automatically was converted into Christianity, or was 'saved'... Actually it means that I (personally) developed into a state of non-believing.

Your plot might be intriguing if you (and I'm agreeing with everyone else here) bother to read up on witchcraft, and give it the proper regard. Christianity (as far as I've understood the basics of it) is in itself a beautiful and powerful message, but it has also been abused quite a lot throughout history by it's representatives.

With this post I only wanted to caution you that the step from Wiccan, as you call it - though witchcraft is indeed a much wider concept -to Christianity might not be equal to just a 'step-up' (as many Christians would prefer to call it) on the ladder of belief. It might be just the opposite (again in the Biblical way of thinking) as it was in my case. (Though I have always thought that I ended up with the sweet end of the lollipop)

There is little logic in the wonderful, and hard to understand, world of different beliefs. It is, however, a mistake to assume that the abandonement of one naturally leads to the other....

Roger J Carlson said:

However, let's remember that this is Christian fiction for the Christian Market. There is a presumption that Christianity is right. Although this may bother some people, they are not really the intended audience.

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This is a valid point. Christian fiction is often propaganda -- not in the pejorative sense it's usually used, but simply meaning a story whose basic purpose is to convince or extol the virtues of the Christian belief system.

It doesn't have to be that way, but in publishing reality it does, much like the romance genre mostly insists on a HEA ending.

One of my favorite writers is Graham Greene. His books A Burnt Out Case and The Heart Of The Matter got him labeled as a "Catholic" writer for a while. But they are surely books with a Christian theme -- the relation of deep faith to everyday life, and how extraordinary events, driven by human failings interact with that faith.

He was a brilliant novelist and a deep thinker, dealing with religious matters in a way that made them universal and important, whether you are a believer or not.

He wasn't much for the HEA, though.

Reading through all the posts I find a lot therein that needs to be considered! I also have concerns about a Christian writing about things they themselves oppose, be it Wiccan, or Mormon or whatever. Many anti-this or anti-that books have been written with many of them containing an abundance of misinformation about the non-Christian entity. The other thing I wonder about is a male writing about teenage girls –chicks. Can a guy really write with any credibility about the opposite sex? There is a danger her perhaps in the writer coming off as a purveyor of female clichés … I’ve looked at your profile and I see nothing therein that would seem to suggest any special insight into the female mind, especially the female teenager’s mind.

Sorry to say this, but now I'm wondering if the OP wasn't a drive-by to see how many people he could get up in arms...

rugcat said:

This is a valid point. Christian fiction is often propaganda -- not in the pejorative sense it's usually used, but simply meaning a story whose basic purpose is to convince or extol the virtues of the Christian belief system.

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Or to validate or reinforce a currently held belief. Not disagreeing, just extending. Some people want to be challenged in their faith. Others do not. There's nothing inherently right or wrong with books that do either.

It doesn't have to be that way, but in publishing reality it does, much like the romance genre mostly insists on a HEA ending.

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Good example. Every genre has its conventions. Some are stronger than others. The Christian market has some fairly strong conventions, and if you want to publish in that market, you'd better follow them.

I would agree with others here, though, that a book about Wicca should have some strong research behind it to reflect reality and not preconceived beliefs.

But that's good advice for any writing.

callalily61 said:

Sorry to say this, but now I'm wondering if the OP wasn't a drive-by to see how many people he could get up in arms...

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The beauty of free will is that no one has to get up in arms...

Roger J Carlson said:

The beauty of free will is that no one has to get up in arms...

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