Editing/Rewriting My Novel - "Major Overhauls"

s_whiticar · May 21, 2008

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering how many of you have done extensive overhauls to your novels with the editing process, as far as rewriting nearly every single work through second, third, fourth, fifth drafts?

My novel (which has been floating around in my brain for the past ten years or so) has really been through the meat grinder. With each new draft, I am always finding new ideas, things that seem to have been right under my nose the whole time. I seem to find a deeper relationship with my characters each trip around, and for the most part, I grow more pleased with the project each time I revise it. But (and many of you may feel the same with your own work) it never, ever feels like it is "done". This is now my fifth draft, which may well be my last on my own before I work with an editor. And after the editor, there will be more revising.

One thing has always remained: I can honestly say that I am happy with the story; I believe in it. Completely. I have written what I want to write. I can say that I haven't compromised my vision (be it good, mediocre or bad).

Also, do any of you keep track of major scenes that you "cut out" when you are editing your work? I keep a seperate document titled "Deleted Scenes" (usually open with my manuscript document) for that purpose. Even if a scene will not be used, I feel it doesn't hurt to keep it around, separated from the manuscript (using the old cut and paste), in case there may be information I might need, or even a way to condense it for use in the finished work. It may be trash, or it may have a little value somewhere.

Anyway, how much revision, and how many drafts do most of you go through before you feel your work is complete, or you are at least happy with it?

Scott.

johnzakour · May 21, 2008

s_whiticar said:
Hello Everyone,

I was wondering how many of you have done extensive overhauls to your novels with the editing process, as far as rewriting nearly every single work through second, third, fourth, fifth drafts?

My novel (which has been floating around in my brain for the past ten years or so) has really been through the meat grinder. With each new draft, I am always finding new ideas, things that seem to have been right under my nose the whole time. I seem to find a deeper relationship with my characters each trip around, and for the most part, I grow more pleased with the project each time I revise it. But (and many of you may feel the same with your own work) it never, ever feels like it is "done". This is now my fifth draft, which may well be my last on my own before I work with an editor. And after the editor, there will be more revising.

One thing has always remained: I can honestly say that I am happy with the story; I believe in it. Completely. I have written what I want to write. I can say that I haven't compromised my vision (be it good, mediocre or bad).

Also, do any of you keep track of major scenes that you "cut out" when you are editing your work? I keep a seperate document titled "Deleted Scenes" (usually open with my manuscript document) for that purpose. Even if a scene will not be used, I feel it doesn't hurt to keep it around, separated from the manuscript (using the old cut and paste), in case there may be information I might need, or even a way to condense it for use in the finished work. It may be trash, or it may have a little value somewhere.

Anyway, how much revision, and how many drafts do most of you go through before you feel your work is complete, or you are at least happy with it?

Scott.

I'm still editing books that were publisher in 2001. I'm never totally happy. But my process usually goes: think a lot, plot, write first draft, second draft fixes first, third draft tweaks the second. Then off to the publisher for their feedback and one more round of edits.

Now I usually happy with my manuscript the day it's due at the publishers.

Cassidy · May 21, 2008

Mine vary a fair bit. I aim for three drafts before submitting but the one I'm working on now is a 4th draft and there've been major changes each time. And it's not close to done yet. Feels like I've been working on it for awhile because I've taken chunks of time off for other projects, but we're talking a year, not ten-- I don't have that kind of patience! Mine are YA too, so they're shorter. Less to rewrite!

I actually keep a file called Deleted Scenes too... makes cutting stuff out less painful if it isn't gone forever. Though actually, it's pretty rare that I re-use anything or even go back and look at it. Still.. ya never know.

I don't submit unless I'm satisfied with a manuscript, but to be honest, even once stuff is published, I'm never totally happy. I don't read my books after they're published because if I looked, I'd probably still find things I'd like to change... But I'd rather be writing new stuff, so at some point I just decide it is time to let go and move on.

Paichka · May 21, 2008

I just realized that I hate three of my subplots -- I'm brutally cutting them from the narrative, and taking one of my relatively minor characters and making her the main POV character. She was SUPPOSED to die at the end, but she had other ideas.

The overall story arc will be the same when I'm done writing, but I've made some significant changes to relationships within the story.

SPMiller · May 21, 2008

Also, do any of you keep track of major scenes that you "cut out" when you are editing your work? I keep a seperate document titled "Deleted Scenes" (usually open with my manuscript document) for that purpose. Even if a scene will not be used, I feel it doesn't hurt to keep it around, separated from the manuscript (using the old cut and paste), in case there may be information I might need, or even a way to condense it for use in the finished work. It may be trash, or it may have a little value somewhere.

I can only answer this question, because I don't have a long history of novels.

But so far, I permanently delete all material I believe is inessential to my narrative. I don't save it, for fear that I might be tempted to try to reinsert it later.

rugcat · May 21, 2008

s_whiticar said:
Also, do any of you keep track of major scenes that you "cut out" when you are editing your work? I keep a seperate document titled "Deleted Scenes" (usually open with my manuscript document) for that purpose. Even if a scene will not be used, I feel it doesn't hurt to keep it around, separated from the manuscript (using the old cut and paste), in case there may be information I might need, or even a way to condense it for use in the finished work. It may be trash, or it may have a little value somewhere.

I've done some major revisions -- cutting 10K words when I decide the plot isn't working and adding 20 K of different stuff. Then I have to revise through the entire book to bring it in line with the new plot arc.

But I always keep my deletions. Sometimes the stuff I've cut is just as good as what I replace it with -- it just doesn't fit in with the rest of the book. Since I'm contracted for a series, there's always the chance I can tweak it and use at least some of it in a future novel, esp since it's often a complete little section of its own.

Of course, I'm lazy, so I hate to throw anything away I've spent time on.

Shara · May 22, 2008

I think it's perfectly normal to constantly rewrite. I've never yet met a writer who churns out a perfect first draft that they are happy with. This only happens when Hollywood portrays writers and, like everything else in Hollywood, it's a myth.

My writing process tends to go as follows. Nobody but me ever sees Draft 1, and then I do Draft 2 where I fix all the things I think are wrong. Draft 2 or 3 will go before the writers' group where it generally gets eviscerated, requiring another major rewrite for Draft 3/4, and then a further polish for Draft 4/5, and then there's normally a lot more tinkering before it's ready for me to start sending out.

More interesting is what people do with all the bits they cut. I, too, keep everything I delete, but this is mostly because I can't bear to permanently delete anything I've written, even if it is rubbish. I tend to rewrite a chapter at a time, keeping the old chapters in a file called 'old drafts'.

Shara

James81 · May 22, 2008

My intentions are to go through two sets of revisions at most.

I'm one of those people who believe that the first draft contains are most HONEST and REAL writing and with the exception of editting typos and checking for plot inconsistincies, as well as structure that, for the most part, you should leave it alone or you can rewrite yourself into oblivion.

James81 · May 22, 2008

Let me clarify...two sets of revisions before I start making submissions.

If I keep getting rejections, I'll revise again based on any comments I get.

tehuti88 · May 22, 2008

I try to write something the best I can the first time around, so revision is minimal--just smaller tweaks here and there as I go along.

HOWEVER...after a few years have passed, it's been enough time that I can usually see where I should have written things better. As for what I do then, I haven't had enough experience to say well, but I might "rewrite." I've done this with two projects so far (both in progress). In this case "rewriting" involves looking on the original version and keeping much of it intact but adding what needs to be added and clarifying what's mussed up--redoing mostly the same thing, just in my current style. I might add scenes but it's rare that I delete them.

I can't say how many "revisions" for my works because as I said, this isn't something I do much. I CAN say that one story I revised a few years ago, the revised chapters are looking outdated again! I don't know if I'll redo them yet again. I might have to let a few more years pass, or maybe I'll just let them stand as is. I tend to put disclaimers on my older writing (I write for the Web, not for publication) to let readers know when the story was written and if my style has changed since then so they can know that things will change as they go along. I'm at least constantly mentally revising things and seeing what could have been done better, even if I'm not physically revising...it just takes time sometimes for me to see how I could improve something. Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever feel a story is truly "finished"...I can never tell. I might think it's the best I can do today, but as for a few years down the line...

I can't speak as for submitting or publication of course as I have no experience with either.

Kalyke · May 22, 2008

I had to split my WIP into two books, because it was two books. The sub plot is now a complete plot all its own. At this point (45,945) it is even longer than the original story (22,136) which is still on the table. The revision is mainly on hold because I want to get the story written, rather than "the right words" chosen. Since I write chapter by chapter, the various chapters are in different stages of finish. Chapters written a while ago are more "done" than the chapters I wrote yesterday. Before I claim it is a viable first draft, all the chapters need to be of the same consistency.

I do keep material. I have had to remove some very good chapters which could stand alone as short stories. Some, like just lines of text or paragraphs don't get saved, but I do save things with potential. For example, I had some good dream/ flashback sequences, but then decided that there would be no "dreams" or flashbacks in the book. The dream sequences could make good beginnings for other small works.

Jake Barnes · May 22, 2008

I think as you continue writing, you become a better writer and this is the reason for the constant revising. At least I hope that is true in my case.

Phaeal · May 22, 2008

I do very extensive predraft notes (which may run as many pages as the completed work); most plot problems get fixed at this stage. My first drafts tend to be pretty clean. I study them to figure out which aspects of character, plot and theme need to be intensified, brought to the fore. The second draft should take care of this; it will also bring the word count down by 10-30%. The third draft concentrates on language and another word count reduction of 10-20%.

nevada · May 22, 2008

Lets talk about something else. When you say "work with an editor" do you mean you are going to pay someone to edit your book? Because I think that is unnecessary. You can edit your own book until it is right. I would say 99% of published writers edit their own books. Get a book called "Self-Editing For Fiction Writers". It's an amazing book. If you're only going to read one book on writing, that would be the one. If you read it before you write, you save yourself probably one or two drafts.

Don't pay someone precious money to edit your personality and style out of a book. You should never pay anyone anything to do with your book. Not an editor, not an agent before he sells the book (after he sells it he gets usually 15% of what he sells it for) not a publisher, nobody. The only person who should get money for your book is you. No exceptions.

Kalyke · May 22, 2008

nevada said:
I would say 99% of published writers edit their own books. ...
Don't pay someone precious money to edit your personality and style out of a book. You should never pay anyone anything to do with your book. Not an editor, not an agent before he sells the book (after he sells it he gets usually 15% of what he sells it for) not a publisher, nobody. The only person who should get money for your book is you. No exceptions.

I actually do not agree 100% with this. I dispute this because I've read Bios on writers, and most have someone else check their work. Some are "married" to their editor/ fact checker/ beta reader/secretary, some employ one.

Many writers would never have gotten on the shelves without editing by someone else, whether they are paid or not, an employee or a best friend. You need to have your work looked at by someone who is willing to go line-by line through it. Sometimes you need to pay this person.

I've always been under the impression that the successful writer does not get published by himself. Writing may be a solo art, but a team is necessary for publishing. Editing is also an art. It is not about sucking someone's personality out of their writing. A good editor is invisible.

In an ideal world, it would be great to be both a writer and an editor. Sadly, from the work of non-published writers it is very obvious why many of them are not published, and often a good edit by a professional will send them over that hurdle. Often writers are so in love with their own work that they do not have any judgment regarding it, whether they have read a book on editing or not.

nevada · May 22, 2008

For that reason you have beta readers. But most published writers do not pay anyone to edit their books. They get their book as close to perfect as they can and then they find an agent. The agent might suggest revisions which they do. When the book is sold the editor at the publishing house will most likely need revisions which also get done. But paying a professional book editor is rarely done by published writers. It's not needed. Writers should be capable, and are, of editing their own work. That's why, when you finish something, you put it away for a long time. Such as three months. At least. That way, when you go back to edit, the work is new and you read what you actually wrote, not what you intended to write.

ghuffman · May 22, 2008

s-whiticar:
<<Also, do any of you keep track of major scenes that you "cut out" when you are editing your work? I keep a seperate document titled "Deleted Scenes" (usually open with my manuscript document) for that purpose. Even if a scene will not be used, I feel it doesn't hurt to keep it around, separated from the manuscript (using the old cut and paste), in case there may be information I might need, or even a way to condense it for use in the finished work. It may be trash, or it may have a little value somewhere.>>

I have several stories that never see the light of day. I label them junk and keep them. I once took a major amount of a story from my junk file and got it pieced together and made into a whole new story. My critique group thought that was the best story I ever submitted to them.

underthecity · May 22, 2008

I understand your issues. I've posted something along this topic in the Roundtable forum.

allen

windyrdg · May 22, 2008

It all depends on what you call a "draft." A lot of times when I'm writing and the scene calls for a minor character, I make them XX or YY, or something. Eventually I have to go back and put a real name in. I had to do that with four chapters this morning and, as I went through adding the names, I tweaked the whole chapter. What's that called?

Also, sometimes I'll be watching TV or peeling a potato and I'll get this flash that in such and such scene, so and so should have said,"Blah, blah, blah." I'll scribble that down on a piece of paper and put it in when I get the time. Is that polishing, tweaking...or what? Regardless, it's the way I work.

Any time I make a major change, I label it Chapter 12B. (I store my chapters as separate files.) Once I decide which one stays and which one goes, I move the other into my Surplus Folder. I Keep a Master Folder on my desktop labeled with each book's name. Inside I have any pertinent documents like scene ideas, spreadsheets, and so on along with a subfolder labeled Book with all the chapters in it, a subfolder labeled Surplus with all the stuff I remove in it, and a subfolder labeled Marketing with all the query information. Usually inside the Marketing folder I have another set of folders labeled Query with all the iterations of my query letters and copies of each query letter I send, and a folder labeled Synopsis with all the iterations of the different synopses- one page, three page, etc.

NicoleMD · May 22, 2008

After three years, a complete rewrite, and numerous pages of world building and plotting, I've just now (like an hour ago) figured out what story I really want to tell. So June 1st I start another rewrite!

I do think I'd go crazy after working on the same novel for ten years though. I've completed a novel, a couple novel drafts, and a screenplay between the first draft and this new one, so I think (I hope) I've done a bit of learning and have the mental equipment to write a really solid third draft.

Nicole

Madison · May 22, 2008

Someone brilliant once said something along the lines of, "A novel is never finished, only abandoned."

dianeP · May 22, 2008

s_whiticar said:
Hello Everyone,

Also, do any of you keep track of major scenes that you "cut out" when you are editing your work? I keep a seperate document titled "Deleted Scenes" (usually open with my manuscript document) for that purpose. Even if a scene will not be used, I feel it doesn't hurt to keep it around, separated from the manuscript (using the old cut and paste), in case there may be information I might need, or even a way to condense it for use in the finished work. It may be trash, or it may have a little value somewhere.

Anyway, how much revision, and how many drafts do most of you go through before you feel your work is complete, or you are at least happy with it?

Scott.

I'm on my fifth revision as well and like you I feel the work is getting better every time. I add a bit here and cut useless things there.
Big scenes I really like but feel they no long fit the story, I will cut and put aside. Who knows? Maybe I can use it somewhere else later.

WannabeWriter · May 23, 2008

I'm in my second draft, but it has a lot of major changes. They are for the better, though.

Editing/Rewriting My Novel - "Major Overhauls"

s_whiticar

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard

Cassidy

writing for kids and teens

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Shara

Fix it in the Rewrite

James81

Great Scott Member

James81

Great Scott Member

tehuti88

Mackinac Island Fanatic

Kalyke

Jake Barnes

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

nevada

Kalyke

nevada

ghuffman

underthecity

Finestkind

windyrdg

New kid, be gentle!

NicoleMD

Onomatopotamus

Madison

summertime...

dianeP

WannabeWriter