Tolkien Thread (Open to All)

Nateskate · May 20, 2008

J.R.R Tolkien's novels influenced so many authors that I think he deserves his own thread. I'll make my points, but feel free to add or bring up new points or ask questions. If you do so, put this in the title box to make it easier to find. Any of you Tolkien lovers feel free to answer or add new subject matter. If you identify the heading it will make it easier for people to follow each sub-thread.

I'm reading The Treason of Isengard, which is one of several books compilled by Christopher Tolkien (his son) about how the Lord of the Rings was written in stages.

It's a great lesson on writing, because it shows how long it took for J.R.R Tolkien to finish his book, and how many versions there were, some rather lame ones as well. Aragorn was initially Trotter, whose character was changed back and forth from a Hobbit, an Elf, and then to a Man.

Tolkien discourages me, because when he writes prose or poetry, and gets it right, I realize it's simply beyond my skill level. But what encourages me, is that he didn't get everything right all at once.

Another thing I learned in Treason of Isengard, was that though the Inklings was at first a group, Tolkien admits that it wound up just him and C.S.Lewis. I imagine the others just got worn out. And so, these two minds encouraged each other, and out of this came some of the greatest fantasy written.

dirtsider · May 20, 2008

I'd like to suggest the book The Battle for Middle-Earth. It takes a look at the Christian aspect of the book, which is fairly subtle. Apparently Tolkien himself was pretty surprised at how much of his faith wound up in the book. Especially since he doesn't openly talk about religion in LOTR. Yes, there are a couple of supplications to Elbereth but other than that, not much else is in there openly.

One of the things I really liked about the books is that Aragorn doesn't display the heritage guilt that he does in the movies. Ok, in the movies, they wanted to "flesh out" the characters in what is a very plot-driven book. But I always thought Aragorn in the books admitted that Men were flawed (ala Isildur's decision to keep the Ring rather than destroy it) and just set about doing what he had to do to regain his throne. Not only was he Isildur's Heir, was trained by the very same people who survived the first Alliance and Men, his ability to regain his throne was his dowry to Elrond for the hand of Arwen. Of course, that's my take on things.

Zodiea · May 20, 2008

Infomative Prologue

I actually have a question on the basic Lord of the Rings series.

I'm interested in working in the fantasy genre, and am going about reading the classics. I borrowed the first from the library and cracked open the spine and began on the prologue. My eyes about bled. After taking a break I watched the first movie hoping I could understand it better. Recently I had a powerful coupon and bought the box set for another go. The first mistake was to try and read the prologue again. I even went as far as looking up a map of Middle Earth online so I could follow along. Still, I felt like my eyes were going to bleed. I'm taking another short break, but next time I will start on chapter one.

Here's my question: Does the info dump mean anything in the story to follow? Does anyone think that a modern book could get away with a prologue like that?

zegota · May 20, 2008

No, I don't think modern books can get away with info dump prologues, at least not first novels -- if it is an author's fifth book in a series, or something, they can usually put something like that in there, but I don't particularly think it works.

To be honest, I don't think Tolkien really gets away with it; his books in general are far too info-dumpy for me. However, the brilliant story and world he creates kind of makes up for it.

Deleted member 42 · May 20, 2008

You can skip the prologue, and read it later if you want.

Mr Sci Fi · May 20, 2008

Wow, at first I thought this said, "The Tokin' Thread."

Old Hack · May 20, 2008

Start with The Hobbit, and work on from there. That was the easiest, I found.

(Years ago I did a little bit of work on a Tolkien encyclopedia, and had to read them all while classifying everything in them in the space of about four months. That was intense, and I've not read any Tolkien since!)

Nateskate · May 20, 2008

dirtsider said:
I'd like to suggest the book The Battle for Middle-Earth. It takes a look at the Christian aspect of the book, which is fairly subtle. Apparently Tolkien himself was pretty surprised at how much of his faith wound up in the book. Especially since he doesn't openly talk about religion in LOTR. Yes, there are a couple of supplications to Elbereth but other than that, not much else is in there openly.

One of the things I really liked about the books is that Aragorn doesn't display the heritage guilt that he does in the movies. Ok, in the movies, they wanted to "flesh out" the characters in what is a very plot-driven book. But I always thought Aragorn in the books admitted that Men were flawed (ala Isildur's decision to keep the Ring rather than destroy it) and just set about doing what he had to do to regain his throne. Not only was he Isildur's Heir, was trained by the very same people who survived the first Alliance and Men, his ability to regain his throne was his dowry to Elrond for the hand of Arwen. Of course, that's my take on things.

I liked the fragile Aragorn in the movies. I think that if they did a literal book version of Aragorn, he'd have come off looking cartoonish, a modern day He-Man as one of my friends pointed out once.

There have been a number of conversations about the spiritual metaphors in LOTR- Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo all face a type of death and resurrection before accomplishing their goals: Gandalf at the bridge fighting the Balrog, Aragorn going through the paths of the dead, and Frodo with Shelob.

CDarklock · May 20, 2008

dirtsider said:
the Christian aspect of the book, which is fairly subtle

...in a very beat-you-over-the-head kind of way.

I didn't find it even remotely subtle. I think if your religion suffuses a given work, you're less likely to notice it, simply because it's not notable to you. After all, this is your religion; a christian theme is natural to you, because it is part of your world, and makes the world feel "right".

But to me, being Jewish, when christian themes and ideas enter a work - well, you may as well put up a big flashing neon sign. They just leap out at me, because since this isn't my worldview, they make the world feel "wrong" in much the same way they feel "right" to someone who does share that worldview.

I am of the personal opinion that this surprises christians because chances are any randomly-selected author is a christian, so the christian themes are just part of what makes a book "good", i.e. it feels "right". To the non-christian, these same themes feel awkward and uncomfortable, and if they're particularly strong you start wondering whether you should be reading this book at all.

SPMiller · May 20, 2008

I mostly agree with CDarklock.

You'll note that in Middle-earth, there isn't even a mention of alternative religions. There is good, and there is evil, and you pick your side. Good and evil have actual manifestations in the real world, forcing this choice. The divine is knowable. Even worse, the good and evil sides are starkly at one end of the moral continuum or the other--no middle ground. Thus, Tolkien's black-and-white morality literally permeates the work.

However, some fantasy works written before Tolkien/Lewis were surprisingly "amoral" in comparison--even if some of the authors themselves were Christian. And they were often based on the same mythological structures.

One could argue that the success of LotR derives specifically from its unflinching dedication to this black-and-whiteness.

Ken · May 20, 2008

never saw much of Pa when I was a young'un,
but he did read the trilogy to me, aloud.
So Tolkien will always be memorable to me

Matera the Mad · May 20, 2008

I was overwhelmed by The Lord of the Rings. It knocked all my paltry young literary aspirations off the road. This is it, I thought, it's all been done, there's nothing left for me. Eh. Forty+ years later, I've recovered. Mostly.

runner4life · May 20, 2008

I enjoyed reading the LOTR Trilogy. It's kinda of hard to get started since the way it's written but after a chapter or two it was a really good read.

Zodiea, don't have to read the prologue it's meant to be just background info about hobbits and such. I skipped over it the first time I read the books.

Mumut · May 20, 2008

runner4life said:
Zodiea, don't have to read the prologue it's meant to be just background info about hobbits and such. I skipped over it the first time I read the books.

I'm lucky, too. When I read Tolkien, a very long time ago, I never read any prologues or preludes or acknowledgements - I didn't think they were supposed to be part of the story. I know people who still think this.

Inkdaub · May 21, 2008

What prologues are you all talking about? I assume you mean the sections at the beginning wherein the previous happenings of the story are related in a Cliffs Notes manner? Why would you think that is part of the actual story? Maybe my books don't have the prologues in question...the ones they do have I just skip.

Deleted member 42 · May 21, 2008

CDarklock said:
.
But to me, being Jewish, when christian themes and ideas enter a work - well, you may as well put up a big flashing neon sign. They just leap out at me, because since this isn't my worldview, they make the world feel "wrong" in much the same way they feel "right" to someone who does share that worldview. .

Gee, that means most of the Western canon is going to be inaccessible to you.

And no, I don't think that LOTR is "overtly" Christian per se.

Zodiea · May 21, 2008

Inkdaub said:
What prologues are you all talking about? I assume you mean the sections at the beginning wherein the previous happenings of the story are related in a Cliffs Notes manner? Why would you think that is part of the actual story? Maybe my books don't have the prologues in question...the ones they do have I just skip.

I never said I thought it was a part of the story, I just wondered if any of the information was actually important while reading the meat of it. When I see a prologue, I assume it's supposed be presenting the needed back story and such to the story at hand. In which case, I don't think I'll need a history of hobbits to enjoy the adventure.

Thanks for all the replies; I'll start on the books soon!

Richard White · May 21, 2008

Perhaps I am a bit different in my reading habits, but when I snagged a copy of the Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy, I remember reading all four books back to back in a 30 hour marathon over Christmas break at college.

I won't say it was a life-changing experience, except for the fact that after spending time with Tolkien, who led me to Kurtz, Norton, Cook, Stasheff, Abbey, Adams, White and others . . . which led me to The Three Musketeers, The Scarlet Pimpernel, Ivanhoe, etc. . . . which led me to change my major in college to become a history major . . .

Well, you get the idea.

Mr Flibble · May 21, 2008

And no, I don't think that LOTR is "overtly" Christian per se.

I remember being very surprised to find out that it was supposed to have all these christian ethics in it. I always thought it was pagan, if anything. I was disappointed to find out it wasn't pagan, but I didn't/ don't see any overt christianity.

dawinsor · May 21, 2008

Nateskate said:
I liked the fragile Aragorn in the movies. I think that if they did a literal book version of Aragorn, he'd have come off looking cartoonish, a modern day He-Man as one of my friends pointed out once.

I think that's because, as Tokien said, he was writing heroic romance (romance in the sense of Arthur rather than Harlequin) rather than novels. I admire what Tolkien accomplished, but when I read him, I miss the intimate look at human nature novels provide.

dirtsider · May 21, 2008

CDarklock said:
...in a very beat-you-over-the-head kind of way.

I didn't find it even remotely subtle. I think if your religion suffuses a given work, you're less likely to notice it, simply because it's not notable to you. After all, this is your religion; a christian theme is natural to you, because it is part of your world, and makes the world feel "right".

But to me, being Jewish, when christian themes and ideas enter a work - well, you may as well put up a big flashing neon sign. They just leap out at me, because since this isn't my worldview, they make the world feel "wrong" in much the same way they feel "right" to someone who does share that worldview.

On one hand, I agree with what you say. I've seen a couple of novels written by pagan authors that have the "beat-you-over-the-head" religious feel to them that is very distracting. I also found Beowulf to be more overtly Christian then LOTR, mainly because the people writing the poem down were monks.

On the other, most of my friends aren't Christian (including my best friend is also Jewish) don't seem to have the problem you state. Yes, I did bring this topic up with my initial post but that's because I thought the book I mentioned was an interesting take on LOTR.

And for the record, I may have been raised Catholic but I'm more eclectic in my beliefs these days. I'm more likely to put down a book if it's blatently Christian than pick it up.

Willowmound · May 21, 2008

IdiotsRUs said:
I remember being very surprised to find out that it was supposed to have all these christian ethics in it. I always thought it was pagan, if anything. I was disappointed to find out it wasn't pagan, but I didn't/ don't see any overt christianity.

The good/evil dichotomy is certainly Abrahamic. It's so ingrained in our culture, a lot of people don't see it as a construct. But it is, and it's not one you find in all religions.

Phaeal · May 21, 2008

Good Lord, I've read The Hobbit and LotR about twenty times so far and have yet to read any of the preliminary material or the appendices. Skip 'em and get to Bilbo's birthday party, for the love of Elbereth!

Starting with The Hobbit is a good idea, btw. It's the quick and easy introduction to Middle Earth, as well as a ripping tale in its own right.

Mr Flibble · May 21, 2008

Willowmound said:
The good/evil dichotomy is certainly Abrahamic. It's so ingrained in our culture, a lot of people don't see it as a construct. But it is, and it's not one you find in all religions.

The good /evil dichotomy is not neccessarily Abrahamic. I can't think of a major religion that doesn't have a distinction between the two -- it isn't a christian preserve you know. The book deals with a lot of pagan values too ( although hardly surprising since Tolkein was influenced by the Norse

)

Willowmound · May 21, 2008

It didn't say it was only Abrahamic. I said it was a non-universal construct.

...Which may or may not be beside the point about Christian influences in LOTR. I don't know.

Tolkien Thread (Open to All)

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