Historically accurate "racial slurs" in young adult novel

bonnyread · Apr 25, 2008

I've got a book building in my brain. An alternate history sort of thing set sometime around 1912. If I write the book as it is in my head, it may very well turn out to be best suited to a young adult audience. When I was a preteen, I read Steven King and Issac Asimov, so I don't have much of a feel for this field.

One of my characters is Chinese, and I'm not sure how appropriate it would be to have the other characters refer to him in the historically correct terms. I mean, "Chinaman" and "Oriental" are fine on Deadwood, but I'm not sure for a younger audience. I've never been the politically correct sort myself, but I'm uncertain here. These terms feel right to me in the context I would be using them...

Advice?

ETA: I'm currently reading the thread on the word "damn" a little further down the page, but this strikes me as a different situation.

Again ETA: I just realized there is a separate forum for Young Adult. Mods, feel free to move this post.

scottVee · Apr 26, 2008

Hi. I read a few old Jack London stories again recently. They're from about your era, and boy do they have racial slurs. I'd hate to say it, but even these Jack London stories wouldn't fly in today's paranoid "never never never say anything even slightly hurtful" market. Not for kids, and not for adults. Don't give publishers or readers any extra reasons to hate your work. I don't think the historical accuracy argument has much weight at the moment. If anything, the main thrust of mass media is to rewrite history so nothing bad ever happened. I'm not keen on joining this fool's revolution, but fighting it with your very first novel is just an extra obstacle.

Appalachian Writer · Apr 26, 2008

Mark Twain's The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is arguably the most anti-bigotry book I've ever read, one of the main charactes being a black man whose presented as the only adult male character in the book with any level of moral authority. Even Judge Thatcher, the ultimate moral authority in the book's predecessor, Tom Sawyers becomes a money-hungry grabber who effectively steals a fortune from 12-yr-old Huck, paying him only $1.00 in exchange and then skipping town to leave Huck's future in the hands of someone who does not know the boy's background. Orginially, the book was banned in Boston because of it's assertion that a black man could be a better example for a child than a white man. In this age, when being labelled intolerant is equated with being called a son-of-a-bitch, the book continues to be banned in many libraries because Twain chose to use the dialect and terminologies of the day in which the book was written, frequently employing the "n" word. Since the goal of any writer is to be published and to be published means a certain level of conformity to the social norms of the day, I'd carefully consider whether or not to use language that might be construed as racist, even if that language conforms to the era in which the piece is set. If you do decide to use such language, it will be an exercise in fence-walking, provided those terms only come from the bad guys, the characters for whom no one could really empathize.

HeronW · Apr 26, 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chink
this might be helpful.
I've also come across the term: rice-eater from the 1800's since rice was not a staple of the usual American.

Elliot Cowan · Apr 26, 2008

If it's set in the US you should go dig out Bill Bryson's book Made In America.
It's about how American developed as a language and racial slurs are a major part of one chapter.
I've got it around here somewhere and if I can locate it I'll let you know what he says.

Little Earthquake · Apr 26, 2008

HeronW said:
I've also come across the term: rice-eater from the 1800's since rice was not a staple of the usual American.

My, how times have changed!

Back to the topic at hand: I believe that you should represent your characters as accurately as possible. If they are the sort of people who would use racial slurs, then write in the racial slurs. Racism is as much a part of our world today as it was 100 years ago, and I don't believe you should tidy it up just because some readers might be offended.

I can't think of any recent examples of racist language in a book, but I can think of one on a TV show. The Sopranos had some of the most disgustingly prejudiced characters I'd seen in a LOOOOOONG while. But that's who those characters WERE. Tony Soprano is a jerk, and he's a very VOCAL jerk. Of course, an HBO series is very different from a young adult novel, but I think the basic principle still applies: be true to your characters and your story.

Lyra Jean · Apr 26, 2008

I don't see how Chinaman and Oriental are racial slurs. Now if you were using chink then I would say no way. But Chinaman and Oriental just sounds like calling a black person colored or African-American. Of course, anything can sound like a slur given the right tone of voice.

Just my opinion and it could be wrong.

Pup · Apr 26, 2008

scottVee said:
Hi. I read a few old Jack London stories again recently. They're from about your era, and boy do they have racial slurs. I'd hate to say it, but even these Jack London stories wouldn't fly in today's paranoid "never never never say anything even slightly hurtful" market. Not for kids, and not for adults. Don't give publishers or readers any extra reasons to hate your work. I don't think the historical accuracy argument has much weight at the moment. If anything, the main thrust of mass media is to rewrite history so nothing bad ever happened. I'm not keen on joining this fool's revolution, but fighting it with your very first novel is just an extra obstacle.

For what it's worth, the novel I just sent to my agent is a young adult one set in the late 1860s U.S., and includes "nigger-lover," "yellow negro," "half-wit nigger" and a discussion of how to take advantage of white people's fears about all the newly-free negroes--spoken by empathetic main characters who have simply been raised in that kind of world.

I told her I could tone down the sex and racism as need be, and she's getting back to me on revisions before submitting, but the impression I got from her is that the sex is what'll need glossed over, not the racism.

And I'm an unknown also--certainly not established enough to get away with things a beginner couldn't.

I think the main difference between fiction written in the past, and modern historical fiction (or at least what I aim for), is that the non-white characters must be presented as fully-developed people too, even while enduring stereotypes and racism. In other words, the characters are racist, but the writer isn't.

In my opinion, portraying non-white characters living in equality with white ones, in historical periods when they didn't, wipes away a big chunk of the heritage of other ethnic groups, and unfairly rewrites history to make white people look good. I picture a kid reading a historical novel with idealized race relations and saying, "Gee, Grandpa, what was Martin Luther King complaining about? White people treated black people good back then."

On the specific topic at hand, I also was thinking that "Chinaman" or "Oriental" would be the milder labels, since "Chink" or "Chinky" would be common historically too.

bonnyread · Apr 26, 2008

Appalachian Writer said:
Mark Twain's The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is arguably the most anti-bigotry book I've ever read, one of the main charactes being a black man whose presented as the only adult male character in the book with any level of moral authority ... Since the goal of any writer is to be published and to be published means a certain level of conformity to the social norms of the day, I'd carefully consider whether or not to use language that might be construed as racist, even if that language conforms to the era in which the piece is set. If you do decide to use such language, it will be an exercise in fence-walking, provided those terms only come from the bad guys, the characters for whom no one could really empathize.

Thanks for the reply. Huck Finn was actually one of the things I was thinking about when I posted my question. We were required to have a permission slip to read it in high school.
I think your statement about "fence walking" is valid. The character I am thinking of would be a mentor for my mc, and she has the utmost respect for him, but the rest of the world isn't quite as broad minded.

bonnyread · Apr 26, 2008

Elliot Cowan said:
If it's set in the US you should go dig out Bill Bryson's book Made In America.
It's about how American developed as a language and racial slurs are a major part of one chapter.
I've got it around here somewhere and if I can locate it I'll let you know what he says.

I'll defiantly look for that. Thanks!

bonnyread · Apr 26, 2008

HeronW said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chink
this might be helpful.

That is indeed helpful. I love wiki-research!

bonnyread · Apr 26, 2008

Little Earthquake said:
My, how times have changed!

Back to the topic at hand: I believe that you should represent your characters as accurately as possible. If they are the sort of people who would use racial slurs, then write in the racial slurs. Racism is as much a part of our world today as it was 100 years ago, and I don't believe you should tidy it up just because some readers might be offended.

I do very much agree with both this. I'm a white woman married to a black man in the south, so I've seen racism up close. I think that's why the thought of writing it for young ones to read makes me a little squicky. But, dammit, it's true to the characters.

DWSTXS · Apr 26, 2008

actually, in Deadwood, the term used most often referring to the Chinese workers was 'celestials'

bonnyread · Apr 26, 2008

DWSTXS said:
actually, in Deadwood, the term used most often referring to the Chinese workers was 'celestials'

I can't believe I forgot that one! I should go look that term up...

DWSTXS · Apr 27, 2008

bonnyread said:
I can't believe I forgot that one! I should go look that term up...

I believe that was some very arcane usage.

Zoombie · Apr 28, 2008

I once read a sci-fi YA book set in an alternate universe where the Articals of Confederation were never ratified and the United States broke up before they were even formed and-

Hey! Wait, don't walk away, this has a point!

-Anywho! In the book there is a teen from our timeline who is pretending to be a native, but he's raised even more politically correct than we are now a-days. And with him being the narrator, racial slurs were simply referred to obliquely ("he put the megaphone to his lips and repeated that...hatefull word again").

It's a bit clunky, but can be adopted. I've used that kind of thing in MY young adult...mostly cause the only cuss words in my universe don't sound as good as a good old "son of a bitch" or "damn", but I can't use SOB and Damn...because of complicated reasons I won't go into now...reasons that involve a giant space ship.

So I just write, "He cursed" or "she swore'

Not sure if that can be used on this kinda writing, cause you can't type, "He used a racial slur" And not feel like a tosser.

Moonshade · May 2, 2008

"In my opinion, portraying non-white characters living in equality with white ones, in historical periods when they didn't, wipes away a big chunk of the heritage of other ethnic groups, and unfairly rewrites history to make white people look good."

Pup, I couldn't agree more. If it's one thing that drives me crazy, it's revisionist history. I can't stand PC stories, especially when dealing with history. Let the truth be told. Good Writers can handle it and good readers demand it.

bevmacrina · May 2, 2008

As another comment - I agree that you should use what was being used at the time of the story you're writing. Show the minority as wholly rounded people, complete and three dimensional, so that the stereotypes don't stick.

Just as note - "John" was a common name for any Chinese man in western Canada in the 1850's to 1900's. It was, by virtue of the fact that it was applied to Chinese only, derogatory.

What you have to remember is that the racist attitudes were ingrained in the culture, so a "liberal" of the time would be someone who might stand and converse with a minority - or might treat them a little better than the rest of the society - but they wouldn't treat them as equals - i.e a 'liberal' of a racist time might not call blacks 'niggers'. Think of To Kill a Mockingbird - I don't think Harper Lee has Atticus Finch use that word in the entire book, and if memory serves, he punishes or lectures his children when they use it. He was liberal, but you didn't see him asking his maid to sit down to lunch with them. His children went to the black church when he was out of town, but they didn't have a sleepover with her grandchildren - so he's liberal but not so much as we are.

If you accurately portray the world around them, then the protaganist can be 'liberal' in terms of their time, without sacrificing the ingrained attitudes they would have, but also without alienating the reader.

Zoombie · May 2, 2008

Now the slur Johnny Chinese makes sense.

Historically accurate "racial slurs" in young adult novel

bonnyread

scottVee

Appalachian Writer

Somewhere in the hills....

HeronW

Down Under Fan

Elliot Cowan

Publish Me

Little Earthquake

I'm melting!

Lyra Jean

Two years old now.

Pup

.

bonnyread

bonnyread

bonnyread

bonnyread

DWSTXS

Mr Mojo Risin...

bonnyread

DWSTXS

Mr Mojo Risin...

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse

Moonshade

bevmacrina

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse