Speculative Poets and Poetry

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509
Talking with Rose and Di. We need a thread for those of us who write speculative poetry. I think there are some others here who write speculative poetry as well, so chime in and let's make a thing of it.

Discuss the form? Share some of our speculative poems? Share market info? Anything, I guess, as long as it concerns speculative poetry.

Of course, now we have to define speculative poetry...
 

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
2,988
Reaction score
534
Location
at home
Website
riseagain.net
Sharing for both appreciation and critique would be really helpful for me. And mabe recomendations as well. (Have you read any of Jo Walton's or Suzette Hayden Elgin's stuff? Both are SF/fantasy writers who frequently post poems to their LiveJournals. Good stuff.)
 

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509
Sharing for both appreciation and critique would be really helpful for me. And mabe recomendations as well. (Have you read any of Jo Walton's or Suzette Hayden Elgin's stuff? Both are SF/fantasy writers who frequently post poems to their LiveJournals. Good stuff.)
That's kinda where I'm at, Di. Anyway, I'm about at the end of my online time for the day, but I am going to check back here and add to every day. I really would like to turn this into a little spot for the spec poets.

In that vein, here's an excerpt from an interview that I did with Elissa Malcohn on my blog. I'll put a link in at the bottom for anyone who wants to read the whole interview.

Elissa was editor of Star*Line back in the mid 80's.

Re: What is Speculative Poetry?

VG- How do you define the term "speculative poetry"? What makes a poem "speculative"? Do you make a distinction between speculative poetry and science fiction poetry?
EM- I consider science fiction poetry to be a subset of speculative poetry -- and would say the same for fantasy, horror, and science poetry. An article of mine, forthcoming in the Winter 2007 issue of Poets' Forum Magazine, introduces the concept of speculative poetry to the general readership. PFM is interactive, introducing poetic forms and concepts and providing its readers with "challenges".
Expanding on the SFPA's definition of speculative poetry as driven by speculation, I wrote, "Such poetry often uses metaphors to engage the imagination and go beyond everyday reality. Even writing about the world around us, but using language other than what one might expect, can create a speculative poem."
For that reason I would place works such as Edgar Allen Poe’s “The Raven” and Diane Ackerman’s volume of astronomical poems, The Planets: A Cosmic Pastoral (William Morrow & Co., 1977) in the speculative poetry category.

An Interview with Elissa Malcohn
 
Last edited:

Steppe

...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
7,885
Reaction score
692
Location
Port Orchard, Washington
Seems to me that " even writing about the world around us, but using language other than what one might expect, can create a speculative poem", is a rather brood definition, allowing much to be considered as speculative poetry.

In other words, I think a finer definition should be wanted.
 

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
647
Location
in the hands of the night
Website
roselemberg.net
It's not about definition so much as it is about readership. Many poems are clearly "SF poems", others are more borderline - touching on mythical themes, for example, which could be appropriate for general markets as well; but the readers who come to read straight SF or fantasy poetry usually also enjoy mythic poetry, and slipstream poetry, and what not; a good mythic poem has a much easier chance of finding a home in a spec market than in other places. Plus, the readers actually read and care. It's a wonderful small niche to hang out. And people usually are gentle and non-pretentious.
 

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
647
Location
in the hands of the night
Website
roselemberg.net
Oh and btw maybe we can have a sticky in the Poetry Crit forum with all the spec or spec-friendly poems to be critted, because poems disappear rather quickly from the main page, and we should make an effort to help each other IMHO.
 

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509
Seems to me that " even writing about the world around us, but using language other than what one might expect, can create a speculative poem", is a rather brood definition, allowing much to be considered as speculative poetry.

In other words, I think a finer definition should be wanted.
If you read and or write speculative poetry you know what it is. For those who are not a part of that "crowd," some shape needs to be given to the beast. I think Ms. Malcohn does an excellent job of finding some shape in this particular void.
 

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509
It's not about definition so much as it is about readership. Many poems are clearly "SF poems", others are more borderline - touching on mythical themes, for example, which could be appropriate for general markets as well; but the readers who come to read straight SF or fantasy poetry usually also enjoy mythic poetry, and slipstream poetry, and what not; a good mythic poem has a much easier chance of finding a home in a spec market than in other places. Plus, the readers actually read and care. It's a wonderful small niche to hang out. And people usually are gentle and non-pretentious.
Which makes me think maybe we should just keep it that way....

:D
 

JRH

practical experience, FTW
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
757
Reaction score
83
Location
Tacoma, WA
Website
www.shadowpoetry.com
One of the things that has not been adequately explored here are the range of works that "Speculative Fiction" encompasses which apparently,including Science Fiction, SF, Fantasy, Horror, Myths, and anything touching on the Sciences that could actually be termed "Speculative".

More importantly, there seems to be a rather large demand out there for such including dozens of small markets, (many of which actually pay a little), and those markets, or a least a wide selection of them, are posted by The Science Fiction Poetry Association on the web and can be found at: http://www.sfpoetry.com/links.html

One of the links that is listed there is "Astropoetica" where my "Legacy of Aristarhus" was published last year, and that just shows the validity of such markets because it was a poem I was not able to place elsewhere although I tried it with "The New Yorker". "The Atlantic Monthly", "Poetry Magazine" and a half dozen "Literary" Journals

Beyond that, I, myself, have at least a half dozen Poems that, although "Historical"/"Mythical", could be labeled "Speculative" or "Fantasy" and at least 8 more that are "Apocalyptical" and thus could be considered in several of those areas and there have obviously been many Poems posted on these Forums that would also be appropriate for these venues, so I think it would behoove all of us to look into them.

None of these are large markets, but with this many available, they could provide a valid opening for many of us to find "Publication".

Check Them Out.

Jim Hoye (JRH)
 
Last edited:

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
647
Location
in the hands of the night
Website
roselemberg.net
I wouldn't say there are many, but they are excellent. Mythic Delirium, Goblin Fruit, Star*line, LSS, Dreams and Nightmares are all wonderful. Strange Horizons and Asimov's also publish poetry. These are paying markets. Their readership, as I said above, may be small - but it is dedicated and caring. These markets all pay between 5-20$ per poem, which is fine by me.

I would view the SP markets not as a gateway to publication in larger magazines, but as a world within itself. Nobody I care about would read the smaller literary journals, but indeed many of my beloved people read Goblin Fruit. And it is a great thing IMHO that a relatively new e-zine has developed such a cult following.

I don't think what can be more meaningful to me than to publish in these small journals that I love. Sure, the New Yorker would be nice and much more prestigious, but I doubt I will ever send anything of mine to New Yorker.
 

JRH

practical experience, FTW
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
757
Reaction score
83
Location
Tacoma, WA
Website
www.shadowpoetry.com
Rose,

My thought on it was that if you are looking to impress Publishers for "Book Publication", any Publication Credit counts, (although these admittedly will not count as much as the "Majors"). and in my mind, that, in itself, makes it worth it. (Particularly when you consider I've only mangaged 16 acceptances in 47 years of continuous and extensive effort in approaching any and all markets I could find).

Moreover, there are over 75 markets listed on the SFPA site, most of which I had NEVER HEARD OF, and that, for me, represents a HUGE windfall of opportunity.

Best of luck to all and Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)
 

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
647
Location
in the hands of the night
Website
roselemberg.net
Rose,

My thought on it was that if you are looking to impress Publishers for "Book Publication", any Publication Credit counts, (although these admittedly will not count as much as the "Majors"). and in my mind, that, in itself, makes it worth it. (Particularly when you consider I've only mangaged 16 acceptances in 47 years of continuous and extensive effort in approaching any and all markets I could find).

Moreover, there are over 75 markets listed on the SFPA site, most of which I had NEVER HEARD OF, and that, for me, represents a HUGE windfall of opportunity.

Best of luck to all and Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

Jim (if I may) - If you mean to use poetry credits to publish novels, than I am of a strong opinion that it would help very little, unless coupled with a record of short story publications. For selling speculative fiction, IMHO, speculative poetry credits are more meaningful than what you call a "Major" poetry credit. Indeed, many speculative poets are also successful novelists/short story writers, and vice versa. Check out Catherynne Valente and Jo Walton for instance.

16 poetry credits is quite impressive. I hope your other poems find good homes soon!

best of luck
Rose
 

JRH

practical experience, FTW
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
757
Reaction score
83
Location
Tacoma, WA
Website
www.shadowpoetry.com
Rose,

Thanks for the information and insight.

I have no interest in writing or publishing Novels as I've had difficulty in writing the 7 SF Short stories I have, (That haven't found publication, either). But I have always intended to publish my poetry, (now consiting of over 450 Poems including small ones such as Haiku/Senryu, Limericks, Epitaphs and Aphorisms), in volumes published by Traditional Publishers, and I have always figured I needed at least 50 credits in Major publications just to get in the door, (and I believe it would take twice that many in minor markets to do the job), and quite frankly, I'm running out of time to get it done as I'm now 66.

I had always attributed my lack of acceptance to he fact that I am a Traditional Poet, laboring in the face of a Modern/Intellectua/Metaphysical Cycle and I've always depended on the fact that that Cycle would one day change as it always has, but the older I get, the less likely it seems that it will happen in my lifetime, (so any thing that offers hope is a blessing).

For the record, I don't consider any form of "Vanity" publishing, POD or not, as anything but a waste of time, effort and money, and until such are accepted by libraries and Brick&Mortar Bookstores. I don't see them as offering anything but a meaningless last resort, but I don't intend to quit trying in any case.

Write On,

James R. Hoye
 
Last edited:

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
2,988
Reaction score
534
Location
at home
Website
riseagain.net
Well, no wonder it's a broad definition. One way to look at classification of writing is to turn it backwards from the usual perspective: all fiction falls into the realm of speculative fiction, because it all somwhow asks the question "What if?". The subset of writing set in universes that follow recognizable laws that fall within our understanding of existing natural laws is science fiction. And the subset of that that set in a world that is (or was) recognizably our own is what we usually consider literature and mainstream fiction.

So if the definition seems a little broad, maybe there's good reason.

Also, my experience is that SF people tend to be more widely read than the norm - any subculture that has spawned the likes of Mike Ford* is not one where you have to worry about people recognizing obscure words or bits of history or mythology.

(*If you haven't yet read Winter Solstice on Camelot Station, google it!)
 

Dichroic

that's di-CROW-ick
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
2,988
Reaction score
534
Location
at home
Website
riseagain.net
OK, I'll plunge in. Here's a sort-of skiffy piece I wrote a year or so ago. Comments welcome, both + and -, not to mention discussion of whether this is or is not specfic.

Bloodstone, Bronze Ribbons, and Bone Roses

I can see you hoarding, dragon-style,
Sitting and sifting mixed treasures through your claws.
Words gleaming red as garnets,
Stones glowing subtle as sonnets.

I can see you working, mason-style,
Fitting the rocks, and building them into a wall
Pinching the edge off a flint,
Smoothing the side of a stanza.

I see stained glass glowing, window-style
Framing the bright bits together in shape of a tale,
Shifting sunlight to sapphire and ruby,
Wreaking rhythms to fire-song and story.

I can hear you singing.
 

JBI

Banned
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
606
Reaction score
63
Location
Toronto Ontario
Speculative Poetry is hardly new; it seems to have been a dominant force in Victorian times (stemming from Pre-Raphaelite fascination with Blake and the Arthurian cycle) and even had a major resurgence in the 1950s and 1960s surrounding the critic Northrop Frye (the best known example being The Boatman by Jay Macpherson). What is being proposed here however, seems to me at least, to be stemming from, instead of an archetypal influence, a speculative fiction influence. To me, without the archetypal/magical realist attitude of speculation, speculative poetry seems only speculative for the sake of being speculative poetry.

Anything that speculates has to speculate for a reason, otherwise it is just a frill. If the Nibelungenlied were written today I hardly think it would have been as profound. The tradition requires at least some grounding in societal or archetypal truths.
 

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509
The poetry that I am referring to when I use the term "speculative poetry" is a more modern phenomenon. "Speculative poetry" is a rather poor label anyway. The poetry that I am talking about is perhaps more properly labelled "science fiction" poetry. The term "speculative" was, I think, meant to be more inclusive in regards to subject matter. It is a matter of how you choose to view it, in the end. Most of the non SF "speculative" poetry that I have read could as easily be labelled "new age," or "avante garde," or "modern surrealism," or whatever.

The speculative poetry that I write, and all that I have published, falls under the "science fiction" poetry label. It is only in the last ten years or so that I have begun to apply the "speculative poetry" style to poems concerning other topics.

Ultimately, for me, speculative poetry must do three things in order to be considered "speculative," in the sense that I have just described:

*The poem must inspire a sense of awe and/or wonder
*The poem must employ concise language and striking imagery, used either as narrative or metaphor, or both
*The poem must portray or posit some fantastical element...either of science, or myth, or the supernatural realm, and this fantastical element should be contrasted with reality as the reader understands, or perceives it

Di, I'll get back to your poem later tonight or early tomorrow morning. I'm still mulling where we could set up a spec poet's crit thing.

Anyway, let's not get too hung up on the word speculative.

:)
 

JBI

Banned
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
606
Reaction score
63
Location
Toronto Ontario
That is hardly a new phenomenon, if anything it is a neo-classical concept. Either way, as I was taught, the goal of Poetry is to stop time, by creating a universal. If speculation helps do that fine, but if it is just there for the sake of being there, it is pointless.
 

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509
That is hardly a new phenomenon, if anything it is a neo-classical concept. Either way, as I was taught, the goal of Poetry is to stop time, by creating a universal. If speculation helps do that fine, but if it is just there for the sake of being there, it is pointless.
What is hardly a new phenomenon? Please be more specific. Also, the world is full of people who could care less what you were taught where it regards poetry of any stripe, neo-classical or otherwise. Perhaps it is only pointless to you because you do not understand it. My previous post was quite clear.
 

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
647
Location
in the hands of the night
Website
roselemberg.net
JBI, I am with Skelly here. It is hard to define anything at all unless you are in hard sciences. Skelly's criteria are very appropriate.

In addition, at this time, Speculative Poetry is poetry written by people who self-identify as speculative poets. Check out SFPA.

There is nothing grand or ambitious about speculative poetry, nor does it have to justify its existence or relevance. It exists and is relevant, despite the fact that not a single spec poet has been picked up by Faber and Faber. Spec poetry is perhaps "wrongly defined" or "not new", or "meaningless" or "pointless" to you, but it is meaningful and fulfilling to ourselves and to our readership, and while that continues we will worry less about definition (which is not a meaningful worry IMHO) and more about refining our specific poems to the best of our ability.

I do not want to see this thread turn into a battle of definitions. This will be wrong for us ,who are only trying humbly to better our craft in this very small corner of Poetry which we lovingly call ours.

So please, JBI, decide what your want to accomplish in this thread. If this is to tell us that we should not be doing what we are doing because it is meaningless, then I am afraid I will have to politely ask you to do it in a different thread.

Thank you.
 

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
647
Location
in the hands of the night
Website
roselemberg.net
FYI: a link to AMCrenshaw's speculative piece in Poetry Crit. I think a possible format would be to post our poems there (since it is password-protected), and to link to them here.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2296749#post2296749

Dichoric: perhaps post yours in poetry crit? We should perhaps agree on format before critting, and have an index of poems to crit.

Happy this place is here :)
Rose
 

JBI

Banned
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
606
Reaction score
63
Location
Toronto Ontario
I know specifically that the Russian literary tradition, especially romantic tradition, was filled with many fairy-tale poems, some of which written by writers as esteemed as Pushkin and Lermontov. The English tradition seems to pull on biblical sources, and classical sources to create a speculative form of poetry, the best example is the great Romantic poet, William Blake.

The German tradition, I will stick to more modern traditions, also seems to have large speculative features, the best example which comes to mind is Goethe's Erlkonig. Yeats, the famous Irish poet drew and used speculative devices in a large amount of his poetry, his perhaps most famous poem, The Second Coming is a great example of this, as is his only long poem, The Wanderings of Oisin. The American tradition contains many of these things as well, written by poets like Poe (though I think him mediocre), Longfellow, T.S. Eliot, etc.

In fact, one could argue speculative, as you called it, poetry is an older tradition than "mainstream" (I hesitate to use that word, because of the silliness of it) poetry. The first poetry seems to be folkloric orally-passed down stories, which contain "speculative" elements.

Your three criteria seem to be applicable to a great many works in the world's literary tradition, to the point that the label of speculative seems to be ridiculous.
 

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
1,741
Reaction score
647
Location
in the hands of the night
Website
roselemberg.net
In fact, one could argue speculative, as you called it, poetry is an older tradition than "mainstream" (I hesitate to use that word, because of the silliness of it) poetry. The first poetry seems to be folkloric orally-passed down stories, which contain "speculative" elements.

Your three criteria seem to be applicable to a great many works in the world's literary tradition, to the point that the label of speculative seems to be ridiculous.

JBI, what you say is true, yet it is completely irrelevant. SFPA exists since 1978. If you want to be argumentative, go pick a battle with Marge Simon and other SFPA people.

Please, just let us do our thing here.
 

skelly

Kickin it old school, posers beware
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
2,990
Reaction score
1,509
I know specifically that the Russian literary tradition, especially romantic tradition, was filled with many fairy-tale poems, some of which written by writers as esteemed as Pushkin and Lermontov. The English tradition seems to pull on biblical sources, and classical sources to create a speculative form of poetry, the best example is the great Romantic poet, William Blake.

The German tradition, I will stick to more modern traditions, also seems to have large speculative features, the best example which comes to mind is Goethe's Erlkonig. Yeats, the famous Irish poet drew and used speculative devices in a large amount of his poetry, his perhaps most famous poem, The Second Coming is a great example of this, as is his only long poem, The Wanderings of Oisin. The American tradition contains many of these things as well, written by poets like Poe (though I think him mediocre), Longfellow, T.S. Eliot, etc.

In fact, one could argue speculative, as you called it, poetry is an older tradition than "mainstream" (I hesitate to use that word, because of the silliness of it) poetry. The first poetry seems to be folkloric orally-passed down stories, which contain "speculative" elements.

Your three criteria seem to be applicable to a great many works in the world's literary tradition, to the point that the label of speculative seems to be ridiculous.
I'm going to try very hard to be polite, like Rose. You are merely trying to flash your academic cred around...and that is okay. You can name drop all over the place. If you want to know what I'M talking about, then learn about people such as Duane Ackerson, Brian Aldiss, Mike Allen, Michael Bishop, Bruce Boston, Ray Bradbury, Adam Cornford, Keith Allen Daniels, Thomas M. Disch, Robert Frazier, Daphne Gottlieb, Neile Graham, Joe Haldeman, Andrew Joron, David C. Kopaska-Merkel, Ursula K. Le Guin, Tim Pratt, Marge Simon, W. Gregory Stewart, and Jane Yolen.

Honestly dude...you're like on a totally different topic. We are trying very hard to be respectful, but you are making that difficult.