How long did it take before you felt secure enough to critique your writing?

ZaraZara · Jul 9, 2015

A little context: I'm only 5k words into my novel and so insecure about what I've got so far I alternate between thinking "what the hell am I doing?!?" to sometimes almost considering my writing fairly good. This is the first non-academic thing I've written in years and, although I could write an essay and tell you what grade it'll receive down to the mark, I can't for the life of me critically analyse my own work in this frame of mind (yes, I know it's subjective but sometimes things can be objectively bad too, no?).

So - to all the novel writers out there - how long did it take before you were able to both appreciate your work and survey it with a critical eye?

I'm currently in a state of mind that's all: OMFG I'M ACTUALLY WRITING but Oh God the idea sucks and no one will ever want to read it fml. I'm thinking of sending the first two chapters to a stranger to read to see if they were able to finish/thinks it's boring/written badly etc.

Also, I promise I'm not normally so insecure. Pinkie swear. But writing takes something out of you that leaves you so gosh darn vulnerable...*hides*

KateSmash · Jul 9, 2015

I'll let you know when it happens. :Shrug:

But this is a feeling I think never really goes away entirely. There will always be days when you question everything and days where you're wondering why no one's given you a major award yet. You can learn to power through the self-doubt and bits of egomania with experience and recognized it as something separate from objective reality.

Since this is your first draft and first novel, I wouldn't worry too much about self-critique yet. Focus on getting the story down and learning what ways of working feel best and produce the best results.

And pop in the SYW forums to critique others. It'll help you start to see issues in your own work and know how to fix them. Plus it's always inspiring to see the people that stick with it transform their work.

Filigree · Jul 9, 2015

It never goes away for me. I've been writing off and on since 1987, and I've completed six big manuscripts and a bunch of short stories. Plus a million words of crap, notes, and crappy notes. It helps to disengage the internal editor and critic while I'm banging away at the first draft. Somewhere in the project, usually at the halfway mark, I'll start really hating it and doubting myself. Oddly enough, the more I hate it then, the happier I'll be with it later. IDK whether that's because I work harder to regain my joy and competency, or whether my internal critic just hates *everything* at that point.

Having strong beta readers helps. So does a positive attitude toward revisions, whether self-guided or at agent / editor request. Sometimes I just have to step away and work on something else that helps bolster my insecurity. Art is great for that.

Dennis E. Taylor · Jul 9, 2015

I would suggest joining something like critiquecircle.com . Their site model means that each critique of your posted work is done in isolation, i.e. a critter can't see other critters' comments until after they've completed their crit. For the author, it feels less like a public lambasting and more like a one-on-one. When your week is up, you can look at all the crits together and see if there are patterns of agreement. If so, you have something that needs fixing.

Different sites have different strengths. IMO, AW is hands-down the best place to go to get your query or synopsis shredded and reassembled. kboards is the best for discussions of self-pub marketing. and CC is a really good way to ease into the critiques thing without losing all your flesh.

RKarina · Jul 9, 2015

Wait, that feeling goes away?

Seriously, I think most writers struggle with being their own worst critic. And most of us struggle with the idea of handing our creative baby over to someone to rip apart.

It's all part of the creative process. It does get easier. You learn how you work best, how to critique yourself, and how to listen to others offer critique of their own.

I would strongly agree with KateSmash - don't think about that right now. Focus on your story. Focus on getting your ideas down. Spend time reading others, do some critiques as well. It will help refine your own writingin surprising ways.

Desiree · Jul 9, 2015

I think having a cool off period helps a lot. After finishing a manuscript, put it away and don't touch or look at it for at least a couple of weeks. You'll be able to see it with fresher eyes when you do pick it back up.

dda27101 · Jul 9, 2015

My advice, for whatever’s worth, keep writing. When you’re finished put it aside and throw yourself a party for getting the job done. Leave it alone for a few weeks…then start reading it. You’ll feel elated by some parts and decide that others are crap. Keep reading, find the holes in the story…that’s the important stuff. When you’re done, and feel good about the characters, pace, and the story as a whole, ask someone else to read it. Not to fix grammar or orthography, but to see if the story flows, if it’s clear, if they GET IT. Only now, when you’ve got a solid story, start editing. Don’t be afraid to dump sentences, paragraphs, even entire pages, if they don’t advance the story. When you’re done with that, and feel mighty proud of your work, post a few chapters here. People will help you. Suggestions will be offered, but keep in mind that’s your book, and you’re the final authority on what changes to make and what to leave alone. Use those suggestions to go through the entire mns with a keen eye. Don’t hold on to a phrase, paragraph, because they’re nicely written…remember, a word, a phrase, a paragraph that doesn’t advance your story is dead weight. Don’t be afraid to cut. When you’re done with all that, months after you’ve finished that first draft, you’re ready for a beta. Get someone who has published, someone who’s got experience with your genre. Not every beta is a good beta. You don’t need a “nice” one to say “I like it” but you need the one who’d help you get it ready for submission. At that point, and only then, start you query and synopsis. Lots of people here will gladly help. When that’s done, you’re ready to research the best agents for your work. GOOD LUCK.

chompers · Jul 9, 2015

Well, it looks like I'm in the minority. I've always felt secure enough to critique my own writing. I understand it's largely opinion anyways, and I know when I like something and when I don't. Added to that, I've done plenty of reading to know when a story is good or not, at least in my eyes. On top of that, I am able to look at my work objectively. So what I have to say when critiquing would have been the same whether the work was written by me or someone else. Now, how helpful it is, that's a different matter (although I would hope it is).

guttersquid · Jul 9, 2015

chompers said:
Well, it looks like I'm in the minority. I've always felt secure enough to critique my own writing. I understand it's largely opinion anyways, and I know when I like something and when I don't. Added to that, I've done plenty of reading to know when a story is good or not, at least in my eyes. On top of that, I am able to look at my work objectively. So what I have to say when critiquing would have been the same whether the work was written by me or someone else. Now, how helpful it is, that's a different matter (although I would hope it is).

I haven't always felt like Chompers about my own writing, but I feel that way now. I'm not sure how long it took, but there came a point at which I could read my own writing and forget I was reading my own writing. That's when I knew I could put my work out there for others to read without dreading criticism.

dawinsor · Jul 9, 2015

It sounds like you're less concerned about critiquing your work (which I do only after I've finished a draft and gotten some distance)than you are in assessing its quality or maybe marketability accurately. I don't know if I can do that yet. I'm a better writer now than I used to be, which sadly means I look at earlier work and see how underdeveloped some scenes are, for instance, when I used to think they were fine. I do find that as I read about writing and hear other people's insights, I have a better technical understanding of what I'm doing, which helps. Basically, I'd say keep writing.

ETA: I used to teach tech writing, and what we found was that in order to improve their writing, the students had to do three things: 1. notice that something was wrong, 2. correctly identify what it was, and 3. know how to fix it.

For me, noticing that something is wrong results in anxiety. It makes me crazy, so I try to ignore my discomfort. But that's counter-productive because it means I can't fix anything. So I've had to learn to treasure my anxiety, which sucks.

The issue then becomes timing the anxiety because if it's bad enough, it will keep me from writing. Also, I draft with a different part of my brain than I edit with, so I have to turn off editing, or try too, which I'm drafting. That's why I try to leave critiquing until I have a full draft. Then the anxiety is useful. Painful, but useful.

Roxxsmom · Jul 9, 2015

I feel like I can go back and look at my own writing and catch things. If anything, I probably judge my own too harshly. This doesn't mean I don't want other eyes seeing it and critiquing it too.

Myrealana · Jul 9, 2015

I'm different. I've always LOVED getting feedback on my work.

Maybe it's all the praise I received early from my writing teachers, but I can't wait for people to read my writing and tell me what works and what doesn't. When I joined a writing group, I submitted my first chapters as soon as they allowed me.

Plus, I get disappointed when I don't get helpful constructive feedback. I don't want to hear that it's fine. Tell me which parts you didn't get. If I lost you partway, let me know. I'll work on it. This is why I stopped sending things to my mom and my friends. They read it and have nothing but praise. BORING.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't like getting reamed any better than anyone else, but I don't want platitudes. I want legitimate critique to help make it better.

As far as reading my own, I had to learn how to critique others' work and see how others read mine before I got good at seeing the weaknesses in my own writing. Even with years of practice, I know I'm sometimes too involved in my own work to see what other will, so I still need an outside opinion.

Chase · Jul 9, 2015

My experience from critique groups in college, grad school, community gatherings, and online is lots of creative writers fall into two extreme camps.

A surprising number are convinced their pearls of prose are the brightest on the string and bristle at any inference that their writing isn't perfect. If you even point out typos, you're just being mean. It's funny how they tend to be disparaging of writing not exactly like their own.

Some on the other end feel unworthy of any praise. Most of the two extremes drop out of critique groups (or drive others out).

The majority of middle critters are great for trading ideas to think about. They listen, learn, debate, and offer insights. They're the alpha and beta readers, critique partners, and reviewers who help us the most.

BethS · Jul 9, 2015

how long did it take before you were able to both appreciate your work and survey it with a critical eye?

Not long after I got involved with a critique group. Giving and receiving feedback really sharpened my critical eye. Also, I tend to critique the work as I write. Not tearing it down, but looking a sentence and thinking "nah, doesn't work there" or "it needs restructuring" etc.

Sword&Shield · Jul 9, 2015

dda27101 said:
My advice, for whatever’s worth, keep writing. When you’re finished put it aside and throw yourself a party for getting the job done. Leave it alone for a few weeks…then start reading it. You’ll feel elated by some parts and decide that others are crap. Keep reading, find the holes in the story…that’s the important stuff. When you’re done, and feel good about the characters, pace, and the story as a whole, ask someone else to read it. Not to fix grammar or orthography, but to see if the story flows, if it’s clear, if they GET IT. Only now, when you’ve got a solid story, start editing. Don’t be afraid to dump sentences, paragraphs, even entire pages, if they don’t advance the story. When you’re done with that, and feel mighty proud of your work, post a few chapters here. People will help you. Suggestions will be offered, but keep in mind that’s your book, and you’re the final authority on what changes to make and what to leave alone. Use those suggestions to go through the entire mns with a keen eye. Don’t hold on to a phrase, paragraph, because they’re nicely written…remember, a word, a phrase, a paragraph that doesn’t advance your story is dead weight. Don’t be afraid to cut. When you’re done with all that, months after you’ve finished that first draft, you’re ready for a beta. Get someone who has published, someone who’s got experience with your genre. Not every beta is a good beta. You don’t need a “nice” one to say “I like it” but you need the one who’d help you get it ready for submission. At that point, and only then, start you query and synopsis. Lots of people here will gladly help. When that’s done, you’re ready to research the best agents for your work. GOOD LUCK.

What is the difference between "get someone to read it", go through all of your steps you mentioned, and then "get someone to beta read it"?

Wouldn't that person who reads your entire story be a beta reader?

JTShadow56 · Jul 9, 2015

It took me a long time before i could actually be confident with my writing. That feeling never goes away for me. Even though i'm starting to get more confident about what i write, that feeling of 'oh god this sucks' still lingers over me. I would have someone read a few chapters, give me feedback and use that to guide me through my own critique

dda27101 · Jul 9, 2015

Sword&Shield, to answer your questions. First reader is just that, a reader who you trust. Someone reporting only on the story: did he/she understand it, any confusing paragraphs/chapters, anything needs explaining? A good beta will do much, much more. At the stage the reader comes in a beta will stop reading after a few chapters. The mns is nor ready.

Sword&Shield · Jul 9, 2015

Gotcha, thank you for clarifying

dda27101 · Jul 9, 2015

You welcome, S&S. I finished a story, 110K, in 28 days…LOL When I read it, a few weeks later, I was laughing at the crap that was there. Took 8 months to have it ready.

jjdebenedictis · Jul 9, 2015

My problem is I freakin' LOVE the stuff I write.

Even when it's, um, not good. I just can't see that, at first. Putting the piece away for a month also helps me gain some perspective.

One point for the OP. Notice in this sentence: "OMFG I'M ACTUALLY WRITING but Oh God the idea sucks and no one will ever want to read it fml."

...that all your fears relate to what others will think of you. Meanwhile, the one thing that makes you happy is what you think of yourself for taking concrete steps toward your dream.

This is common and a surprisingly toxic pitfall many people fall into. They've done studies on this. When a person focuses on internal, personal reasons for attempting to reach a goal, they generally reach their full potential. When they focus on how others will perceive them, however, they tend to feel anxiety and not perform as well, even though they're still very invested in attaining the best outcome.

Just remember: You are not writing for those hypothetical judgey people you fear.

You're writing because this is something you want to do with your life, because you're proud of your abilities, because you want to be your best, to see how far you can really go. You're here for you; you're doing this for you.

Write on.

CathleenT · Jul 9, 2015

I'm going to second what a lot of others have said, but try to say it differently because sometimes that helps.

Writing simultaneously takes both enormous self-confidence and humility. You are totally going to have to think your words are worthwhile or you'll never get anywhere with them. (And that doesn't necessarily mean good on the first draft. I'm talking polished words.) But you also need the humility to really listen to every single point of criticism you're given and treat it like a gift. And you need to develop the judgement to know what to keep and what to discard.

It's super intimidating to do all at once. Your best bet is going to SYW and reading critiques. Do some, when you have something to say, even if it's just, "I enjoyed your story." Maybe especially if that's all it is. Sometimes the steady diet of, "Nope, this doesn't work either," can make the OP feel like they've broken all ten writing commandments. A cheery note would be welcome.

Then, if you really want to improve, pop into QLH and start reading crits there. It's like a whole course on what does and doesn't work for story. If you learn this stuff before you write the book (or in your case, as you do it) you'll be glad later. Truly.

Btw, welcome to AW!

LJD · Jul 9, 2015

ZaraZara said:
So - to all the novel writers out there - how long did it take before you were able to both appreciate your work and survey it with a critical eye?

I think I was able to look at it critically from the beginning, but I've certainly gotten better at that over time, as I learned more. I believe I'm pretty good at looking at my work objectively, though I need a break of a few weeks or months to have the distance I need to do so.

I didn't think my work was good enough to submit until I'd been writing for almost 3 years. It took maybe 4.5 years until I started liking my work most of the time...

Sword&Shield · Jul 9, 2015

dda27101 said:
You welcome, S&S. I finished a story, 110K, in 28 days…LOL When I read it, a few weeks later, I was laughing at the crap that was there. Took 8 months to have it ready.

Hey- I think that is pretty impressive! 4K/day average is pretty spiffy!

PandaMan · Jul 9, 2015

I've never had a problem with accepting critique about my writing. I guess it's not difficult for me to emotionally distance myself from it. My attitude is that I'm married to Mrs. Panda, not my writing.

OTOH, judging the quality of it is much more difficult. IMO, it ranges from real good to a 9.8 on the Crap-o-Meter scale (10 being pure crap).

Spleen · Jul 9, 2015

There is so much in the OP and the rest of the thread that I can identify with.
Including things that seem conflicting.

As KateSmash said it - self-doubt AND egomania

I think the whole thing is very confusing because
a) You have to believe in your writing at some level to actually write something down (ego)
b) You're producing something that is in a 'communicable' format and the power of it is in the relationship it forms between the writer and the reader over which you cannot have complete control (self-doubt)

I do think that this tension exists no matter how much you 'enjoy' the process (which is important too and something I cling onto with dear life in black hole moments).

I wrote my first MS in complete isolation. I had no idea AW existed and pretty much all my internet research early on seemed to say 'just write the goddamn thing'.
When I finished (recently) I've been feeling a lot like a troll emerging from my cave - I had no idea there was all of THIS. (Still very much feels like a troll scrabbling in the dirt, not sure exactly what they're doing)

On a practical note I would echo Angry Guy that sites like Critique Circle and Scribophile allow you to get quick hit crits back and forth and are worth a dabble to see if it is your cup of tea.

How long did it take before you felt secure enough to critique your writing?

ZaraZara

KateSmash

this was a triumph

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!

RKarina

Desiree

dda27101

chompers

guttersquid

I agree with Roxxsmom.

dawinsor

Dorothy A. Winsor

Roxxsmom

Raised by Wolves

Myrealana

I aim to misbehave

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

BethS

Sword&Shield

JTShadow56

The Sith Lord of Darkness

dda27101

Sword&Shield

dda27101

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

CathleenT

I write

LJD

Sword&Shield

PandaMan

Panda girls are the best!

Spleen