Contributing to the water cooler, or just milking it?

Chris P said:

I know if something grabs my interest or not, and I know if basic grammar rules are broken, (SNIP)
Besides, my tastes tend to be out of fashion in many respects (I love said bookisms--they're fun--and long, rambling compound sentences), and when it comes down to tastes we all have our own

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Chris, I think you raise a very important point, one I'd love to see explored a bit more.

Yes, there are certain truths to trends in commercial publishing, but those aren't the only readers buying books. A more introspective novel may be a harder sell, a novel that is raw and honest without a happy ending may (will) have a more difficult time finding the right agent, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessarily quality work. IMO, it just means these are less likely to sell big numbers. And even then, we've all heard stories of well known best sellers that earned big $ that were hard sells because they were too slow/slick/long/graphic/fill in your adjective of choice here.

I think it all circles back to the idea that the "rules" aren't rules, they're guidelines. And every single rule/guideline can be broken if the writer pulls it off.

bearilou said:

This site isn't just about putting good information out there, but about keeping the conversations alive and exchanging information. You have information, in the form of experience, that can be valid in helping someone new to writing get over some hump or fear or distress. Or for offering a different perspective that is just enough to shake someone loose from their deathgrip on a previous notion that is not helping them.

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You know, I've never thought of it like that. I guess you've just shaken me loose.

I'm a dedicated lurker who doesn't contribute that much because so often I'll read a thread and by the time I get to the bottom of it, a dozen people have already expressed my thoughts and I figure there's no point in adding what essentially boils down to "yeah, what they said." From now on, I think I'll add my voice anyway.

Practice giving crits. Just as with everything else, you'll get better as you go along. You only stand to gain from contributing to AW.

I was a lurker for the longest time, biting my nails, deleting my posts before I even posted them, but once I started really participating, I found it's really not as scary as I used to think it was. A few of the people I once feared and avoided I now joke around with and beta read each other's books. I've said my share of dumb shit, and been called out on it, and it didn't end my world. It's been an incredibly rewarding experience, one I wouldn't have had had I stayed lurking in the shadows.

We all have different visions for ourselves, why we're doing what we do, where we hope to be. Writing is the tie that binds us. Doesn't hang us. That's where newbies make their mistake. I know, I did it too, thinking what the hell can I offer, I don't know crap and I write worse than crap.

Doesn't matter. We're all writing and we're all hoping for something. If we can help each other attain whatever dreams we have, how can that ever be a bad thing?

I do believe I'm getting better by critiquing others' work, like Putputt says. And even when I miss the mark as I often do, even if I put my foot in my mouth or regret something as soon as I hit 'send,' I know I'm trying, anyway. And maybe somebody will respond to that, if nothing else, pluck something of value from that, find inspiration to keep going, or solace when times get tough.

Happens to me every day.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

There are other ways to contribute to the site.

1 Go into Story Research and help offer your experience on anything applicable. I've helped people with things like physical problems that cause imbalance, what is the aftermath of outrunning an attacker, information about opera rehearsals, what Indians eat on special occasions, etc., etc., etc.
2. Cheer people on in Goals and Accomplishments.
3. Learn something from the folks here who really know things, and then repeat it to the next newbie who asks the question when the in-the-know folks aren't around.
4. Pat people on the back in Conquering Challenges and Office Party. Writing is a lonely occupation. Those pats help release some of it.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

I have nothing to contribute to this thread about contributing...

I mean, seriously. That's not a joke. I really don't.



I am in a period of...low...brain activity, let's say. I've not actually contributed much lately because I feel tired and stupid all the time. Now would be about the time I reference a butthole or somesuch for filler.

It happens, the not contributing...

But, in general: don't be scared. Yeah, you will probably step in it a few times. Can't make an omelette without blahblahclicheballs. It's all good. Live and learn and walk around naked in your living room and stuff.

(apologies for the above; see: low brain function. Activity? What did I say? Activity. Shoulda said function. Would have made more sense maybe...)

I may have thought of a comment about starting up the vacuum pump and making sure the vat is set to 'chill'... No. That's as much detail as that analogy is going to get.

I will, however, add another person who gets to the end of the thread and doesn't post because everyone already said it, or starts to post and then deletes it because I don't want to disagree or say something that might come off as rude or unhelpful. I don't know what questions I should be asking to help me improve my own writing, so I just lurk quietly and read everyone else's questions and answers.

I may also have a certain level of fear about being seen getting things wrong. If i get them wrong in private, nobody tells me off.

Don't feel like you can't participate in discussion threads. People are often looking for more opinions, and the more opinions they get, the better. It's not a problem that you agree with someone else.

Cathy C said:

Also, keep in mind that SYW isn't the only room on the boards. Yes, critiques are valuable--and especially from regular readers, but have you visited your genre room recently and just wandered? How about the Research room? Sometimes your contribution can about where you live or what you do in your "realspace" life.

We're writers. We don't know everything in the whole wide world, and research is critical to what we do. While I don't recommend looking down in the depths of five-year-old threads to resurrect them, you'd might be surprised to learn that someone needs to know about the very things you live every day.

For myself, I learned more about writing by interacting with others here than I ever could have just reading threads. Sometimes it's a derail of the thread that is the best information. It's one of the reasons we allow derails. If something you read sparks a question, or a comment, in your mind, bring it up! We love to learn and teach both. I'll bet you have some of each in you.

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What she said.

I have a hard time believing I first found this site years ago now, but I've ne'er regretted it. I think I might have planned to make use of SYW at first, but once I started taking a walk 'round the various neighbourhoods I found a few I like enough to frequent. I never got round to subbing because, quite frankly, I enjoy the interaction here.

Fiender said:

So am I just being paranoid or should I try harder to put my opinions out there? Does anyone else find themselves in a similar position?

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I'm also in a similar position, and had the added paranoia of putting my opinions out there on people's SYW threads and then having someone with more experience than me directly contradict my thoughts, often within two or three posts of mine.

Every time that in particular happened it was hard to go back even to read, and harder still to want to share my thoughts again.

I keep telling myself that just because I may not look at things the same way as more established readers, it doesn't make my opinions less valid because they're colored by my personal experiences and tastes and what have you. I'd be lying if I said it *helped.* But I think keeping on going back at it is an important thing, even if it makes me feel kinda like crap sometimes. So I'd say yeah, it's probably worth continuing to put yourself out there, as you're able.

Lissibith said:

I'm also in a similar position, and had the added paranoia of putting my opinions out there on people's SYW threads and then having someone with more experience than me directly contradict my thoughts, often within two or three posts of mine.

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But it's great for the OP when that happens, isn't it? (As I contradict your post in THIS thread . . . getting so meta . . . aaaah! I mean this in a very nice way, though. ) I mean, if I'm the OP, and I get three people telling me the same thing, I know I HAVE to change it. But then if a couple people come along and say, "Actually, that part worked for me" I know opinion is mixed. And vice versa: it really helps to know there are readers out there who *were* confused by a particular passage, or for whom a description *doesn't* work, even if other people did like it. I feel like your crit is almost MORE valuable to the OP if it disagrees with multiple other critters. And your reaction can't be wrong, because it's your reaction, so . . . it's correct by definition! People contradicting you doesn't make you wrong; it just means they had other reactions.

(The exception, of course, being issues of grammar and syntax (edit: or if you take a "this is not how it's done" stance, as SomethingOrOther talked about below me); if you correct on those, you yourself could of course get corrected on your correction. But then you learn, too!)

I keep telling myself that just because I may not look at things the same way as more established readers, it doesn't make my opinions less valid because they're colored by my personal experiences and tastes and what have you. I'd be lying if I said it *helped.*

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But it's totally TRUE. Your opinions ARE just as valid.

If it doesn't help to tell yourself that, does it help to hear it from us? Not only that your opinions are valid, but that the contradictions will be helpful, and that we (other critters) don't look upon you as wrong or inexperienced if we read your crit and your reactions are different from ours?

Lissibith said:

...

I keep telling myself that just because I may not look at things the same way as more established readers, it doesn't make my opinions less valid because they're colored by my personal experiences and tastes and what have you. I'd be lying if I said it *helped.* But I think keeping on going back at it is an important thing, even if it makes me feel kinda like crap sometimes. So I'd say yeah, it's probably worth continuing to put yourself out there, as you're able.

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There's a difference between a set of contradictions like this one:

Critter 1 (beginner): "I didn't like this scene because of personal reasons A, B, & C."

Critter 2 (successful author): "I liked this scene because of personal reasons D, E, & F."

And this one:

Critter 3 (beginner): "Maybe you could cut the opening paragraph here. You shouldn't begin stories with backstory. Start in medias res."

Critter 4 (successful author): "I liked this opening paragraph."

The first set of contradictions is natural and expected. C1's views aren't any less valid than C2's. As slhuang suggests, that sort of disagreement is healthy. Besides, even the more established readers can disagree with one another!

But notice what's going on in the second set of contradictions. C3 and C4 disagree on taste — which, as with C1 and C2's disagreement, shouldn't lead the less experienced of the two to second-guess themselves. But their other (implied) disagreement isn't about taste. It's about a principle*: C3 thinks stories shouldn't begin with backstory, and C4 very likely thinks it's okay. When established readers contradict you that way (either directly or tacitly), you should take notice and consider if your current views need expanding. They might not need expanding, but considering the alternative position is the open-minded thing to do.

(Btw, these might be simplistic examples. I just woke up and my mind is feeling sluggish and I can't think of any better ones. But both types of contradictions happen a lot. )


*Statements like C3's are definitely not in the same class of "opinion" as reader response opinions. For one thing, they can have more or less merit than other positions.

SianaBlackwood said:

I may also have a certain level of fear about being seen getting things wrong. If i get them wrong in private, nobody tells me off.

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not getting "called out" on it increases the likelihood it is going to go to an agent un-fixed though...

slhuang said:

But it's great for the OP when that happens, isn't it? (As I contradict your post in THIS thread . . . getting so meta . . . aaaah! I mean this in a very nice way, though. ) I mean, if I'm the OP, and I get three people telling me the same thing, I know I HAVE to change it. But then if a couple people come along and say, "Actually, that part worked for me" I know opinion is mixed.

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Yup, now I feel bad about my wrong opinions and must again flee to lick my wounds.

Or I can just say, that's a good point. And honestly, I think there's something to be said for taking the time to post and crit just in and of itself, even if the opinion ends up useless to the writer. Just knowing someone was willing to take the time to read what you wrote and form a response can sometimes be helpful. But every opinion probably does help, as long as it's coming from a constructive place

slhuang said:

(The exception, of course, being issues of grammar and syntax (edit: or if you take a "this is not how it's done" stance, as SomethingOrOther talked about below me); if you correct on those, you yourself could of course get corrected on your correction. But then you learn, too!)

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Oh, definitely. I've learned to step back from grammar and punctuation stuff because of this. I edit for a newspaper, and my view of what's "correct" is skewed by what would be acceptable for a community newspapers I've worked for. Surprisingly, not all correct grammar and punctuation would be acceptable there and it's colored my views of right and potentially made people think their utterly correct stuff was wrong.

SomethingOrOther said:

The first set of contradictions is natural and expected. C1's views aren't any less valid than C2's. As slhuang suggests, that sort of disagreement is healthy. Besides, even the more established readers can disagree with one another!

But notice what's going on in the second set of contradictions. C3 and C4 disagree on taste — which, as with C1 and C2's disagreement, shouldn't lead the less experienced of the two to second-guess themselves. But their other (implied) disagreement isn't about taste. It's about a principle*: C3 thinks stories shouldn't begin with backstory, and C4 very likely thinks it's okay. When established readers contradict you that way (either directly or tacitly), you should take notice and consider if your current views need expanding. They might not need expanding, but considering the alternative position is the open-minded thing to do.

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That's a really good point as well, and I hadn't really thought about that particular nuance before. One more reason to critically examine everything (including what we write ourselves). It remains a fantastic learning tool.

This post will sound like it's been cobbled together from bits and pieces of all the other posts. Still, I'm posting it because I think it has a slightly different perspective that may help someone who's struggling with the OP's dilemma. That's half my answer right there.

Turning the meta down a notch, I think that any practice in writing or thinking is good practice. To feel like you have something to contribute, you have to read and understand all the other posts. You have to find some missing facet in all the carefully reasoned arguments. You have to put together a masterfully worded missive to present your idea. Even if you've only reworded another idea and agreed with it, you've shown the OP that that idea has support. All those tasks take some serious mental horsepower. You might even learn something if you're not careful.

Crits are wonderful practice. Something in the story doesn't make sense, but in what universe could it make sense? Why did the other writer do this and not that? Is that character acting out of character, or is she showing us a side we haven't seen before? Unless those things are outright errors, the other writer said them for a reason. If you can find that reason, you may help the other person become a better writer. Isn't that why we're here? It doesn't take a degree or a bibliography, just common sense and consideration.

<= Evolution of this poster: (Maybe some of y'all have had a similar developmental history)

Lurker, getting a feel for AW and what it has to offer.

Lurker, pulling information from specific threads and putting them to use in my writing.

Poster, gaining confidence in my writing, deciding to contribute to a thread or two.

Poster, said something that generated a lively discussion, with some disagreements with my position.

Lurker, suffering from a bit of thin skin.

Lurker, gaining more confidence in my writing and even having some small successes with it.

Poster, trying again, but this time putting less emotion into posts in favor of putting in some of my experiences. Still by far taking more than giving, but seeing it pay off, big time, in writing improvement.

Tread starter, starting a thread or two. Taking some lumps, but also finding some agreement for my views. Again. learning, learning, learning.

Poster, gaining more experience in writing and more confidence in my views on writing, which are expressed in my posts.

Poster, more of the same, but finding that people hold different views, but able to defend my position. Major realization - this writing business is so individual that there are many paths to our common destination and what is best for one person may not be best for another. Yet, realizing that there are so many posters and lurkers, my experience may resonate with a subset of those posters/lurkers, and help them through common issues I have had in the past.

Poster, been here so long, recognize common themes and common problems for beginning and developing writers (I am one of the latter). Being a little more selective in contributing to threads, being more forceful and direct on some issues, like self-discipline. Constantly learning from my own writing and using my experiences to address some of the problems newer writers are bringing up for discussion.

Poster, still taking some lumps (my foot has been in my mouth so many times I can't tell teeth from toenails), but also (hopefully) being helpful. Realizing that the real value of AW is in the discussions, particularly the ones that generate difference in opinions among posters, so both posters and lurkers can use the discussions to shape their personal approach to writing (so it then can be shaped by their own personal experiences--through their successes and failures).

There can be great value in having fresh eyes looking at what we do.

I feel the same as you, Fiender. I've been lurking far more than posting lately because of it.

Just to pick up on Cathy and Siri's points - there's plenty of places you can contribute to without having to get into critiquing or analysing language. The genre-specific and topic-specific boards have plenty of threads where you simply check in and say what's going on with you and your writing, and encourage other people. Those are incredibly valuable to this place as a community, and posting a few words to them here and there is just as much "contributing" as getting your crit on in SYW.