Alvin Lee Dead at 68

benbradley said:

There's so much political stuff I could get into - maybe there's room (actually I'm sure there is!) for one more thread in P&CE to discuss this stuff (such as the ways drug-related arrestees can "get out of going to prison for almost free"), but Lee did enough music to talk about the music and remember him for that.

I recall "Baby won't you let me rock and roll you" and how much it makes me think of the original meaning of the phrase "rock and roll" before it was applied to music (its origin is in the African-American community as a not-quite-crude euphemism for sex), and thought it might have been written by an old blues musician, though Wikipedia says it was written by Alvin Lee (as surely taken from the credits on the record label):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Space_in_Time
Also, this presumes he didn't rip off some bluesman the way Led Zeppelin and perhaps many others famously did.

Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcYyE6qen8s
And goodness, those lyrics are simple and repeated, even the two verses are the same with the lines turned around. With that in mind it's amazing it became a hit - the meaning is straight ahead, and it certainly lacks the thought and vagueness (as far as possible interpretations) of "I'd Love To Change The World."

Here's a guy playing guitar along with the original, and he's doing a pretty good job:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJVp9sybKE

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Know that one well, Ben. Here's an earlier one that shows their jazz roots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tq8aiDoVkc

Ken said:

... all you've got to do is personalize it.
Say that a musician put out a song that insulted your wife and you, along with your kids if you have some. Would you still listen to the musician? Well this isn't at all different. You've got a musician insulting a whole bunch of people. (Not necessarily speaking Alvin here. Just a hypothetical musician who's expressed something derogatory about a group and there's no shortage of supply with that.) A group consists of individuals. It is not an abstract entity. So by insulting a group and painting them in a bad light you're slamming individuals, which is no better than a musician singling you out, Bebop, and saying stuff about you and your family. Obviously not cool. So personally, I wouldn't listen to a musician who says outrightly hateful stuff. (Again, hypothetical musician.) But that's just my own perspective. Everyone is entitled to view things in their own way. And it's good there are different perspectives on matters, b/c no one way is most likely the right way of viewing a matter. Most likely a combination is. Yours, mine, Bens', Lilly's, Shadow's, Poet's ...

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How do you know it hasn't happened? I'm half Arab American for God's sake. Can you imagine the things I've heard over the past 12 yrs or so, sometimes from people I like? That's why I separate the two. That's what works for me. If it doesn't work for you, that's your business, but I know what works for me. But does that mean I'd buy these guys lunch if I ever ran into them? I know you said I'm more forgiving than you, but the truth is I am probably much less forgiving, and that's why I choose not to know. Because if I did, I don't wonder, but I know I'll be disappointed, and that's by one thing or another.

Ken said:

... probably similar to mine as an American Jew.
(The construction of a mock, cardboard gas chamber on a previous job took the cake.)
I do similar with avoiding bios, when possible as I don't really want to know the negative things.
But then these days the press is all over that (Mel Gibson, etc.) so that's a challenge.
Have learned that you've got to roll with the punches.
While making a stand at times for your people and for other people too.
Hate is hate and that effects us all. In general it just plain stinks.
Good one to you, pal Ken

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Yeah, no shortage of hate in the world, that's for sure. 'Course, we all know that hate is really a projection, but knowing that doesn't always make it easier to deal with. Sorry, sounds like you've had your share. Hang in there.

LillyPu said:

I'd like someone to explain to me why I love rap so much. As an American white woman, I see the lyrics as fictional stories--a story I'm interested in--in an appalling way! -- I mean they can be nastier than nasty. "How to Hate a Bitch" "She Will" There's some real bad stuff goes on. Still, I'm fascinated. Fiction is truer than truth. Do I like Chris Brown after he beat up Rhianna? Do I like Rhianna when she briefly went back to him? Forgave him? Do I even want any of that stuff shoved down my throat?

Re LZ: Their music runs through my veins. I can't remember a day in high school that Led Zeppelin wasn't playing on the radio, someone's record player, cassette tape, concert hall. I love classic rock, but I also am growing fond of dub-step. I'm open to every type of music, really. Except bluegrass, where a little bit goes a long way.

RIP Alvin Lee, still.

Thanks for the links, Ben.

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I listen to music for the music. The words are a distant second. I see the relationship between music and lyrics the same as the relationship between films and their scores. Just as a good score cannot save a horrible movie and a bad score can ruin an otherwise good movie, good lyrics cannot make bad music sound good, but bad enough lyrics can pretty much ruin an otherwise good song.

I'm not a big Rap fan. I'll quote Ray Charles here, one of the most creative singers of all time; when asked what he thought about Rap, Ray laughed and said, "That's talkin'!"

But in a sense, that's what Rap has over singin'. Because it is talkin' it's got a staccato rhythm that lends itself to a beat, even more so than sung lyrics that are elongated.

As far as the Chris Brown thing, that is actually very on point for me with regards to the earlier discussion. Never been a Brown or a Rihanna fan. Not that I disliked them, I just don't know their music, and what I've heard hasn't grabbed me so I was onto something else. However, if I had been a Chris Brown fan before he beat her up, I'm pretty sure that would have turned me off good and permanent. A slap, in the heat of an argument, I think it can happen, but her injuries indicated a prolonged beating, one that would have given him time to come to his senses.

Led? Oh, yeah. Not always the greatest tunes, for me, but Page on guitar and Plant on vocals is a combination that's hard to beat.

By the way, Lilly, how to you understand Rap lyrics? This is a serious question. Do you get them just by listening or do you have to read them to know what they're saying? If I didn't feel old enough this morning, having to ask this question has aged me on the spot.

LillyPu said:

If I like the music (yeah there's usually music) and if I like the beat -- usually I don't understand ALL the lyrics -- I'll look up the lyrics. And I still don't understand what some of the slang means. Then I have to ask the nearest person. And they either know and tell me, or don't.

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Yeah, don't get me wrong, I've heard some stuff and thought, Damn, I like that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWbXQQG9B6c

rugcat said:

As a musician and songwriter myself, I'd have to at least partially disagree. Though I actually do put the music first -- it's true that great lyrics won't save a crappy song.

But lyrics and music, at best, work together. Sometimes it's simple -- in the Beatles "I'm looking Through You" there's a line in the chorus -- ". . love has a nasty habit of disappearing overnight."

Great line; it sums up something universal we've all experienced or at least seen in one short, clever phrase.

But what really makes it is that the last two words have chord changes leading back to the theme. That's how words and music work together.

There are also lines in songs that have given me chills -- but without the melody that fits, would not have nearly the impact.

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Definitely. When the words and music work well together they are greater than their separate equal parts. The best stuff does this. I was only saying that at gun to the head time, I'll go with music. Some of the standards I think did it best. Funny, 'cause often they were written by two different writers, lyricist and composer. Or in the occasional case, by the singer. Sinatra got credit on two or three songs that I know of. This one was in the height or better yet the depth of his heartbreak over Ava. Notice how when there's a pang of hope it goes to a major key, only to descend back into a minor key as he faces his loss and hopelessness...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWwLcvLfV-k

Old Tele man said:

Bepop...for me, personally, the person and their music are two totally separate entities. I can love the music and ignore the musician with ease, because in my world people 'startout' as Zero's and earn/dig their ways UP or DOWN from there (± nadda).

For example, 'Sting' is definitely NOT my ideal person (actor, musician, singer), but I DO really like his bass playing in the song "Every Breath You Take." I may take the musical "hook" but I don't take the "bait."

And, FWIW, I often ignore the lyrics (and thus ALL words) and focus on just the music...like the Beatles. I love much of their music, but I can't stand listening to THEM play/sing it. Hence, my album & CD collection contains lots of OTHER musicians playing Beatles music, but it has no albums or CD's by them.

Just another long time string flinger here.

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Yeah, I just can't get started with that. There are a couple people that, if I'd been big fans of their music their behavior may have turned me off to the point that I could no longer listen. But I just cannot make a habit of monitoring the behavior of musicians, actors, writers that I love- it would be exhausting.