Anti-gay rights activists are the real victims!

The whole "you're oppressing me by not letting me freely oppress you" mindset really cheeses me off.

Dave.C.Robinson said:

You know what, I want it to be hard work for them. I want it to be unpleasant. They're spending their free time actively promoting something I can only describe as evil and so I don't want them to feel happy about trying to shove garbage down people's throats.

What really gets me about the oppenents is the sheer arrogance of the whole movement. Who gave them the right to make these decisions on the part of a group of people they pride themselves on not belonging to? Who died and made them God?

I don't care if someone I don't know marries a man or a woman regardless of anyone involved's gender. If it's not my marriage, it's not my business. (Unless I'm invited to the wedding, in which case I'd like to know enough about the people involved to be able to pick the right presents.) On another level, I care very much about this issue because I am very much opposed to the idea of people pushing their own religious beliefs on those who do not share them.

In one way I don't want to support equal marriage because I don't think any of it should be up to me. In another and far more important way, I have to support equal marriage because the choices have been made for me. I can either do nothing, and tacitly support evil or I can stand against it because it's evil.

I'd rather not have to care about whether someone I don't know can marry someone else I don't know, because it really shouldn't be any of my business. I hope someday I don't have to care, because we've got a lot more to worry about than butting our noses into who other people want to marry.

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I was going to type something, but it echoed everything you already said. So...+1!

I want to be impressed by the message, but all I can think is, "NINETY-NINE FRIEND REQUESTS?!"

"... but he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me."

OH, have you heard about the travesty at Seattle pride. I can't even bring myself to provide a link. There was a fight between gay pride goers and a couple protesters, caught on regular camera and video. According to which source you read, some say it was gay men who started the fight, others say it was a "lesbian mob". Either way, a fight went down, which just kills me inside. Someone told the preachers they were going to be "ass-raped" which makes me mad because they are totally feeding into their whole Sodom and Gomorrah paranoia. So good job. Because then I read about it on a Christian web site and people are just going nuts of course, very self-righteous, and posting completely bogus statistics like 78% per cent of homosexuals have STDs. Oh my god. It was horrible. So of course I had to post something. I said "They should have ignored the ignorant protesters" and not much else, didn't say I'm gay, but my picture shows up on the profile of me before I shaved half my head so I probably "look straight." When someone responded they said I was being a "sin-apologist" and blah blah Bible verse Bible verse, gays are god haters and there is nothing wrong with those people being there pointing there sin out to them and that even gays and lesbians who go to church conveniently ignore Bible verses which they don't like, and that I would probably respond with an attack which is "typical."

So I responded with "I'm not a sin-apologist, I'm a lesbian. So is my wife." And proceeded to say we both were raised in church, and that there are a lot of Bible verses out there that get conveniently ignored. And that I guess when I was ten and realized I liked girls God was just turning me over to my sins. Said I even went to a Christian college and tried reparative therapy. And that a lot of people don't know the truth, and that if gay people were really the STD-ridden polygamous atheists, self-righteous indignation would be warrented, but we are not. Then I said my goal is to educate, and to help suicidal teens who only hear hatred on every side.

Then I told myself I was not going back to that web site and even when I got an email notification that someone had responded to my comment I just deleted it. I'm not going back. I said what I needed to say and I won't traumatize myself by reading the screwed up crap.

Thanks, Seattle people in the fight. I do wish you had ignored them. All the peaceful Pride events will be ignored by anti-gay activists, and this one bad example will spread like wildfire. :-(

BenPanced said:

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/09/ant..._real_victims_of_the_marriage_equality_fight/

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The argument that it's historically true isn't true...

The Bible started out with polygamy and it only got bigger. (Plus Abram married his Half Sister Sarai, which if I read right is why he left his father's house. =P)

In addition, you have tribes where men marry men and in one place where women marry women too (albeit usually not because they are gay, but because of a shortage of men in the male line).

There is also polyandry, one woman, several brothers. (Created by need for land rights)

The idea that "traditional" marriage is between one man and one woman is a relatively new concept in world history and isn't traditional at all.

Hey, 16 year olds used to marry 40 year olds, traditionally too. (Mostly because men couldn't make it until later in life, thus affording a wife.)

Humans are more diverse than Ryan Anderson knows.

BTW, that sign that says, "Kids do best with a Mom and a Dad" makes me laugh.

Single parents. Also couples who marry and don't have children. Single parents (through divorce, affairs or being widowed) that choose to adopt or have IV. People who marry who are no longer fertile. People who are infertile and choose to marry. And parents that choose to never marry, but are raising kids together. (Though I bet I missed a few).

So disenfranchise the lot of them with the gay marriage advocates even though they are heterosexual?

Logic fail is astounding.

that article makes me sad.


I don't understand why someone would spend their days protesting against gay marriage at all. Do something else. Ugh. How does this take over a person's life?

Kim Fierce said:

that article makes me sad.

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I dunno. I was tickled by the part about young Christians possibly being led astray and into believing marriage should provide emotional fulfillment. God save us from EMOTIONAL FULFILLMENT!

Wow... I can't even begin to understand ANY of their logic in this... All I have to say is this...

JohnnyGottaKeyboard said:

I dunno. I was tickled by the part about young Christians possibly being led astray and into believing marriage should provide emotional fulfillment. God save us from EMOTIONAL FULFILLMENT!

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Well, emotional fulfillment is very important.

Ya, rlly! (Yes, sarcasm).

Sarcasm aside--not for you but for the Jesus-loves-me crowd--who says that same-sex couples DON'T have emotional fulfillment or that heterosexual couples DO?

God, the hypocrisy of people really pisses me off sometimes. You would think the Christian right would have something better to do with their time. Sadly, they don't.

J.S.F. said:

---
Sarcasm aside--not for you but for the Jesus-loves-me crowd--who says that same-sex couples DON'T have emotional fulfillment or that heterosexual couples DO?

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Yeah, seriously. It seems like their perspective is "How can there be emotional fulfillment in a relationship if it's steeped in sin?!"
Personally I'm asexual, but not aromantic, so my question in response to this is mostly "why does the kind of sex even matter if you love the other person?"

I can't even begin to see the logic behind their ideas.

StormChord said:

Yeah, seriously. It seems like their perspective is "How can there be emotional fulfillment in a relationship if it's steeped in sin?!"
Personally I'm asexual, but not aromantic, so my question in response to this is mostly "why does the kind of sex even matter if you love the other person?"

I can't even begin to see the logic behind their ideas.

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That's because they've tossed logic out the window and based their opinions on faith with a healthy dose of fear added to the mix.

Y'know, your last line is very similar to what I wrote in a novel, the idea of love. When I told my wife I'd be doing a gender switch type of novel with lesbian overtones and then wrote a lesbian novel (both will be published next year) she asked me why. I told her they were stories and ideas, and that love was where you found it, not what form it's in.

She smiled and kissed me. "That's why I married you," she said. It made my day.

J.S.F. said:

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She smiled and kissed me. "That's why I married you," she said. It made my day.

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D'awww :3

Soooo, feeling like a stranger here. There is a lot more that goes into the gay rights issue than normally gets talked about. The only one that really disturbs me is that an individuals decisions to disagree with a gay stance on something for religious reasons gets regulated away.

So far, the track record has been that the LGBT group has been legislating morality as bad as the far right.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ish-couples-win-right-to-marry-in-church.html

Now I don't know about you guys, but when you start telling religious people to do something against their beliefs, there is oppression happening.

For me personally, I really don't care what people do if they leave me alone. I don't care if all of my neighbors were to be gay all of sudden. If they let me practice my religion openly without persecution then I'm fine with it.

Hope this was a voice of reason. I'm uh, not good at expressing my real opinion in a clear manner sometimes.

J.S.F. said:

Sarcasm aside--not for you but for the Jesus-loves-me crowd--who says that same-sex couples DON'T have emotional fulfillment or that heterosexual couples DO?

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I didn't get that that was what they were saying. I understood it as "Marriage is not about emotional fulfillment, it is about one man and one woman having a child."

I understood their fear was that young Christians might begin to believe that emotional fulfillment should become a factor in who is allowed to marry and might eventually trump whether or not the two people marrying were of the opposite sex.

That's why I found (that part of) the article so funny. It seemed to me the Christians/Anti-Gay-Marriage folks were saying "Marriage isn't about emotional fulfillment; it's about making babies!" Which, of course, flies in the face of all those opposite sex marriages where no children are ever made...

Nivarion said:

So far, the track record has been that the LGBT group has been legislating morality as bad as the far right.

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I'm not sure your citation backs up your claim. So far? In all the history of the world? In all the history of Denmark? I think "we gays" have a little more ground to make up...

Nivarion said:

Soooo, feeling like a stranger here. There is a lot more that goes into the gay rights issue than normally gets talked about. The only one that really disturbs me is that an individuals decisions to disagree with a gay stance on something for religious reasons gets regulated away.

So far, the track record has been that the LGBT group has been legislating morality as bad as the far right.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ish-couples-win-right-to-marry-in-church.html

Now I don't know about you guys, but when you start telling religious people to do something against their beliefs, there is oppression happening.

For me personally, I really don't care what people do if they leave me alone. I don't care if all of my neighbors were to be gay all of sudden. If they let me practice my religion openly without persecution then I'm fine with it.

Hope this was a voice of reason. I'm uh, not good at expressing my real opinion in a clear manner sometimes.

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As a straight white dude, I also feel a bit out of place in this thread, but where I go along is on the issue of human rights regardless of religion. By that I mean I could care less who gets married, be it straight, gay, interracial...whatever.

The problem I have with the religious right is NOT that they don't approve of gay marriage. They're entitled to their beliefs. What bothers me is that they're disapproving of it in a religious sense which has been made into law over the decades/centuries. In other words, their religious beliefs on same-sex marriages have been enacted into laws preventing same-sex marriages.

Now we have the matter of same-sex marriages being approved by the state which bothers the religious right for some unknown reason. If enacted nationwide, no one as far as I know is telling them they have to give up their religion. No one as far as I know is telling them they have to suddenly approve of anything. What I take from this discussion is that if two people of the same sex wish to get married then that is their right and the laws of the land should reflect that right. Nothing more and nothing less.

On another forum one individual who professes to be very religious said he was against the idea and when I asked him why, he just quoted the Bible and said it was sinful, not good, etcetera etcetera etcetera. When I asked him if gay marriage was approved would it take away his right to go to his church or earn a living or go to a restaurant, he couldn't answer. No one could.

And that's the point. According to statistics, the number of gay people in the world is considered to be around ten percent. Maybe a bit higher, but whatever. So that percentage is so low then how is it possible for it to have a serious impact on anything?

I sincerely doubt there's a gay agenda going on to somehow turn everyone gay around the globe as some right-wingers would have you believe. Is it going to change the economy or the military or who likes movies more than stage plays? Obviously not. It deprives no one of anything.

Like you, people can practice whatever religion or sexual orientation they profess to believe in. As long as it doesn't infringe on my rights then they can do what they like. I don't see how two men getting married or two women getting married can hurt anyone else.

No one is going to flock to churches and force preachers who are against gay marriage to marry a couple. Why would you want that awkwardness? It should still be legalized, but if you don't like gay marriage, just don't get gay married.

I have been with a woman for almost 6 years who I consider my wife, and we have a child and are planning one more. We don't have certain benefits that married couples do. In certain states, we couldn't even visit each other if one of us were hospitalized because we aren't considered "family." That's the problem. If some religions don't believe it is right, that's their business. . . we aren't trying to change them, they want to change us.

Kim Fierce said:

No one is going to flock to churches and force preachers who are against gay marriage to marry a couple. Why would you want that awkwardness? It should still be legalized, but if you don't like gay marriage, just don't get gay married.

I have been with a woman for almost 6 years who I consider my wife, and we have a child and are planning one more. We don't have certain benefits that married couples do. In certain states, we couldn't even visit each other if one of us were hospitalized because we aren't considered "family." That's the problem. If some religions don't believe it is right, that's their business. . . we aren't trying to change them, they want to change us.

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Yes, I agree that it is wrong for the religions to force their worldview on those who are LGBT. I see it happen on both ends of the spectrum and don't like either of it.

I also don't like the strong and frequent demonizing of both sides.

To restate, I'm very much a centralist on the issue. While I have strong religious beliefs concerning gay behaviors (not sure how to refer to it all) I also believe that God gave us this life to learn how to make choices for ourselves. To chose between good and evil, and to learn consequences. I see God as a loving father, who cares about all of his children. I also believe that this life has another goal of learning to be like God, as much as we can.

Our Heavenly Father cautions, he councils and he guides. He doesn't force our choices except in very rare circumstances, and loves all of his children despite any mess ups or choices they make.

In this regard, I believe that many of christian sects overstep their bounds and miss their mark in not loving or hating those with a different moral code that they are following.

But in their defense, when you see something you feel is immoral, don't you step in to try and stop it? From their point of view that is all they are doing.

I could talk about this for a long time. I am a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) and served a two year mission in the San Francisco bay area. I spent a lot of time in study and prayer on this subject and believe that our Heavenly Father has a merciful plan in store for all of his children who are doing the best with what they know. But I have no hard answers.

Nivarion said:

Yes, I agree that it is wrong for the religions to force their worldview on those who are LGBT. I see it happen on both ends of the spectrum and don't like either of it.

I also don't like the strong and frequent demonizing of both sides.

To restate, I'm very much a centralist on the issue. While I have strong religious beliefs concerning gay behaviors (not sure how to refer to it all) I also believe that God gave us this life to learn how to make choices for ourselves. To chose between good and evil, and to learn consequences. I see God as a loving father, who cares about all of his children. I also believe that this life has another goal of learning to be like God, as much as we can.

Our Heavenly Father cautions, he councils and he guides. He doesn't force our choices except in very rare circumstances, and loves all of his children despite any mess ups or choices they make.

In this regard, I believe that many of christian sects overstep their bounds and miss their mark in not loving or hating those with a different moral code that they are following.

But in their defense, when you see something you feel is immoral, don't you step in to try and stop it? From their point of view that is all they are doing.

I could talk about this for a long time. I am a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) and served a two year mission in the San Francisco bay area. I spent a lot of time in study and prayer on this subject and believe that our Heavenly Father has a merciful plan in store for all of his children who are doing the best with what they know. But I have no hard answers.

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While I agree with you about the part about some Christian sects overstepping their boundaries (paragraph number five above) you sort of contradicted yourself when you wrote "He (I presume you mean God) loves...all his children despite any mess ups or choices they make". I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that you are referring to God loving all those who are gay or have made a mistake in BEING gay...or did I misinterpret that?

There is nothing "immoral" with what gay people do any more than there is anything immoral with what straight people do. It is only "immoral" in your perceived sense of the word as taught by your religious interpretation of the word. People are people. Stepping in and trying to stop it (your words) interferes with their freedom of choice. It effectively takes away their rights in some circumstances.

Hey, no one is saying you have to agree with a different sexual orientation. No one is forcing you to believe in it or practice it. But at the same time, you have recognized that some Christian sects have overstepped their boundaries. I don't recall any LGBT groups attempting to 'force' straight people to do things their way.

There is a phrase that comes to mind. "Live and let live."

I try to practice that every day. JMO...

J.S.F. said:

-----or did I misinterpret that?

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I'd say yes. Part of what I was saying was my views on the pro-strait activists, and other parts were my personal views.

That should probably clear up the confusion about contradicting myself.

As for if it is a mistake/immoral or not to be 'gay' is a much more complicated question. And a very long answer. To say it shortly, I think there is a lot more in play that God knows that we don't. Knowing too much would destroy the learning experience that is life. I also know that he is a lot more merciful than we as limited beings can understand.

Two of my favorite quotes from one of our prophets I feel I should include.
“Nothing will surprise us more than when we get to heaven and see the Father and realize how well we know Him and how familiar His face is to us."

“God loves us. He's watching us, he wants us to succeed, and we'll know someday that he has not left one thing undone for the eternal welfare of each of us. If we only knew it, there are heavenly hosts pulling for us -- friends in heaven that we can't rememer now, who yearn for our victory.”

Ezra Taft Benson.

MacAllister said:

Nivarion, I strongly recommend you read the room stickies before you post here again.

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Uh, we cross posted. Reading stickies now.