Cursing in a fantasy world

JRehnay

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Swearing doesn't bother me in any sort of novel, and I think it has a place in fantasy as long as the author can back it up. By that, I mean if the author has the characters speaking in regular English for EVERYTHING else, I expect them to curse "regularly" as well.

If the fantasy has made it clear there is no deity to worship or pantheon of gods, etc, then I expect the author to come up with something believable the characters might say in its place. Conversely, if the fantasy states there is a god, there are gods, or in any way makes references to Christianity's "God" specifically, I fully expect the characters to curse accordingly.
 

Little Anonymous Me

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I chose to say fuck in my high fantasy novel. In fact, I chose to keep all modern swearwords. Here is the reasoning:


1. I'm 'translating' this thing. They are most certainly not speaking English where I'm writing. If I'm calling a pine tree a pine tree, I'm certainly not going to tiptoe around the tulips. I will not substitute the word that best fits simply because it might not be as 'authentic' as a fake word with no real meaning might be in its place.


2. I'm writing about people who kill, rape, and torture. They certainly aren't going to be saying "Oh dearie me" if things don't go well. There is no religion, so that's right out. They have a few cultural blasphemes, but that's generally not the first thing people yell if they stub their toe. And they don't work in an 'ing' form either, sadly.


3. When I have them swear (which is not terribly often) I want you to understand that shit is bad. Look at the previous sentence. I could have used crap. Which one would have gotten more attention and to my point quicker?


4. If you ever want to have some fun, look up the ancient Roman swearwords. Guess which word they had (multiple) versions of? Zat darn F-bomb. (History of swearing is really cool. Highly recommended in general.)


5. What the smerp. I like doing things my own way. I tried fake ones for a bit. Didn't work. Everyone's mileage will obviously vary.



Question about the "only people with no imagination and limited vocabulary swear" thing...what on earth is so limited about using the word that is most appropriate at that particular moment?
 

Marian Perera

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Question about the "only people with no imagination and limited vocabulary swear" thing...what on earth is so limited about using the word that is most appropriate at that particular moment?

Heh. That reminds me of a previous discussion about swearing where one poster said the f-word would only "entertain giggling little school boys who pleasure themselves by hearing it".

I use the f-word in my romantic fantasies because it packs a punch when you're not expecting it (and I use it once, or at the most twice per book, so I'm pretty sure no one's expecting it). In both cases it was a specific reference to sex, so I couldn't substitute a made-up word, and in both cases someone said it to the heroine at the height of a tense moment to upset her. No word would have worked as well as that one did.
 

Mr Flibble

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Question about the "only people with no imagination and limited vocabulary swear" thing...what on earth is so limited about using the word that is most appropriate at that particular moment?


At this point in the convo (and yes, it's come up more than once) I like to link to Stephen Fry on the Joys of Swearing. Note, it contains rude words. I also like to note that Mr Fry swears quite copiously and cannot be said to have a limited vocabulary.
 

vgunn

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Occasional swearing is fine with me. I prefer using real profanity rather than fake cursing. Give me fuck over frak any day.

Someone mentioned reading the phrase 'a shoal of cunts' which I found brilliant. Definitely will make its way into a whorehouse scene of mine.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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The issue many have with curse words in fantasy is that so many are tied to culture, so those that work for the reader's culture may not for the character. In my novel Amadar, I use "Hammer it!" as the primary curse because the main deity is called the Forger.
 

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The Dutch use diseases a lot. Kanker (cancer) for example. Kanker-this, kanker-that. Teens use it a lot, but when you reach a certain age, say 18+, using it in company is a major no-no.

Then there's tyfus (typhoid), used the same way as kanker. Much milder a swearword than kanker is, but still not advisable.

Tering (tuberculosis), a word similar to tyfus.

One can string these together, perhaps adding religious profanities, like Jezusteringtyfuskankerchristus! That one would be seriously frowned upon, by the way.

But I doubt it all has the same ring in English, though. All these words employ hard t's, r's and k's, which sound agressive if you swear in Dutch. Perhaps each language has it's own swearwords that sound most impressive, partly because of the sounds they are comprised of.

I remember running across that on the web somewhere and thinking it was cool. I'm actually using this ideas for one of my cultures that doesn't have a concept of hell as we understand it (so they can't use words like hell or damned as language enhancers) but are concerned with health and cleanliness. So words like plagued, blighted, stagnated are more salient to them. Though there is enough contact between different religions and cultures that there is some "cross-contamination" in terms of idioms, just like there is in modern America.

Like Mr. Fry, I am always a bit nonplussed by the idea that swearing is primarily a lower class phenomenon or shows a lack of education and vocabulary. My dad was a university professor and a very well read man with a very extensive vocabulary, and he swore extensively and creatively, running the spectrum from stock in trade f and s bombs, to more colorful expressions. And I didn't notice an absence of swearing when he and his colleagues got together either. When I was a kid, there was still a double standard, though, and swearing was something "daddies did more than mommies." If my mom swore in front of us kids, you knew you were REALLY in trouble.

I don't swear in professional situations, or in public situations where I don't know people well enough to know whether they'll be offended. As a kid, swear words were something you said around other kids, when you thought the grownups couldn't hear you. And swear words were something grownups said around other grownups (usually) when they thought the kids couldn't hear them. But I learned while living in the dorms in college that some people are really bothered by it, even between age peers, and you can't always predict who. At home, in the bosom of family, though? I'm a foul little thing.

But whether or not we use these words in our own lives, people do and always have, and it seems unrealistic to omit it entirely from fiction, unless you are going for a sort of fairy tale or formal, mythological feel to your fantasy, rather than a more "immersed in the world and characters" tone.

But I do think about when various characters use strong language, who my characters swear "in front of," and which words they use.
 
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Zedul

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The commentaries on this thread have been illuminating. Thanks everyone! I actually made some tweeks in my manuscript that I am quite happy with as a result.
 

PeteMC

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But I do think about when various characters use strong language, who my characters swear "in front of," and which words they use.

This is a very good point - most of my characters (magicians, demons and gangsters alike) are fairly foul-mouthed in everyday conversation. I've got one character who never swears at all. Ever. Until the one time she calls someone a cunt.

I like to think it makes quite an impact. :)
 

Canotila

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This was the problem I had. My world had no religion in it. It took a lot of thinking to come up with some decent epithets and exclamations.

Whenever this comes up it reminds me of a friend who toured a Nazi POW camp in Poland. The cells where they kept the Soviet POWs had all kinds of graffiti on the walls, where the prisoners had written the foulest profanities imaginable in reference to their captors.

The only one he felt comfortable sharing was rat penises. It really makes me wonder what else they wrote.
 

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Others have said similar things: if it is contempory fantasy, like The Magicians, then you have to curse and it's completely okay to do so.

If it is a secondary world then I absolutely think you should swear. I follow the 'translation' idea for secondary world stuff: in which case when your elf start cursing it's gonna come out--on the page--as some modern swearing that I can understand since 'By Borleian's Taint!' doesn't mean anything to me, the reader.
 

Roxxsmom

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I follow the 'translation' idea for secondary world stuff: in which case when your elf start cursing it's gonna come out--on the page--as some modern swearing that I can understand since 'By Borleian's Taint!' doesn't mean anything to me, the reader.

You have a point here, though I would argue that sprinkling curses like these into your character's vernacular can contribute to world building.

For instance, having a character say this would tell me that:

1. There is a being in his/her mythology who was known as Borleian

2. This being was corrupted or tainted in some way that is relevant to that mythology or to the history of that world.

Of course, other little bits about the gods, heroes and history of the world can serve to elaborate on this/fill things in here.
 

SevasTra82

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I don't mind cursing in a book as long as it's used as a plot device and brings something to the character, and not just "thrown in there" for shock value. For instance, if your trying to portray a certain character as a crude, self-centered drunk, then yes, I could imagine that character using foul language.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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I don't mind cursing in a book as long as it's used as a plot device and brings something to the character, and not just "thrown in there" for shock value. For instance, if your trying to portray a certain character as a crude, self-centered drunk, then yes, I could imagine that character using foul language.

In many situations, the absence of strong language can severely hurt the verisimilitude of the story. Expletives are very common, and the trick is finding ones to fit the voice of the story. They are not something to drive the plot, or denote negative stereotypes to a character, they are a form of speech pattern and can illuminate any character.

As for using modern ones in a fantasy, I would think that it depends at least in part on the voice the author is using. If the narrative voice sounds contemporary, modern language can work; if it doesn't, then it can throw the reader off because it doesn't work well with other word choices.

It all comes down to Dave's first rule: you can do anything so long as it works.
 

Roxxsmom

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I don't mind cursing in a book as long as it's used as a plot device and brings something to the character, and not just "thrown in there" for shock value. For instance, if your trying to portray a certain character as a crude, self-centered drunk, then yes, I could imagine that character using foul language.

Throwing expletives in for shock value would indeed be a stupid strategy, and not the least because for many (possibly most) people, swearing isn't all that shocking in of itself (though context is everything--I'd be shocked if my doctor swore at me during a medical exam, but not if my cousin (who is most emphatically not a rude, self-centered drunk) used a swear word to accentuate her strong negative feelings about something during a phone conversation). Most people swear at least occasionally and in contexts where they feel it is safe or acceptable or when they are pushed beyond a certain point.

I can't think of any published fantasy book where I felt the author was using profanity simply to shock readers. It was always about establishing voice, tone and character. Whether that voice, and tone works for you, or whether you think a character who swears is ever sympathetic or likable is a judgment call, of course.
 
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Mr Flibble

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And people will see exactly what you've done if you skirt around it (unless you are clever like the Red Dwarf people and make up a mildly amusing word into a swear that crucially sounds liek a swear)

If you swear, you will turn off some people

If no one swears you will turn off other people


Which demographic are you aiming for?
 

C. G. Hagy

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My characters use English to say everything else, why create a special sub-category for this very specific portion of expression?

Personally, I find the made up swearing at best jarring and at worst downright silly. It's very rare that it actually works, outside of a few examples (Firefly, Red Dwarf).
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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My characters use English to say everything else, why create a special sub-category for this very specific portion of expression?

Personally, I find the made up swearing at best jarring and at worst downright silly. It's very rare that it actually works, outside of a few examples (Firefly, Red Dwarf).

The problem is that swearing is tied to culture, and by using modern English expressions in this case, you're indicating the other culture has similar standards of what's offensive... which may not be the case.

Some profanity, especially obscenities, may carry over very well; most blasphemies won't.
 

Roxxsmom

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And people will see exactly what you've done if you skirt around it (unless you are clever like the Red Dwarf people and make up a mildly amusing word into a swear that crucially sounds liek a swear)

If you swear, you will turn off some people

If no one swears you will turn off other people


Which demographic are you aiming for?

To some extent, the nature of yours story is going to determine this. If you're writing for a religious market, or for kids or for younger teens, or are shooting for a fairy tale or "elevated" feel to your setting and prose, then rich and modern sounding expletives might stand out like a pimple on a prom queen's nose.

But if you are writing for a more mainstream adult market, and if you are shooting for a more gritty or "realistic" feel to your fantasy world, then a complete absence of swearing make the thing feel artificially sanitized.

And the nature of your story and setting will probably determine to a large extent whether or not your target audience will have many people who are categorically offended by swearing. Chances are, readers who prefer grittier or darker stories are not going to be terribly offended by in-character profanity. Readers who prefer high-minded tales of chivalry with traditional heroes might be, or at least, they're less likely to roll their eyes if your character says "bleeding ashes" instead of "bloody hell."
 

Mr Flibble

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Some profanity, especially obscenities, may carry over very well; most blasphemies won't.

Indeed. But making up blasphemies is fun! My MC is fond of saying 'Goddess's tits!', Though he notes that when his brother, an extremely pious man, says it, it must mean they are all in BIG trouble.
 

Roxxsmom

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Indeed. But making up blasphemies is fun! My MC is fond of saying 'Goddess's tits!', Though he notes that when his brother, an extremely pious man, says it, it must mean they are all in BIG trouble.

Ha! In a similar vein, they refer to Domhara's (a bountiful fertility goddess) tits in my novel, but one of my main characters is of a fairly polite bent, so she says "Domhara's breasts" in one scene--to the amusement of her less restrained friends.

She does, however, utter the cruder version of the oath in a later scene when she's really angry.

I agree that the made up blasphemies are fun in fantasy, and they can actually fill in a bit of worldbuilding.
 

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I'm writing in a polytheistic fantasy setting where the major oaths ans swears are tied to aspects of the deity in question.

Instead of telling someone to "go to Hell" they would say "Terkan eat your soul!"

When invoking the protector god, they might say "Teagwyn shield us" if they are reverently asking for protection.

For the more scatological oaths, I concur that ye olde English is a fine source.