how do you deal with language barrier betweens humans and aliens?

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lbender

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I don't think there's room in this box to explain.... My use was however intended to indicate humorous intent. Which perhaps didn't come across.

I shall stick to smilies in future!

Wow - I know exactly how you feel. I picked up on your humorous intent and thought I was responding in kind. Apparently it wasn't interpreted that way. One of the problems with this form of communication, I suppose.

"I guess the smilies might work, although there may be another option," I said with a grin. Just don't ask me to use "LOL". It makes me gag.

Also, my relatives aren't that bad as a general rule - just the occasional hiccups, so to speak.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Wow - I know exactly how you feel. I picked up on your humorous intent and thought I was responding in kind. Apparently it wasn't interpreted that way. One of the problems with this form of communication, I suppose.

oh lordy I am so bad at this!

What about virtual hugs? they ok? :)
 

BabySealWriter

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There was one episode of Next Generation where the Enterprise came across an alien ship whose language translated to English, but they spoke in metaphors, so the meaning was untranslatable. Communication was achieved by total immersion. Sorry - I don't remember the name of the episode.

The episode is titled "Darmok" and is the 2nd episode of the 5th season of Next Generation. It is one of my favorite episodes, well written, and entertaining. The episode makes a few asspulls, but hey its TV.
 

Diver

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I think Carl Sagan did this pretty good in Contact.
The aliens used mathematical relationships to teach logical concepts and then build up on higher language structures.
 

lpetrich

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Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence contains someone's presentation on the subject.

One would do it by introducing simple mathematical concepts, like
. = 0
1 = 1
11 = 2
111 = 3
1111 = 4
...
and move on to describe arithmetic and logical operations:
1 + 0 = 1
1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 3
2 + 0 = 2
2 + 3 = 5
...
1*0 = 0
1*1 = 1
1*2 = 2
2*0 = 2
2*3 = 6
...
(2 == 2) = true
(2 != 2) = false
(2 == 3) = false
(2 < 3) = true
(2 > 3) = false
...
Variables:
2 + x = 3
x = 1
Functions:
f(x) = 2*x + 3
f(2) = 7
Various properties:
For all x, x + 0 = x
For all x, y, z, x*(y+z) = (x*y) + (x*z)
Negative numbers:
x + 2 = 0
x = -2
Rational numbers:
2*x = 3
x = 2/3
Algebraic numbers:
x^2 = 2
x = sqrt(2), -sqrt(2)
Complex numbers:
x^2 = -1
x = i, -i
Sequences and limits:
a(n) = 1/2^n
For n arbitrarily large, a(n) is arbitrarily close to 0
Cauchy sequences: define convergence without using an explicit limit
Real numbers are Cauchy-sequence limits of rational-number sequences -- generalizes adding decimal digits or place-system ones in general

One can continue in this vein to define more general limits, differentiation, integration, differential equations, vectors, matrices, linear algebra, group theory, Lie algebras, geometry, statistics, ...
 

benbenberi

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And from there, assuming that the alien shares the buried assumptions within the math and understands mathematical relations and principles in ways that are mutually comprehensible with ours, one might build a base of mathematical communication, and that might be interesting.

But how do you get from there to, "I'm hungry," or "You're standing in my spot," or "That's a beautiful sunrise," or "I believe in truth, justice, and liberty"? The things that make communication tricky between fellow humans are things that can't be boiled down to math, or derived from it.
 

lpetrich

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And from there, assuming that the alien shares the buried assumptions within the math and understands mathematical relations and principles in ways that are mutually comprehensible with ours, one might build a base of mathematical communication, and that might be interesting.
They live in the same Universe that we do, and they'll likely have to devise the same math for describing it.

They could even be motivated by considering their own thoughts. One thought, two thoughts, three thoughts, ...

But how do you get from there to, "I'm hungry," or "You're standing in my spot," or "That's a beautiful sunrise," or "I believe in truth, justice, and liberty"? The things that make communication tricky between fellow humans are things that can't be boiled down to math, or derived from it.
I shall continue. The next step will be to do the parts of physical science (physics, chemistry, astronomy, geology, ...) that are universally shared or at least can be observed by both us and them.

The message would contain pictures of stars and galaxies, and would explain in cartoon form what a star is and what its composition is. To give further hints, one would send over the Periodic Table of Elements, depicting each element's electron shell filling in cartoon form. One would also show how atoms combine into molecules, by cartoons showing electrons shared between atoms. For even more hints, one would send the frequencies / wavelengths of various spectral lines and the atoms and molecules that generate them. Spectral lines of both stars and the interstellar medium.

Once one gets the idea of chemical elements across, one can look smaller and do that with atomic nuclei and elementary particles. One can also look bigger and get across a lot of macroscopic features:

Temperature, solid, liquid, gas, electrical conduction, magnetic properties, light, ..

Also features of planets. Though their planetary system or known planetary systems won't necessarily be very close to what our Solar System has, they'd likely have a good idea of what a planet is.

This seems like a lot of song and dance, but you won't be able to take a glass of water and point to its contents and say "That is water". Instead, you'd have to say "The stars are mostly composed of the first two entries in this table, and two of the first entry and one of the eighth entry combine to make water."
 

lpetrich

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With this foundation in place, one can get into things that are largely Earth-specific, like biology and social relations. However, there are likely features that are widely shared, like evolution by natural selection, molecules of heredity, etc.

So you'd convey the idea that we need to eat to survive, and that being hungry is wanting more food.

Standing in my spot? You'd describe territoriality and property claims.

Beautiful sunset? You'd describe what a sunset is, the Sun's line of sight going below the horizon but the Sun continuing to illuminate the air near its line of sight. Then you'd describe watching something, and then you'd describe how some activities you like to perform and some activities you don't.

Believing in truth, justice, and liberty? I'd have to think a bit more, but it could be done by building up these concepts in the fashion that I've described, I think.
 

Elias Graves

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I remember that one. I don't even think it was metaphor it was events. They spoke in events, because in their context they all knew what the implications were. But the humans didn't. IF we're thinking of the same episode.

Humans do that to on a smaller level. We all know about September 11th, when Kennedy was shot, and regionally we know about weather disasters, that big snow storm of 93 or the the APril 27 tornado. But we use language to articulate those things, we don't just reference the event.
Sorry- tangent.

Great episode. That one was a good examination of communication. The Enterprise crew were able to translate the words but the metaphors used had no meaning to humans. "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra!"

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tamarian_language
 
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With this foundation in place, one can get into things that are largely Earth-specific, like biology and social relations. However, there are likely features that are widely shared, like evolution by natural selection, molecules of heredity, etc.

So you'd convey the idea that we need to eat to survive, and that being hungry is wanting more food.

Standing in my spot? You'd describe territoriality and property claims.

Beautiful sunset? You'd describe what a sunset is, the Sun's line of sight going below the horizon but the Sun continuing to illuminate the air near its line of sight. Then you'd describe watching something, and then you'd describe how some activities you like to perform and some activities you don't.

Believing in truth, justice, and liberty? I'd have to think a bit more, but it could be done by building up these concepts in the fashion that I've described, I think.


It sounds good in theory, but making the jump from math to science is infinitely more realistic than making the jump from science to communication.

Plus, what if their science is different from ours? Scientific models are based on perception as much as actual fact.

Maybe eventually you'd get to be able to express very basic concepts.

You'd also have to keep their attention long enough to get through all these steps.
 

William E. Harlan

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You could look for common ground and start with understanding on that level.
Safety, hunger and companionship might be common needs.
Helping each other to meet those needs or noticing that we are infringing upon each others' needs could be a basis of communication.
Also, misunderstandings are gold.
"Aww, he needs companionship. I'll give him a hug."
"Squaaawk! That idiot tried to touch me!"
 

Rheinman

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Alien Communication

A few different examples:

In the Stargate series, the four ancient races built a common translation based on universal constants such as chemistry and the periodic table. Hydrogen is hydrogen, no matter what you call it, so they based their inter-species communications on scientific constants and built from there.


Which reminds me of another Star Trek TNG episode, where the aliens sent dream images of "one moon circles" requesting that the Enterprise give them hydrogen to help both ships get out of a negative space wedgie.


For more complex discussion of the difficulties in interspecies communication, I just finished reading Jack Campbell's Lost Fleet: Invincible, where they were able to establish basic communication with an alien species, but were having trouble with abstractions. It was proposed that the difficulty lay in how each species thought and constructed their language to match.



(Spoiler Alert)



For example, humans tend to think in terms of opposites and try to fit things into one category or another: yes/no, black/white, friend/foe, while the Dancers saw things in terms of patterns and how each fact or concept added to or changed the existing pattern.
 

lpetrich

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It sounds good in theory, but making the jump from math to science is infinitely more realistic than making the jump from science to communication.
How would that be the case? One would build on what both we and they can observe, as I'd described.
Plus, what if their science is different from ours? Scientific models are based on perception as much as actual fact.
So their theories might look unrecognizable to us?

That's certainly a risk, but that's a risk with *all* communications with ET's.

Might it be possible to test science-development hypotheses using humanity's history? That's rather hard for the more advanced science, because it's been the result of a fairly unified community. So one has to look at premodern beliefs, especially very old ones.

A possible test is what number systems people use: Numeral (linguistics) - Wikipedia. The people with the lowest technology usually don't have words for numbers greater than 2, most likely from not having much that they have to count. But with agriculture comes the need to count a lot of stuff, and thus to have words for numbers much greater than 2. Having separate words for lots of numbers is awkward, and many people have invented number-base systems. The most common base is 10, followed by 20. That's from how many fingers and toes we have.

Counting languages is not enough, because their speakers may have inherited their number words from speakers of some ancestral language. But even when one does the historical-linguistics work, one finds several inventions of number-base systems, usually with 10 or 20.

Here's a big collection: Numbers in Over 5000 Languages -- 1 to 10, so it may not do justice to bases like 12 and 20.
 

AutumnKQ

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Hmmm Stargate. Where everyone in history spoke 20th century English. (Despite the fact that the Goa'uld pulled their slaves from Ancient Egypt, Greece, etc...) I do LOVE Stargate, btw.
Or...
Farscape- John gets "translator microbes" injected into him as soon as he gets pulled onto the Leviathan.

Mass Effect- I guess everyone already spoke the same language to communicate, right?

It seems to me that movies and shows get away with a lot of leeway when it comes to stuff like this (like communicating and space travel). Are readers so forgiving?
 

benbenberi

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How would that be the case? One would build on what both we and they can observe, as I'd described.

So their theories might look unrecognizable to us?

That's certainly a risk, but that's a risk with *all* communications with ET's.

I see now - you are starting from the assumption that meaningful communication is possible (as well as desired by all parties).

I would suggest that that's an awfully big assumption, on the same scale as assuming that an alien intelligence must reside in mobile, carbon-based individual organisms that share our perceptual and other biological biases and use words and other linguistic structures to communicate with each other.

There are other modes of being, though, and other modes of perception that we can't share and may not understand. How does one start to communicate with a Really Clever Blobby Collective that uses chemical signals in the water to communicate?

The notion that mathematics and science are universally valid and comprehensible as a basis for communication also has some pretty huge assumptions built into it. Even if all human societies developed the same underpinnings of math & science (which I will grant as a baseline, since I don't know of any counterexamples, and the same math/science can apparently be translated adequately into all human languages) -- we're still dealing with a sample of one, relative to the rest of the universe. We're all the same organism, biologically speaking. We see, hear, and perceive a narrow range of environmental stimuli. Things like bilateral symmetry and handedness are so pervasive in our biome and our experience that we can't really control for them to recognize how they influence our thinking. It is natural and obvious to us to conceptualize the universe in binary terms -- day/night, up/down, on/off, me/not-me, something/nothing. That's so foundational to our thinking it's nearly impossible to step outside it. How can the universe be structured if we take away the possibility of a dichotomy? How would we start to communicate with (or even recognize) an intelligence that is truly alien?


Counting languages is not enough, because their speakers may have inherited their number words from speakers of some ancestral language. But even when one does the historical-linguistics work, one finds several inventions of number-base systems, usually with 10 or 20.

All human counting starts with 1. Humans are hard-wired to recognize numbers: 1, 2, more-than-two. It seems to be biological. Some of our fellow-earth-creatures appear to share the ability, so it's probably rooted pretty deep in our evolutionary development. Take away the common biology, however: can we be certain the numbers are still there with the same meaning for the alien mind?

Maybe. Maybe not. It's an assumption, not a fact.

For dramatic purposes, a writer can make a leap of faith and presuppose that communication can happen, and then get on with the story as desired. That's one of the basic tropes of SF. But we would be wrong to confuse that with reality.
 

William E. Harlan

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I see now - you are starting from the ass...
I would suggest that that's an awfully big ass...
...on the same scale as ass...
[and]...also has some pretty huge ass...

Humans are hard-wired to recognize [ass]. It seems to be biological. Some of our fellow-earth-creatures appear to share the ability, so it's probably rooted pretty deep in our evolutionary development. Take away the common biology, however: can we be certain [it's] still there with the same meaning for the alien mind?

Maybe. Maybe not. It's an ass...

I was forced to paraphrase but I completely agree.
 

lpetrich

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I see now - you are starting from the assumption that meaningful communication is possible (as well as desired by all parties).

I would suggest that that's an awfully big assumption, on the same scale as assuming that an alien intelligence must reside in mobile, carbon-based individual organisms that share our perceptual and other biological biases and use words and other linguistic structures to communicate with each other.
benbenberi, what choice do we have? Seriously.

I was mainly thinking about communication over interstellar distances, and that requires controlling a radio-frequency electromagnetic signal. We visiting the ET's or the ET's visiting us would make the job a lot easier.

There are other modes of being, though, and other modes of perception that we can't share and may not understand. How does one start to communicate with a Really Clever Blobby Collective that uses chemical signals in the water to communicate?
Except that we've already cracked several communications codes used by organisms on our planet, both internally and externally.
  • DNA to RNA to proteins
  • Gene regulation
  • Signaling mechanisms in cells
  • Hormones (internal chemical signals) -- vertebrates, insects, plants
  • Pheromones (external chemical signals) -- social insects use this one a lot, and some plants also use them
  • Body language -- dogs, etc. Facial expressions and gestures are subsets.
  • Sounds -- usually rather simple. Dolphins' sounds are still mostly uncracked, however, though they may be competition for human language with all its complexity.

The notion that mathematics and science are universally valid and comprehensible as a basis for communication also has some pretty huge assumptions built into it. ... We're all the same organism, biologically speaking. We see, hear, and perceive a narrow range of environmental stimuli. Things like bilateral symmetry and handedness are so pervasive in our biome and our experience that we can't really control for them to recognize how they influence our thinking.
Maybe, but we've extended our senses with numerous devices.

All human counting starts with 1. Humans are hard-wired to recognize numbers: 1, 2, more-than-two. It seems to be biological. Some of our fellow-earth-creatures appear to share the ability, so it's probably rooted pretty deep in our evolutionary development. Take away the common biology, however: can we be certain the numbers are still there with the same meaning for the alien mind?
We've invented place systems several times, and it's doubtful that we are genetically programmed to use place systems. Furthermore, the most common ones, 10 and 20, are based on what appendages we have. This hasn't kept us from thinking of others, however.
 
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