Coverflip

Toothpaste said:

And further, if we want to play the cover game, "What MALE authors get feminine covers?"

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Quick answer #2: Nicholas Sparks

Papaya said:

I would also posit that perhaps white males aren't the best judge of what will sell to everyone, but only the best judge of what best sells to fellow white males. I am assuming, like most industries, the top jobs in the publishing industry are still held by a large majority of white males. Correct me if I am wrong, as it would be refreshing to find an industry where that isn't the case.

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All bar one of the editorial and other staff I've dealt with are female. In fact all the staff I've dealt with! No, wait, the artist was a guy too, but I had no interaction with him (other than saying OMG THAT COVER IS GREAT!! Ahem) There's a lot of women in publishing.

On the subject of male pen names: Honestly, Flibble, I'm tripping over the idea that the name "Francis" is masculine. It strikes me as the exact opposite. Possibly because the only "Francis" I know is a girl, but I admit I'm probably confusing it with an homonym that's spelled with an "e."

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Yeah Frances is the female version. I considered Frankie, but try googling that and you get a porn star...but I did meet one girl who spelt it Francis. I needed a pen name, it happens to be a family name and is neutralish* so we went with it.

*Because there are still some guys who think female name on cover = urk, girl cooties! Plus I'm writing from the male POV. Robin Hobb did similar, for similar reasons.

You know after I asked I thought of Mr Sparks. And I think that might have been the wrong question to ask after all. Because it makes the wrong point. The implication is that "See! Male authors get feminine covers therefore there is no cover issue!" But that's not quite it. Male authors will get female covers if they are writing for a female audience. Thus female cover still equals the other, not gender neutral.

Papaya said:

I would also posit that perhaps white males aren't the best judge of what will sell to everyone, but only the best judge of what best sells to fellow white males. I am assuming, like most industries, the top jobs in the publishing industry are still held by a large majority of white males. Correct me if I am wrong, as it would be refreshing to find an industry where that isn't the case.

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Mr Flibble said:

All bar one of the editorial and other staff I've dealt with are female. In fact all the staff I've dealt with! No, wait, the artist was a guy too, but I had no interaction with him (other than saying OMG THAT COVER IS GREAT!! Ahem) There's a lot of women in publishing.

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There are a lot of women who work in many industries, but few that make it into the top jobs. I never suggested there weren't a lot of women in publishing, but that there aren't a lot of women at the very top of the publishing industry. The positions you are describing aren't the top jobs. And those sitting at the top play a huge role in determining what is packaged and sold. At least that's the case in most industries.

Papaya said:

There are a lot of women who work in many industries, but few that make it into the top jobs. I never suggested there weren't a lot of women in publishing, but that there aren't a lot of women at the very top of the publishing industry. The positions you are describing aren't the top jobs. And those sitting at the top play a huge role in determining what is packaged and sold. At least that's the case in most industries.

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Because editorial director of a big six (five, whatever it is) imprint is not a top job? (Or her US equivalent, who deals with my US releases - executive editor, admittedly I've dealt with her peripherally as I'm UK and deal with the UK branch mostly, but the two people I've interacted with in the US? Women.) And ofc that role has zero to do with how a book is packaged? (I also know a couple of top ladies at other imprints)

Yes, there are women in top tier jobs at big imprints. Not all of them, I expect*. But several of the ones I work with and know.

*I know a couple of imprints that are mainly guys. One of those gave Anne her non girly cover, the other has some great covers for female authors.

The Patterson cover struck me as true crime, not chick lit.

This discussion is fascinating!

Mr Flibble said:

Because editorial director of a big six (five, whatever it is) imprint is not a top job? (Or her US equivalent, who deals with my US releases - executive editor) And/or has zero to do with how a book is packaged? (I also know a couple of top ladies at other imprints)

Yes, there are women in top tier jobs at big imprints. Not all of them, I expect*. But several of the ones I work with and know.

*I know a couple of imprints that are mainly guys. One of those gave Anne her non girly cover, the other has some great covers for female authors.

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I think you are missing the point. Those aren't the top jobs in the publishing industry that I am referring to.

Papaya said:

I think you are missing the point. Those aren't the top jobs in the publishing industry that I am referring to.

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Maybe you should be more specific then? To me, editorial director seems pretty top job tbh...I know she has a hell of a say in how the books are packaged/sold.*

Here's a real-life coverflip I found interesting. THE PREGNANCY PROJECT, by Gaby Rodriguez, is a teen memoir about a Latina girl who pretended to be pregnant for her senior project. Even though she was a straight-A student with bright prospects, people still said all sorts of hateful classist and racist things about her when they thought she was just another child of a single mother Latina teenage pregnancy statistic. (Fascinating read. I highly recommend.)

Anyway, the book originally came out looking like this:

PREGNANCY PROJECT original

Then about six months later, we got a "due out" order on all our copies, and shortly thereafter, a delivery of new hardcovers that looked like this:

THE PREGNANCY PROJECT re-do

The case is still the same black-on-blue, so my guess is that the publisher had new jackets printed. I'm not sure what the marketing decision was behind this one, or which one folks might consider to be more "feminine," since the old one actually shows a girl's body but is in more "male" colors, and the new one shows no girl but is in pastels. It doesn't seem to have done much for sales, but I haven't checked. It may also be trying to pick up on the John Green FAULT IN OUR STARS cover design...not sure what to make of this one at all, to be honest.

JSSchley said:

...not sure what to make of this one at all, to be honest.

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What to make of it is this: The book wasn't selling up to expectations, so they tried a different cover.

Which, again, is done all the darned time.

James D. Macdonald said:

What to make of it is this: The book wasn't selling up to expectations, so they tried a different cover.

Which, again, is done all the darned time.

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If you look you'll see that my point several posts above is about books looking like other books that the reader has enjoyed and why that makes perfect sense for the publisher to do (and that I use this method a lot myself when buying books).

Funny enough, I agree with you that it's done because it works.

Yet, I think it's not wrong to think about whether or not these things reflect wider issues relating to gender and marketing. You put a girl in a bikini on top of a car to sell the car. Yes, it sells the car. It's a good marketing decision. But it doesn't mean people shouldn't ask "Gee, why is it that a girl in a bikini causes a car to sell, and what does that say about the way we think about women?"

Mr Flibble said:

Maybe you should be more specific then? To me, editorial director seems pretty top job tbh...I know she has a hell of a say in how the books are packaged/sold.*

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I am no expert in these matters, but this is my understanding of how companies are generally structured: The people at the top are the chairman of the board, the CEO, the COO, the CIO, etc. The department heads are the positions you are referring to and are not the top positions in a company.

In most companies, the department heads still take a lot of direction from the people above them, and in some companies, the department heads just take orders and have absolutely no say in the product they are producing. I know this, because I have had the unfortunate experience of working for some of them.

I don't pretend to understand the nuances of how the publishing industry works, but if they are publically owned companies, they are most likely structured in a similar fashion. And from what I've seen, the bigger the company is, the more corporate it often is, whether it has gone public or not.

I don’t think it’s outrageous to suggest that even the editorial director is being told they must work within certain parameters. How extensive and strict those parameters are will vary depending on the company. I’ve worked for more than one company that went through a change of ownership, and it had a dramatic impact on everything, including the products we were producing.

Right, now I get you.

It's difficult to say how much each company works* (I'm not entirely sure for instance how much the CEO get involved) but while I suspect the CEO gives overall direction, I'm not sure they'd sign off every book cover -- that'd be a heck of a lot of books, and over the company as a whole, they'd do nothing else because they wouldn't have time!

I'm pretty sure for my covers, for instance, there was a group meeting, so while one person had the final say so (and I doubt it was the CEO tbh, at least not in that meeting, he may have okayed what they came up with) it was a group think tank effort. And also, are we talking person in charge of the imprint, or what? The imprint is part of X books, who are owned by X group...there has to be some autonomy down the line, or some poor bugger is going to be snowed with work.

*For instance, the company I work for, my manager is fairly autonomous within certain parameters (mainly that we stick to various health and safety and employment laws etc). Her manager oversees her, and others, mainly keeps an eye on performance, new practices etc and only gets involved if performance dips, or there's an actual problem, and that's been the same in most companies I've work for.

So I was kinda coming at it from that direction -- yes the CEO may, ultimately, have the yes or no. He's unlikely to be coming up with cover ideas himself, and may only get involved in a loose sort of way as long as performance is good. Then again s/he may get right in the thick of it. That said, I'm still think editorial director is still a pretty big job -- they have the say so on what books get picked up etc (again the CEO may give direction, but I doubt they are involved in every book that gets contracted)

So what if women are in the top jobs in publishing? Women live in the same culture, internalise the same sexism, make the same assumptions.

In my experience of sitting in on meetings in publishing houses in the UK, the people Flibble is talking about are exactly the ones who are making the decisions about what cover to put on a book. And in trade publishing at least, a heck of a lot of those people are women. Though I have no doubt that higher ups can veto covers or step in when performance isn't up to par, as with any business.

Merely anecdotal of course.

Buffysquirrel said:

So what if women are in the top jobs in publishing? Women live in the same culture, internalise the same sexism, make the same assumptions.

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Wow, that seems very...dismissive.

The women I'm talking about put out some great covers for female authors -- as great as the men's covers. Is it like that in all publishing? No. Have some women internalised sexism? Prolly. Have there been huge strides in some genres in covers? (see above how romance and SFF have changed for instance) Yes. Has that been since many more women entered the industry...also yes. Is there still a way to go - yes.


It's a bit of a sweeping statement up there...especially since not every woman's view of sexism is the same. Just because they don't jibe with your or my view, doesn't (automatically) mean they've internalised sexism.

Mr Flibble said:

Yeah Frances is the female version. I considered Frankie, but try googling that and you get a porn star...but I did meet one girl who spelt it Francis. I needed a pen name, it happens to be a family name and is neutralish* so we went with it.

*Because there are still some guys who think female name on cover = urk, girl cooties! Plus I'm writing from the male POV. Robin Hobb did similar, for similar reasons.

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After reading this thread, I'm rather glad that I have a name that can be either gender. I have had people assume I was a man until they met me, because many women spell it as Lesley. Since I write fantasy and have no desire to have my covers done in pink and flowers, I hope it will work to my advantage.

LeslieB said:

Since I write fantasy and have no desire to have my covers done in pink and flowers, I hope it will work to my advantage.

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You shouldn't worry about it. Your book wouldn't have a pink-and-flowers cover even if your name was Mary Jane. The claim that female name = "female" cover is so far from unproven that it can be dismissed out of hand.

I often wonder if Diane Duane would have ended up with this cover for Stealing the Elf-King's Roses if she'd been a guy. Mind you, it was a cover from 2002... but still.

The book itself is more paranormal detective SF (multi-universe w/ alien elves) than a fantasy. But you wouldn't know that from the cover.

The Author's Cut cover (that I believe DD chose herself) is much more representative of the contents of the novel.

(It's a good novel.)

amergina said:

I often wonder if Diane Duane would have ended up with this cover for Stealing the Elf-King's Roses if she'd been a guy. Mind you, it was a cover from 2002... but still.

The book itself is more paranormal detective SF (multi-universe w/ alien elves) than a fantasy. But you wouldn't know that from the cover.

The Author's Cut cover (that I believe DD chose herself) is much more representative of the contents of the novel.

(It's a good novel.)

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*blinks*
T-the pink... it BURNS. I mean, that's something that would be on a fantasy romance cover, not a detective story!

I'm sorry, I just. *cries into her pillow*