[Publisher] Black Rose Writing (Reagan Rothe)

I was interested in: would the book be "out there" and available as soon as possible through various channels like amazon, b&n, itunes, sony, kobo, smashwords, etc., would I have a quality product to distribute, would I have creative control, would the book rights revert back to me, would my time with the publisher (in terms of interviews, guest blogs, reviews (over 100), indie awards, google-i-ness, etc.) give it the exposure and me the knowledge to improve the work and better position it in its next incarnation?

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All of which are possible through doing it yourself via Kindle, Smashwords, PubIt! and for print books using Createspace.

(Or selling the print rights to a real publisher for a real advance.)

You have a better royalty structure for DIY. I put a reprint up on all of them and get 25% from the print book and 65-70-80% from the ebook versions, depending on the host seller.

You'd retain full rights, and not have to rely on a middleman or be bound to a contract.

They may have been a good fit for you, but many of the writers coming here for info are looking for a proper publisher, not a POD operation that patterned itself after PublishAmerica.

In professional *commercial* publishing the sale of 1000 copies is considered a dismal failure.

For BR, that's a freaking miracle. You must have done an exceptional amount of promoting.

One of their other writers had (for them) decent sales, but it was clear he was being under-published with them and could do much better for himself with a regular publisher. It was much like shifting from a garage sale and moving up to a retail store at a mall.

Hopefully you can do likewise!

Spin the Plate:
I estimate about 1000 people, so far, have read some version of the story.

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Can I ask how you reached that figure? Did it come from your royalty statements or other information provided by Black Rose or is it based on personal knowledge of who's checking it out?

MM

Gillhoughly said:

... a dismal failure.

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Ha ha, don't hold back, please tell me what to you really think!

Before I decided to go with BRW, I looked at the amazon sales ranks of their best selling books (figuring I could do about the same), so had a realistic idea of sales figures for my time with this publisher.

I'm not measuring success or failure in monetary terms or by traditional publisher standards. If this story impacts the lives of even a modest number of people, that's success. Plus, I'm in it for the long haul; I've only just began to see this work through to reaching its full potential.

I feel prepared now to go the self publish/DIY route, partly because Reagan Rothe consistently gave me a "go for it" response to any ideas for book promotion. I doubt a traditional publisher would have given me freedom to learn and use all the DIY tools in creative ways. For example, I released a free short story version of the novel as it was originally written and pointed the reader to the full-novel at the end. For me the past two years provided a nice mix of learning how to self-publish while at the same time having an affiliation with a publisher. Being published gave me credibility when asking for reviews, going on virtual book blogger tours, or doing giveaways. Plus, it allowed me to enter indie book award contests (it was a winner or finalist of five awards).

The one DIY piece I still need to figure out is how to get paperbacks printed and sold on amazon/b&n. I'm not sure if CreateSpace does that piece as well. So far I've figured out just the e-book side.

Spin the Plate said:

Before I decided to go with BRW, I looked at the amazon sales ranks of their best selling books (figuring I could do about the same), so had a realistic idea of sales figures for my time with this publisher.

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Amazon's sales rankings don't give you any real indication of the actual numbers of books which have sold.

I'm not measuring success or failure in monetary terms or by traditional publisher standards. If this story impacts the lives of even a modest number of people, that's success. Plus, I'm in it for the long haul; I've only just began to see this work through to reaching its full potential.

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How do you measure success, then? And how has your book reached its full potential as a direct result of your working with this publisher?

Being published gave me credibility when asking for reviews, going on virtual book blogger tours, or doing giveaways. Plus, it allowed me to enter indie book award contests (it was a winner or finalist of five awards).

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But I thought the "indie book awards" were for books which had been self-published? Yours wasn't. Perhaps I'm confused.

Spin the Plate said:

I was interested in: would the book be "out there" and available as soon as possible through various channels like amazon, b&n, itunes, sony, kobo, smashwords, etc.,

would I have a quality product to distribute,

would I have creative control, would the book rights revert back to me, would my time with the publisher (in terms of interviews, guest blogs, reviews (over 100), indie awards, google-i-ness, etc.) give it the exposure and me the knowledge to improve the work and better position it in its next incarnation?

Then again, I don't write for a living. My motivation is to educate and inspire, and the financial side isn't a huge consideration. For me this novel represents more of an only child than a pay check.

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what "next incarnation"? You intend to re-sell the same book on your own now?

What unique exposure did you get our of black rose, since you mentioned it?

How was it faster to market than self-pubbing, if that was your main issue?


I'm glad you're satisfied, but in a couple posts you mentioned some variation of "but I"m not interested in traditional publishing definitions of success".....what are YOU interested in, then, because that might be useful. I get "creative control" and "speed" above, but that you could have gotten self-pubbing then. Any sort of market reach I believe most other companies can compete with BR on just fine. You seem somewhat uninterested in sales figures. So what was the unique attribute(s) of BR that really did it for you?

Gillhoughly said:

In legacy publishing the sale of 1000 copies is considered a dismal failure.

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"Legacy publishing" is an ideological term, not a descriptive one. It has come into use thanks to the self-publishing evangelists and publishing industry gravediggers who use it to express their contempt for a system they've rejected.

Per Wikipedia, "A legacy system is an old method, technology, computer system, or application program that continues to be used, typically because it still functions for the users' needs, even though newer technology or more efficient methods of performing a task are now available."

Self-publishing is an alternative system--and a far more viable one than it was even two or three years ago--but whether it is "more efficient" for all forms and definitions of publishing, not to mention all authors, is not even close to proven at this point. Traditional publishing as we know it today may indeed at some point become a legacy system--the operative word being "may"--but we're not there yet, and it kills me to see people picking up this pejorative term and using it as a descriptor.

- Victoria

Spin the Plate:
I'm not measuring success or failure in monetary terms or by traditional publisher standards. If this story impacts the lives of even a modest number of people, that's success. Plus, I'm in it for the long haul; I've only just began to see this work through to reaching its full potential.

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And that's great and a perfectly reasonable aim. There are a lot of people out there who only want to sell a handful of copies, but you can equally do that without giving your rights to Black Rose.

However, the fact that you looked up the Amazon rankings of Black Rose's bestsellers before hand suggests you were interested in some kind of sales and you still haven't answered where you got your estimate of 1000 views/sales to date.

Spin the Plate:
I feel prepared now to go the self publish/DIY route, partly because Reagan Rothe consistently gave me a "go for it" response to any ideas for book promotion. I doubt a traditional publisher would have given me freedom to learn and use all the DIY tools in creative ways.

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Reagan Rothe would have told you to "got for it" on promotion because she wasn't going to do much for you (if any).

A commercial publisher won't just love hearing any ideas you've got for promoting your book, they'll also help you with printing up material, banners, book support, etc etc. My friend's published by Egmont in the UK and she mentioned that she was going to be attending a UK convention next month - her publisher immediately got in touch with the convention organisers to supply a number of books for a signing and sent her 100 book marks and postcards so she can take them to the event. She isn't even a speaker or a panellist. And in addition to this, commercial publishers will pay you an advance so whatever sales you do increases your chance of earning out while also increasing overall sales.

Spin the Plate:
For me the past two years provided a nice mix of learning how to self-publish while at the same time having an affiliation with a publisher. Being published gave me credibility when asking for reviews, going on virtual book blogger tours, or doing giveaways. Plus, it allowed me to enter indie book award contests (it was a winner or finalist of five awards).

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Interesting that you see Black Rose as having given you credibilty as a writer.

Just because you've done a lot of work doesn't mean you've self-published. The rights will still have belonged to Black Rose (whether or not they've now reverted to you) and there's more to self-publishing than promotion. Check out Amanda Hocking's interviews as she gives a very honest account of what self-publishing really entails.

MM

Spin the Plate said:

The one DIY piece I still need to figure out is how to get paperbacks printed and sold on amazon/b&n. I'm not sure if CreateSpace does that piece as well. So far I've figured out just the e-book side.

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AW has a section for self-publishing. You should be able to find plenty of resources there.

And welcome to AW!

I stand corrected on the use of the term legacy publishing--I read too much J.A. Konrath! Let's call them commercial publishers instead.

I'll also agree that Amazon rankings are worthless for information on book sales. You need to use the Nielsen Bookscan program for actual sales numbers.

However I *think* it only scans books that are sold through stores and BR won't have enough of a store presence to be useful there either.

They're well meaning, polite and supportive, but underpowered, the equivalent of saying "my mother and my writing group really loved my book!"

I doubt that the editing has improved much, either. It's a one-man operation and Mr. Rothe started the business with apparently NO experience in publishing beyond the fact he was foolish enough to sign on with PublishAmerica.

If your book as good as you say, then you can do better elsewhere.

Createspace has a lot of different sized books, the smallest being 5x8 inches, which is larger than the "mass market paperback" you like.

But don't get focused on sizing options, look at the per copy price. The paperbacks you see on the racks are sized that way because they cost less to print in large numbers. They use the fast offset printers (or used to) and those make for cheap printing. I doubt you'll want to spend thousands to get that done, because you won't have the kind of distribution a commercial publisher has. Places like Harlequin and Random House have to have warehouses and trucks to get those books out and into stores.

Createspace is a Print On Demand option, like Lulu, and they print a copy when an order comes in. The per copy price is going to be higher. This is what BR does, using a (I think) Lightning Source.

My 6x9 trade with CS is 14.00, but it would probably be 16.00 in stores. However, I earn 25% on that. In a store it would probebly earn about 8% of half the cover price, if it sold in stores. I may sell fewer copies, but I get paid more for them.

I didn't opt for a commercial house, because the book is a reprint and they don't like those. Worse, it's a collection of stories and those generally don't sell well. It sells well enough for me, though, at least on Kindle.

But the fact remains that most writers serious about a career in publishing should skip garage sale operations like BR.

I'll second what Gilloughly just said. This is an inexperienced micro with a questionable contract and footprint in the industry.

Thank you Julie B for pointing me to the self-publishing and POD area and Gillhoughy for the how-to information on printing paperbacks through CreateSpace. Good stuff.

When I see a headline like "Local Teen Publishes Novel," I know that it will nearly always be a vanity press or a questionable publisher. Such as this.

- Victoria

I had to laugh when I read this part of the interview. I may be wrong, but it feels as if she was instructed to add these words to add validity to the publication of her book:

I received 17 rejection letters, but I didn't let them bother me. I was really excited when Black Rose Writing (a publisher in Texas) asked to see my manuscript and later sent me a contract. They covered all the costs and published my book in January.

Black Rose Writing update

I appreciate your input and work for authors and the reading/publishing industry. I wanted to let you know that Black Rose Writing has completely removed any author order concept. Our future authors will not be recommended or required to ever purchase books.

We will continue to do a great deal of promotion as well for our future authors, something we have been doing for years. We will be with some of our authors at the Book Expo America, please stop by if you are attending. The future is bright.

Thank you for your time and support of authors.

Reagan, I didn't see Black Rose in the exibitor's list

http://bea13.mapyourshow.com/5_0/ex...fb16bbb6a-D1F6CAD7-9D27-2759-922755C3AEAE4F20

What booth will you guys be at? Which authors are signing? Thanks

blackrosewriting said:

I appreciate your input and work for authors and the reading/publishing industry. I wanted to let you know that Black Rose Writing has completely removed any author order concept. Our future authors will not be recommended or required to ever purchase books.

We will continue to do a great deal of promotion as well for our future authors, something we have been doing for years. We will be with some of our authors at the Book Expo America, please stop by if you are attending. The future is bright.

Thank you for your time and support of authors.

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Can anyone confirm they have dropped the book buying requirement?

I don't know if they have, twm. But I'd still not submit to them.

Black Rose

twm said:

Can anyone confirm they have dropped the book buying requirement?

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I can confirm that BRW dropped that requirement. I had their contract reviewed by an intellectual property attorney before signing. The attorney had no concerns and the contract is for only two years. I am very pleased with BRW and my first book will be released tomorrow. It will be available on the various Amazon sites (.com, .uk, .ca, etc.) in both print and digital forms. The book will also be available (online ordering) at most of the big brick and mortar stores.
Granted, the onus is on me to publicise and market my book, to organize book signings (should I actually want to) and events but then it seems that it is always up to the author to do that (excepting the successful, established writers of course).
All in all, I got exactly what I wanted out of BRW: I'm published by a bona fide publishing house (albeit small) and that gets me the creds that self-publishing can't. In Canada, I can now join the writers' union, apply for grants, place my book in public libraries and so on.

Iskandar said:

I can confirm that BRW dropped that requirement. I had their contract reviewed by an intellectual property attorney before signing. The attorney had no concerns and the contract is for only two years. I am very pleased with BRW and my first book will be released tomorrow. It will be available on the various Amazon sites (.com, .uk, .ca, etc.) in both print and digital forms. The book will also be available (online ordering) at most of the big brick and mortar stores.

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Being available to special order is not going to result in many sales. Being stocked on the shelves at physical bookshops will, which is why it's important for publishers to have full distribution.

This one doesn't.

Granted, the onus is on me to publicise and market my book, to organize book signings (should I actually want to) and events but then it seems that it is always up to the author to do that (excepting the successful, established writers of course).

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It's not always up to the writer to do such things, and if you think it is then you've been misinformed. Several of my friends have had their debut novels published this year and their publishers have arranged all sorts of events and promotions for them.

All in all, I got exactly what I wanted out of BRW: I'm published by a bona fide publishing house (albeit small) and that gets me the creds that self-publishing can't. In Canada, I can now join the writers' union, apply for grants, place my book in public libraries and so on.

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Libraries won't usually buy books that writers ask them to: they usually only buy because the books get reviewed in appropriate trade publications, or because the books become wildly popular by other means.

How many books from this publisher does your local library carry?

Old Hack said:

How many books from this publisher does your local library carry?

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BAZINGA!

BRW is not worth much, if anything in "street cred" with regular commercial publishers. They pay attention to books whose publishers liked so much that they cut the writer a check. They may not even see BRW as a professional credit at all. Career-minded writers don't waste time on the small fry houses with a dearth of publishing experience who use a notorious author mill as a business model.

BRW is not as horrible as PublishAmerica in the same way a rutting billy goat's smell isn't as horrible as that of a skunk. But, hey, they do both stink!

As stated, being "available to" a store is not the same as shelved and stocked. How many small press / self-pub books by debut writers do you order each week through a bookstore?

We had one writer here who did fairly well with BRW, so much so that he realized that he could absolutely do BETTER.

And he did.

As I'm the greenest of rookies in this business, I'll take your comments as a given and thank you for them.

Gillhoughly said:

BRW is not worth much, if anything in "street cred" with regular commercial publishers.

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The credits I'm alluding to are not with other publishers but rather, as I noted, with the writers' union (re: membership requirements), the numerous grants and initiatives sponsored by Federal and Provincial art councils and various private funds, all of whom do not recognize self-publishing or POD.

As for my local public libraries, I wouldn't dream of selling them any copies but I hope they'll accept a few copies as a donation; just a way to give back after borrowing for so many years.

Iskandar said:

The credits I'm alluding to are not with other publishers but rather, as I noted, with the writers' union (re: membership requirements), the numerous grants and initiatives sponsored by Federal and Provincial art councils and various private funds, all of whom do not recognize self-publishing or POD.

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You might want to check with the government and those unions if they recognize your publisher as exactly that.

For example, SFWA has a list of publishers and requirements for those wishing to apply for membership.

As far as applying for grants, etc. - as one Canadian to another - don't count on getting money there. The number of applicants is high and the money constantly shrinking - and if your publisher is found to be "wanting" they won't consider your application.

I'd suggest doing your research before you start applying for these funds and planning for the future as if you were NOT going to get them. It's been a hard road for years to get funding for the arts and I wouldn't count on it as a dependable source of income.

In other words - don't quit your day job.

Sheryl Nantus said:

In other words - don't quit your day job.

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I hear you loud and clear. After 35 years in my profession and this close to retirement, I have no intention of quitting my day job. I hope that writing will keep me active after I retire and I fully realize that the various research grants will be hotly contested. But at least, as I understand the basic requirements, having published with a recognized publisher, I will be eligible to compete.

It depends on how one defines "recognized" in regard to a publisher.

They didn't pay you an advance against royalties.

Their books are not in stores unless the author goes in and persuades the managers to carry a few copies. That is not proper distribution as defined by a true commercial house.

I'm unsure whether or not they're Print On Demand, as that's a tech that many legit small presses employ. They might do small print runs of less than 100 copies, but I doubt it. Print books are expensive and require storage space. A small press, even a legit one, has heavy overhead costs and can't afford to have unsold books lying around.


About all you can say is that you didn't pay them to publish your work. If anyone bothers to Google search their name, they'll find the BRW website, but this forum thread as well.

You might check your local library first on what they do with author supplied donated copies. Yours might be delighted to have some, but others either toss them into the recycle bin or send them to be sold at the library's "store" if they have one. At least make certain the fate of donated books before you order copies (in case you don't get author copies for free, as publishers usually do that).

Iskandar said:

The credits I'm alluding to are not with other publishers but rather, as I noted, with the writers' union (re: membership requirements), the numerous grants and initiatives sponsored by Federal and Provincial art councils and various private funds, all of whom do not recognize self-publishing or POD.

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I'm pretty sure that this publisher is POD.

I'm also pretty sure that this publisher won't count as a "credit" with the places you're assuming it will.

As for my local public libraries, I wouldn't dream of selling them any copies but I hope they'll accept a few copies as a donation; just a way to give back after borrowing for so many years.

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Such donations are not usually placed on the shelves: they're usually discarded, or sold.

Iskandar said:

I hear you loud and clear. After 35 years in my profession and this close to retirement, I have no intention of quitting my day job. I hope that writing will keep me active after I retire and I fully realize that the various research grants will be hotly contested.

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I find writing for a living much more exacting than having a day-job, and certainly not something to "keep me active" in retirement.

But at least, as I understand the basic requirements, having published with a recognized publisher, I will be eligible to compete.

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I don't think this publisher qualifies as a "recognised publisher", though.