Use of pejoratives in Historical Fiction

OnlyStones · May 4, 2013

How acceptable is it?

I want to keep the dialogue as realistic as I can which, I think, would include certain racial terms that are very frowned upon this days.

I certainly don't plan to use them in a flagrant fashion, but, back in the day, they were commonly used terms.

Kerosene · May 4, 2013

It's completely acceptable, as you're relating to the past where it was acceptable back then. It's not you who's making those comments, but the characters.

buz · May 4, 2013

Have you seen Django Unchained...?

blacbird · May 4, 2013

buzhidao said:
Have you seen Django Unchained...?

Or Lincoln?

caw

Nekko · May 4, 2013

Just make sure they fit your character. Contrast it with others in your story who don't use the term(s), or use them more sparingly, so we see that it is part of your character's personality make-up

rwm4768 · May 4, 2013

It wouldn't be true to the story if you didn't make the dialogue close to the way people actually would have spoken. I think readers can handle racial pejoratives. I thought it was ridiculous when I heard about the sanitized versions of Huck Finn. People used the "n-word" back then.

lolchemist · May 4, 2013

You can even use those words for a story happening in 2013 *IF* it's realistic for the character. Of course no matter how appropriately, carefully, respectfully, gracefully, sensitively, whateverly you put those words in the mouths of your characters there will always be at least one reader who will go "OMFG THIS WRITER IS RACIST AND THIS BOOK NEEDS TO BE BURNED!!!" that's just how it is. I'm already building myself a thick-skin made of steel for when one of my characters uses the n-word.

quicklime · May 4, 2013

or Glory?

Roots?

Sunflowerrei · May 4, 2013

You have to use what we would consider pejoratives in historical fiction, for any sense of realism. Not just racial pejoratives, but ethnic ones and religious ones and sexual orientation...maybe not all the characters use them, but they're simply the way others were referred to by the other people in olden times.

u.v.ray · May 4, 2013

... Or Quentin Tarantino.

Even these days, just because terms are frowned upon, doesn't mean people don't use them. You hear it every day.

Sonsofthepharaohs · May 5, 2013

Yeah, all of the above

You've now got me thinking that I don't have enough pejorative terms in my MS...I'm writing about post-Exodus ancient Egypt, and my antag is a raving anti-semite. Problem is, I don't really have any insulting way to refer to the Hebrews other than adding an adjective, like calling them dirty etc. Wondering if maybe there's something in the bible that might be of use... anyone know? (Reading the bible tends to be problematic for me because, being the spawn of satan, touching it makes my skin melt...

)

lolchemist · May 5, 2013

Whatever the words would be, they wouldn't be in English anyways so I wouldn't worry too much about it. You could always use 'slave' as a pejorative though, if you don't already.

Clubmonstar · May 5, 2013

I agree with what everyone else has said... however... I would also hope and expect that the character that does use that kind of language, and has the type of character to go along with it, to have some kind of comeuppance.

Even these days, on some TV shows (eg. Family Guy), racist comments are thrown about here and there. I guess it just reflects society though, eh?

Sonsofthepharaohs · May 5, 2013

lolchemist said:
Whatever the words would be, they wouldn't be in English anyways so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

well, I'm not trying to find ancient Egyptian pejorative terms, obviously! I meant modern English ones

lolchemist said:
You could always use 'slave' as a pejorative though, if you don't already.

You might be onto something there... seeing as all the Hebrews remaining in Egypt after exodus were freed, calling them slaves still would be considered an insult.

thanks!

And sorry for hijacking the thread, but as you can see by my example, yes, you can use pejorative terms in HF

Sonsofthepharaohs · May 5, 2013

Clubmonstar said:
I agree with what everyone else has said... however... I would also hope and expect that the character that does use that kind of language, and has the type of character to go along with it, to have some kind of comeuppance.

Ah yes, we want to be socially and morally responsible authors, don't we?

I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's not the novelist's job to ensure all wrongdoers get their just deserts so that we can peddle a moral message. I'm not going to give my maniacal anti-semite a sticky end just so I can say 'racism is bad, mmkay?'

In real life, sometimes the bad guys DO get away with it.

This debate has been held many times on these boards though.

gothicangel · May 5, 2013

Kallithrix said:
I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's not the novelist's job to ensure all wrongdoers get their just deserts so that we can peddle a moral message. I'm not going to give my maniacal anti-semite a sticky end just so I can say 'racism is bad, mmkay?'

I agree. And in historical fiction - as we both deal with Antiquity - morality in the 21st century is very different to 1500 BCE, and become anchronistic. Calling someone an effete has different meaning and reactions. I remember giving someone advice about a novel set in Ptolemic Egypt using the term 'black.' Personally, I advised against it as the Romans didn't see colour the same way and recommended 'barbarian' as more authentic. I would think a Roman would see negro as 'skin like highly polished bronze.'

To the OP, I would warn against thinking of past peoples 'are just like us.' No they are not, they can have very different ideas about gender, age, ethnicity, religion, and status. For example, the high status individual from the Copper Age is not the guy with the most bling, but the labourer who is skilled in copper smelting.

Susan Lanigan · May 5, 2013

It's very hard to avoid in historical fiction, I find. I have to admit I find it difficult and often find myself "cleaning up". But yes, casual racism abounds once you go more than seventy years back, and also terms that I think some would now call "ableist".

There is also more baggage to a white writer using very racist language than other races doing the same, because of the history of empire and colonialism etc. That's probably why Django Unchained caused a big fuss, because Tarantino was writing and directing it, rather than the proliferation of the n word all by itself.

Sonsofthepharaohs · May 5, 2013

gothicangel said:
I agree. And in historical fiction - as we both deal with Antiquity - morality in the 21st century is very different to 1500 BCE, and become anchronistic. Calling someone an effete has different meaning and reactions. I remember giving someone advice about a novel set in Ptolemic Egypt using the term 'black.' Personally, I advised against it as the Romans didn't see colour the same way and recommended 'barbarian' as more authentic. I would think a Roman would see negro as 'skin like highly polished bronze.'

One o these days you and me iz gonna have to go find a room to have a big chat about HF and wotnot...

p.s. Barbarian is a Greek word to describe those who didn't speak Greek, and therefore sounded like they were going 'barbarbar' like a sheep. Nothing to do with colour :tongue

DeleyanLee · May 5, 2013

One of my favorite historical fiction series was a Mystery one written by Barbara Hambly featuring Benjamin January. He was a freed slave in New Orleans in the 1860's (if I recall the decade correctly). He was very dark skinned and was the investigating character. Needless to say, he in constantly running into bigotry, words, the occasional whipping and lynching, and has the danger of being re-enslaved hanging over him if he missteps.

Yes, perjoratives are used, but they're used as a reflection of a character's character. There are some people who just go with the flow of the society and use such words liberally. There are those who buck the society and not use them. There are those who will use the language, depending on who's present. Pretty much just like real life.

Since that's the best use of such language I've read, it's what I attempt to do when I'm writing.

angeliz2k · May 5, 2013

Honestly, OnlyStones, depending on the time and place, it would be more problematic in my mind to NOT use slurs. I find it irresponsible to ignore the bigotry of the past. I'm writing about the Antebellum South. Soo much racism! But that ought to be reflected in what I write. I wrote from the perspective of a nice young lady and a Quaker, so there aren't many racial slurs, but it's not for squeamishness.

OnlyStones · May 5, 2013

Nekko said:
Just make sure they fit your character. Contrast it with others in your story who don't use the term(s), or use them more sparingly, so we see that it is part of your character's personality make-up

rwm4768 said:
It wouldn't be true to the story if you didn't make the dialogue close to the way people actually would have spoken. I think readers can handle racial pejoratives. I thought it was ridiculous when I heard about the sanitized versions of Huck Finn. People used the "n-word" back then.

Sunflowerrei said:
You have to use what we would consider pejoratives in historical fiction, for any sense of realism. Not just racial pejoratives, but ethnic ones and religious ones and sexual orientation...maybe not all the characters use them, but they're simply the way others were referred to by the other people in olden times.

Susan Lanigan said:
It's very hard to avoid in historical fiction, I find. I have to admit I find it difficult and often find myself "cleaning up". But yes, casual racism abounds once you go more than seventy years back, and also terms that I think some would now call "ableist".

There is also more baggage to a white writer using very racist language than other races doing the same, because of the history of empire and colonialism etc. That's probably why Django Unchained caused a big fuss, because Tarantino was writing and directing it, rather than the proliferation of the n word all by itself.

angeliz2k said:
Honestly, OnlyStones, depending on the time and place, it would be more problematic in my mind to NOT use slurs. I find it irresponsible to ignore the bigotry of the past. I'm writing about the Antebellum South. Soo much racism! But that ought to be reflected in what I write. I wrote from the perspective of a nice young lady and a Quaker, so there aren't many racial slurs, but it's not for squeamishness.

Thanks all. this is all pretty much what I thought. I had a reviewer get a bit squeamish over one scene, so I thought I'd ask you all to knock it around a bit. Great stuff! Thank you.

Susan Coffin · May 6, 2013

If you write in a certain era with certain themes, it's important to use the language that that they used during that time. Make sure that the pejoratives you use fit what is happening in that scene.

little_e · May 11, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Yeah, all of the above

You've now got me thinking that I don't have enough pejorative terms in my MS...I'm writing about post-Exodus ancient Egypt, and my antag is a raving anti-semite. Problem is, I don't really have any insulting way to refer to the Hebrews other than adding an adjective, like calling them dirty etc. Wondering if maybe there's something in the bible that might be of use... anyone know? (Reading the bible tends to be problematic for me because, being the spawn of satan, touching it makes my skin melt... )

For obvious reasons, 'pigs' or 'swine' seem reasonable. If there are animals which were disliked in Egypt, those would be reasonable. Also any term for outsiders, or one you made up.
The modern offensive slang words for Jews seem like they might jump out too much at the readers as 'anachronistic', even though obviously your characters didn't speak English to start with.

little_e · May 11, 2013

Personally, just me, but I'd avoid any (modern) slurs unless they're plot-relevant. Like, if we're talking pre-Civil War American South, it'd be kind of amazing not to hear any slurs. But if we're talking 1200s Japan, there's no need for them. Remember that people of the slurred group could end up reading your book, and might just prefer to read something which doesn't make them feel uncomfortable. It all depends on what sort of story you're writing, really.

Use of pejoratives in Historical Fiction

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