Shady's Edgy YA (or sex, swearing, drinking, drugs, and violence in YA)
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I think it makes sense, especially if your characters don't show themselves as people who would let out a swear word every time they face a problem.
Oh on a related note. So boys don't read? I thought a boys adventure written for a YA audience would be an interesting change of pace from a lot of covers I see in the book store.
In a way, A Clockwork Orange was almost one of the first YA books. (Well, its what I read at seventeen anyway.)
In a way, A Clockwork Orange was almost one of the first YA books. (Well, its what I read at seventeen anyway.)
Question. Say there is a somewhat graphic sex scene that ultimately ends in unprotected sex. Would you say the unprotected sex matters to the YA market?
Becca C.
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How important is the "unprotected" aspect? Does it end in a character becoming pregnant (or fearing that she is), contracting an STD, or does it lead to awkwardness between the characters over the fear of either of those? Is it a plot point, is my question, basically. Because if you made a big deal of it being unprotected, from a story standpoint, I'm going to assume it's important and I'll remember it for later. I'll expect payoff in the form of consequences.
If all that's important is that the characters had sex, and nothing really comes from it being unprotected, why don't you just either make them protected (briefly mention a condom or the girl being on the pill, etc) or just not mention it and we'll assume it's protected?
If you're asking whether it's controversial that characters had unprotected sex... meh? Unless you're going to make there be consequences that have an impact on the story, I just wouldn't mention it at all. As long as you aren't actively advocating unprotected sex, you don't really have a responsibility to educate your audience.
During the sex scene there is an awkward conversation about the use of a condom. Ultimately, no condom is used. There are no consequences because one of the characters isn't "human", but the human in the scene is concerned.
That scene got mixed reviews which is why I ask. The teens who read it saw no problem, but the adults were on the fence. Oddly enough, when I took the mention of condoms out totally, adults and teens alike thought it was better with it even though nothing was used.
My personal opinion is that, as much as everyone knows they should, a condom isn't always used. And I agree that it's not my job to teach safe sex, but the mixed reviews got me wondering.
I've read a bunch of blog posts about whether a YA author has a responsibility to mention safe sex or not. Ultimately, I don't think an author needs to do anything.
I would guess, and this is just an off-the-cuff remark, that the awkward conversation might make the adult readers feel uncomfortable. Also, I think taking the conversation out leaves the reader to add his/her own details, which may or may not include protection.
Personally, I think you're right in that a condom isn't always used and having the characters talk about it adds depth to the scene. I'd leave it in, but only if there's a reason for it. I agree with Becca that if you make a point of talking about the unprotected sex, I would expect consequences. Not that there needs to be a pregnancy or STD or anything, but I would guess that the MC would at least think about it after the fact.
I would guess, and this is just an off-the-cuff remark, that the awkward conversation might make the adult readers feel uncomfortable. Also, I think taking the conversation out leaves the reader to add his/her own details, which may or may not include protection.
Personally, I think you're right in that a condom isn't always used and having the characters talk about it adds depth to the scene. I'd leave it in, but only if there's a reason for it. I agree with Becca that if you make a point of talking about the unprotected sex, I would expect consequences. Not that there needs to be a pregnancy or STD or anything, but I would guess that the MC would at least think about it after the fact.
I'm okay with using profanity in my writing, and it seems like a lot of readers are comfortable with it too. But what about sexist or gendered insults? I have one female character call another one "skank ho", and I was wondering if I should change it to something different since sexist insults seem more offensive than just swearing (even if it is the way a lot of teenagers talk). Should I change it to something like "fuckwad" or "pathetic shitstain"?
I think thats a more accurate way for me to put it, I want more genre books that have more plot layers that detail the characters life outside of the plot.
Just adding this small bit of side plot can do a deal to make it more dark, gritty, or edgy. But many of them just want you to "pare down".
Just adding this small bit of side plot can do a deal to make it more dark, gritty, or edgy. But many of them just want you to "pare down".
Those sorts of insults say more about the person delivering them than the one receiving. If that's what you're going for, I'd say use them, but sparingly.
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If you're capable of formulating the insult in your mind, it's okay for your manuscript.
This may seem like an odd question, I wonder if there will be a need for a Shady NA thread, like there is for YA? It really does seem like some news articles want to prolong the teen years as long as they can. *goes back to reading the news.
I am a teen who writes for teens. I am writing a YA and so far it has ALOT of swearing. (It has a few different POV's so everyone will not be like this) . I don't cuss at all in my real life, but around me in high school, colleges and parties with other kids my age EVERYONE cusses and drinks/does drugs and that is looked at as 'cool' in today's society. I wanted to capture that REAL teen life in my MS. would agents be ok with this
I don't know how an agent would feel, but here is my contradictory and convoluted response:
First, I personally don't like to see a lot of sex, drugs, drinking and swearing in any novel, let alone a YA. I am a 38 year-old mother of 5, so obviously removed from the teen scene, but crudity in writing for the sake of being crude just rubs me the wrong way. Having said that, I love authenticity. There's nothing more aggravating than reading a a scene and thinking, "Yeah, whatever. That wouldn't have happened that way in real life." But reading is not real life. It's the author's vision of A LIFE (or lives). So, my personal answer is, putting those things in a book is fine, writing real life is great, editing to make the content palatable to your readers is a good idea, but in the end your book has to be a reflection of your vision for that piece of work. If an agent or publisher has a problem with it but likes your work otherwise, they'll tell you. If changing your MS that much to please another person doesn't sit well, then you need to stick to your guns and find an agent who likes it the way it is. If getting published is more important than the realism, then by all means change it. I'm sure I was just more confusing!
So long as the swearing isn't gratuitous, I think you'll be okay. And at the same time, if you had some tough-guy 18yo gang member being all "gosh darn it!" then it would read wrong and the swearing would work way better.
Shady_Lane (the AW member who started this thread) wrote her first published YA at 16/17 I remember, and she was actually asked to put more 'f*ck's in I think!
Quixcy
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I think so long as the storytelling was engaging and authentic, then the right agent would be perfectly acceptable to it. It's just a book for a certain kind of audience, it seems IMO.
IKnowNotmyName
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Sorry I came in so late to this thread. I'm still new, comparatively speaking, and wasn't here when this was posted.
I just wanted to say I completely agree with you. Everything you said about YA books these days being more about showing what adults want their teenage kids to read as opposed to the teenagers themselves is completely true. I couldn't have said it better myself. My hats off to you.
I am actually very one the fence about this type of thing, because I have two conflicting ideas I believe strongly.
The first is that I think you need to write the novel you want to write. I have a hard time getting on board with people who start out thinking that they are writing a book for publication. This might not be true for well-established authors who live off their writing, but I still think it sort of is. Writing is an art, and artists sort of need to do what’s in their soul. If your novel is edgy then that’s what it is.
The second thing is that as adults creating a product for children, I think YA writers need to maintain a sense of responsibility. Sorry, if the younger group here protests that, but I really do believe it. Younger readers can be influenced by characters they love! Its just a fact. I can’t tell you how many of my little cousins talk about how they want to meet a guy like Edward Cullen.
So now, when I write for younger people, I write MCs that I would feel GOOD about them emulating. I don’t want to be the writer who is responsible for encouraging young people to stay in destructive relationships. I don’t want to be the writer that makes cigarettes look cool. I just don’t.
I think its important not to lose sight that really successful novels can shape the perceptions of young readers. To me, writing a novel confers responsibility like driving a car. I don’t give my keys to a drunk person, and I wouldn’t give a potentially damaging novel to someone in the YA audience.
I’m not saying they can’t have edgy themes, because real life is full of hard stuff. I just wouldn’t want those edgy themes to be presented in a way that says its alright to hurt yourself or others.
Sorry, that this is so long. This is actually a topic I discuss a lot with my adult friends who ask why I write for a YA audience.
The first is that I think you need to write the novel you want to write. I have a hard time getting on board with people who start out thinking that they are writing a book for publication. This might not be true for well-established authors who live off their writing, but I still think it sort of is. Writing is an art, and artists sort of need to do what’s in their soul. If your novel is edgy then that’s what it is.
The second thing is that as adults creating a product for children, I think YA writers need to maintain a sense of responsibility. Sorry, if the younger group here protests that, but I really do believe it. Younger readers can be influenced by characters they love! Its just a fact. I can’t tell you how many of my little cousins talk about how they want to meet a guy like Edward Cullen.
So now, when I write for younger people, I write MCs that I would feel GOOD about them emulating. I don’t want to be the writer who is responsible for encouraging young people to stay in destructive relationships. I don’t want to be the writer that makes cigarettes look cool. I just don’t.
I think its important not to lose sight that really successful novels can shape the perceptions of young readers. To me, writing a novel confers responsibility like driving a car. I don’t give my keys to a drunk person, and I wouldn’t give a potentially damaging novel to someone in the YA audience.
I’m not saying they can’t have edgy themes, because real life is full of hard stuff. I just wouldn’t want those edgy themes to be presented in a way that says its alright to hurt yourself or others.
Sorry, that this is so long. This is actually a topic I discuss a lot with my adult friends who ask why I write for a YA audience.
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As an author, I don't feel I have responsibility to "teach" my readers or encourage them toward positive behavior, healthy relationships, etc.
I have a responsibility to tell a good story the way it needs to be told. The way the characters present themselves to me when the plot bunnies hop into my head.
On the other hand, I also have a responsibility to *myself* as an author to write something I'm comfortable having teens (and sometimes younger; I've had readers as young as 9 contact me) read. For me, that means no or fade-out sex scenes, generally, not presenting drugs, alcohol, or smoking as glamorous wonderful things, and showing teens getting *out* of abusive situations and getting help when needed.
I don't write that way because I feel as a grown-up I have to protect and educate the young'uns; I write that way because as a writer, that's my comfort zone. Honestly, as a mom and former teacher, I feel kinda like a "creeper" as my kids would say, writing sex between teens.
On the other hand, I don't always stay in that zone; I have a novel that came out last year that not only has fairly graphic descriptions of the 15-year-old male MC's, er, physical responses to being around the guy he's crushing on, but also has an on-page, though vaguely written, scene of the rape of said 15-year-old by said crush.
Ironically, although the publisher of that novel doesn't allow even off-page "penetrative sex" in the books they put out, they left the rape scene as written.
I also write adult/erotic romance under a different name. I tend to save the really graphic stuff for those.
I've just read all 21 pages of this thread, by the way, because I'm working on a novel that's either upper YA or New Adult (main character's 18, which is important because I need her to have aged out of foster care, but she could be 17 if need be) that's one of the darkest things I've ever written. I'm reassured now.
I have a responsibility to tell a good story the way it needs to be told. The way the characters present themselves to me when the plot bunnies hop into my head.
On the other hand, I also have a responsibility to *myself* as an author to write something I'm comfortable having teens (and sometimes younger; I've had readers as young as 9 contact me) read. For me, that means no or fade-out sex scenes, generally, not presenting drugs, alcohol, or smoking as glamorous wonderful things, and showing teens getting *out* of abusive situations and getting help when needed.
I don't write that way because I feel as a grown-up I have to protect and educate the young'uns; I write that way because as a writer, that's my comfort zone. Honestly, as a mom and former teacher, I feel kinda like a "creeper" as my kids would say, writing sex between teens.
On the other hand, I don't always stay in that zone; I have a novel that came out last year that not only has fairly graphic descriptions of the 15-year-old male MC's, er, physical responses to being around the guy he's crushing on, but also has an on-page, though vaguely written, scene of the rape of said 15-year-old by said crush.
Ironically, although the publisher of that novel doesn't allow even off-page "penetrative sex" in the books they put out, they left the rape scene as written.
I also write adult/erotic romance under a different name. I tend to save the really graphic stuff for those.
I've just read all 21 pages of this thread, by the way, because I'm working on a novel that's either upper YA or New Adult (main character's 18, which is important because I need her to have aged out of foster care, but she could be 17 if need be) that's one of the darkest things I've ever written. I'm reassured now.
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I'm in sort of a tricky position as I'm finding more and more and either writing edgy MG, or early YA.
I still generally don't curse, and generally resort to implication rather than directness. But I don't mind showing both the good and the bad of mankind either. But getting that balance, is extremely hard.
I still generally don't curse, and generally resort to implication rather than directness. But I don't mind showing both the good and the bad of mankind either. But getting that balance, is extremely hard.
Here's a question that I'm not sure where to put other than here, even though I know it doesn't belong here.
I don't want to write Edgy YA so much as I want to write novels for adults with child protagonists. Obviously the content itself would not be any worse than "edgy" YA can be, with cursing/sex and other situations, but I don't feel like my novel ideas are YA so much as just fantasy novels.
A few examples would be Ender's Game (which wasn't originally YA, though granted "YA" was less of a thing when it came out) and The Talisman (by Stephen King, which is still not marketed as YA despite the protagonist being 12 if I recall).
But how does that really work? If I sent a novel featuring a 12 year old to a non-YA agent, would they just tell me that it is actually YA? I've heard of similar things happening. I do want to write YA, but in a few of my novels I want to do more.
On another note, anyone else know any examples of adult novels featuring protagonists that are 14 or younger?
And... what's the difference, I guess? Themes? Most YA seems to deal with the coming-of-age concept and romance in some sense, so is that part of what separates YA from novels like the Talisman?
I don't want to write Edgy YA so much as I want to write novels for adults with child protagonists. Obviously the content itself would not be any worse than "edgy" YA can be, with cursing/sex and other situations, but I don't feel like my novel ideas are YA so much as just fantasy novels.
A few examples would be Ender's Game (which wasn't originally YA, though granted "YA" was less of a thing when it came out) and The Talisman (by Stephen King, which is still not marketed as YA despite the protagonist being 12 if I recall).
But how does that really work? If I sent a novel featuring a 12 year old to a non-YA agent, would they just tell me that it is actually YA? I've heard of similar things happening. I do want to write YA, but in a few of my novels I want to do more.
On another note, anyone else know any examples of adult novels featuring protagonists that are 14 or younger?
And... what's the difference, I guess? Themes? Most YA seems to deal with the coming-of-age concept and romance in some sense, so is that part of what separates YA from novels like the Talisman?
12yo won't be YA no matter what you do.
But if you're not writing for a middle grade audience--like if you're writing like Stephen King--I doubt agents will force you to make it MG.
Shady's Edgy YA isn't so much the thread for you, but check out the YA vs. MG thread, which also is vs. adult. Also the "What constitutes as YA" thread, both stickied here in YA. However, if you were to read this thread, you'd see that cursing and sex doesn't make it not YA. But, still, 12yo protagonists are not YA
Fantasy has a long history of child and teen protagonists, though less so in contemporary fantasy, I think.
But if you're not writing for a middle grade audience--like if you're writing like Stephen King--I doubt agents will force you to make it MG.
Shady's Edgy YA isn't so much the thread for you, but check out the YA vs. MG thread, which also is vs. adult. Also the "What constitutes as YA" thread, both stickied here in YA. However, if you were to read this thread, you'd see that cursing and sex doesn't make it not YA. But, still, 12yo protagonists are not YA
Fantasy has a long history of child and teen protagonists, though less so in contemporary fantasy, I think.
Well like my two protagonists are like 11 and 13. Eleven is borderline MG, and isnt 14 like the beginning of YA?
And Fina is pretty much the main character. (Which makes the rest of the plot fall apart, since fourteen is way to old to need a maid.) I guess thats for editing later, but thats the confusion for how edgy I can make it. And also Nina would need to read MG books, not Picture Books. I'm noticing all these errors after the fact.
I may just need a break, do short fiction for a bit. It might help I do Dark Fantasy and Urban Fantasy though.
And Fina is pretty much the main character. (Which makes the rest of the plot fall apart, since fourteen is way to old to need a maid.) I guess thats for editing later, but thats the confusion for how edgy I can make it. And also Nina would need to read MG books, not Picture Books. I'm noticing all these errors after the fact.
I may just need a break, do short fiction for a bit. It might help I do Dark Fantasy and Urban Fantasy though.
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