Not cliche per se, okay maybe they are

LJD · Apr 12, 2013

articshark said:
If your heroine is anywhere past college age and she is still a virgin, you are writing more about your fantasy wishes than the reality women live today.

So am I not realistic? By the time I had sex, I'd graduated from both high school and university. Wasn't for religious reasons, either. Now, I know this doesn't describe the majority of women, but it sure isn't super uncommon. It's not like I'm the only person I know like this.

I don't like it when the heroine is an older virgin and a Really Big Deal is made of her virginity though. I hate when this consumes her identity.

AJMcGough said:
So glad to see that someone shares my opinion. When I decided to start writing my MS, my first decision when it came to my lead female was that she was going to be, shall we say, seasoned. I saw no reason why she had to be a tribute to purity. As a matter of fact what I ended up loving most about her (and people who have read my MS agree) is that she is REAL. She's had a lot of sex, with a lot of different guys, and you know what? I think she's still a pretty great character. And that's not just because I wrote her lol.

You know, I honestly can't remember the last virgin heroine I read in a contemporary. I really can't. My understanding is that they're common in Harlequin Presents-type books, but in the sort of romances I read, they're not. Usually not much is made of the heroine's sexual past, though I've read a few where she's not a virgin, but is not very experienced--I have noticed a tendency for the heroine to be the less sexually-experienced of the two.

I am writing a novella where the heroine has lots of casual sex, has a reputation for it, and is slut shamed...and yeah, that is not a common personal history you see for women in romance novels, although men who are rakes are everywhere. They're sure not shamed for it though.

But please, I would prefer if people didn't imply that virgins in their twenties are completely unrealistic (though it doesn't grate on me quite like "real women have curves," uggh). It makes me sad whenever I hear these things, like people are unable to think of me as a real woman, like I must be a little bit of a freak, even though I doubt that's the sort of thing anyone's thinking of when they write such things. This is some women's reality, and they are no less real for it. (*I'm not saying that portrayals of older virgins in romance novels are all wonderful, or that they're not disproportionately common--though again, I don't see them in the romances I read.)

articshark · Apr 12, 2013

articshark said:
the average age that an AMERICAN woman loses her virginity is a little after they turn 17. I don't want to debate the morality of that. I am just repeating the facts compiled by Dilbert like people who live for statistics. Who knows I looked this up a while ago, the age might have gone down by now.

If your heroine is anywhere past college age and she is still a virgin, you are writing more about your fantasy wishes than the reality women live today.

Um I bolded the language that describes where I said average age of loss.

I found this article just googling.
http://www.mademan.com/mm/average-age-lose-virginity.html

It actually gives average of age of virginity loss in many countries as well as the US. And the number changed from when I looked it up. It is somewhere after 16.

LJD said:
So am I not realistic? By the time I had sex, I'd graduated from both high school and university. Wasn't for religious reasons, either. Now, I know this doesn't describe the majority of women, but it sure isn't super uncommon. It's not like I'm the only person I know like this.

Do all of your heroines retain their virginity into their mid to late twenties? I was describing writings that have heroines who are virgins into the mid to late twenties.

I know I don't base my heroines on my real life. I try not to interject me as a person in the form of a character into my writing. I realize that women lose their virginity at various ages, thus we have averages. My work reflects this. Say if I were to write a woman from a strict Eastern country, like China or Japan or Korea, I would write them and about their virginity differently than I would write about a woman from America or Canada or France.

And no it's not uncommon for women to retain their virginity for as long as they want. But to write about it as if that were the reality of the current statistics is fantasy. I don't need a lot of reality in my fiction. It is fiction, after all. But what I want is if you are going to draw from American culture and have that be your fictional world, actually use American cultural norms.

I also find it irritating to read about female vaginal climaxes again and again because this is not the statistical norm. I wish I could find more fiction where the woman needs direct clitoral stimulation to get off.

I get that not all of my wishes are going to be granted. I really do. But it is irritating to me personally to read. Thus I placed the aforementioned irritant into a post. Not to attack you directly, or even indirectly. Cause, ummm, I don't even know you. But to declare my irritation that fiction depicting women who are virgins into the mid to late twenties who are also be lawyers, doctors, etc., are a fantasy reflection of the writer's mind and not the reality that is statistically expressed in modern America today.

My post had nothing to do with your reality. I didn't read about it nor did I get irritated by it. Well, I don't think I did unless yours is one of the books I read that contained this anomaly AND you wrote about yourself in fictionalized form.

AJMcGough · Apr 12, 2013

LJD said:
You know, I honestly can't remember the last virgin heroine I read in a contemporary.

In my original post I was just complaining about inexperienced women in general, not necessarily virgins, who are MCs and then all of a sudden they are doing something wildly out of their sexual realm ie public sex, something kinky, orgasming like they have no control of their body.

I don't come across many virgins in contemporary either, but when it happens it seems to not be done in a realistic manner. Or all of a sudden after one night they're a sexual vixen. None of this really started out as an attack on older virgins (not that you took it that way...). I think if you want your MC to be a virgin then it should be handled properly. Give a reason why, make it believable, and then make her reaction to sex believable

LJD · Apr 12, 2013

articshark said:
But it is irritating to me personally to read. Thus I placed the aforementioned irritant into a post.

That's fair. We all don't like the same thing. I try to avoid widowed heroines.

It's just that:

If your heroine is anywhere past college age and she is still a virgin, you are writing more about your fantasy wishes than the reality women live today.

But to declare my irritation that fiction depicting women who are virgins into the mid to late twenties who are also be lawyers, doctors, etc., are a fantasy reflection of the writer's mind and not the reality that is statistically expressed in modern America today.

...read to me as a rejection of the experience of women who are not in the majority. That's what I took issue with. Not everyone is average. Not all characters should be average.

I don't doubt there are a few authors who do this. And if an author were to write virgin heroine after virgin heroine, I'd be a little weirded out. But I would not outright dismiss all such heroines as being an expression of the writer's fantasy when such women exist IRL.

And I'm just not seeing many of these heroines in contemporary romance these days (or hearing about them outside of the HPs, which I don't read) so I don't think this fantasy is a widespread problem currently, though it may have been in the past. I do agree that if the majority of contemp romance heroines were virgins, this would bother me, though I am happy for there to be a few of them.

I realize that women lose their virginity at various ages, thus we have averages. My work reflects this.

Do you expect all heroines to be average in this respect then...? Is that how you create your characters...?

I don't see the average as being terribly relevant to a given character, except in how it relates to how she feels about her experience eg. if she was much older than average when she first had sex, she might feel behind, like a late bloomer. And if I wrote many contemporary romances, I would think the average age at which the heroines first have sex would have some passing similarity to the average where they live (as in, it wouldn't be 27...). But that's about it. It's not something I think much about when writing.

I also find it irritating to read about female vaginal climaxes again and again because this is not the statistical norm. I wish I could find more fiction where the woman needs direct clitoral stimulation to get off.

I want to see more of this too, and wrote such a character...

articshark · Apr 12, 2013

Lora Leigh. Nauti boys series. That is all.

articshark · Apr 12, 2013

So on to other things in FICTION that bothers me... (cause I don't really care about memoirs or OPP) are heroes that have HUGE DICKS. Seriously?

AJMcGough · Apr 12, 2013

articshark said:
So on to other things in FICTION that bothers me... (cause I don't really care about memoirs or OPP) are heroes that have HUGE DICKS. Seriously?

Well yeah...who wants to read about a small penis?? LOL. You can't have mind blowing sex if your penis isn't the size of a cucumber. That's not just fiction...that's science. *sarcasm*

gingerwoman · Apr 13, 2013

LJD said:
So am I not realistic? By the time I had sex, I'd graduated from both high school and university. Wasn't for religious reasons, either. Now, I know this doesn't describe the majority of women, but it sure isn't super uncommon. It's not like I'm the only person I know like this.

I don't like it when the heroine is an older virgin and a Really Big Deal is made of her virginity though. I hate when this consumes her identity.

You know, I honestly can't remember the last virgin heroine I read in a contemporary. I really can't. My understanding is that they're common in Harlequin Presents-type books, but in the sort of romances I read, they're not. Usually not much is made of the heroine's sexual past, though I've read a few where she's not a virgin, but is not very experienced--I have noticed a tendency for the heroine to be the less sexually-experienced of the two.

I am writing a novella where the heroine has lots of casual sex, has a reputation for it, and is slut shamed...and yeah, that is not a common personal history you see for women in romance novels, although men who are rakes are everywhere. They're sure not shamed for it though.

But please, I would prefer if people didn't imply that virgins in their twenties are completely unrealistic (though it doesn't grate on me quite like "real women have curves," uggh). It makes me sad whenever I hear these things, like people are unable to think of me as a real woman, like I must be a little bit of a freak, even though I doubt that's the sort of thing anyone's thinking of when they write such things. This is some women's reality, and they are no less real for it. (*I'm not saying that portrayals of older virgins in romance novels are all wonderful, or that they're not disproportionately common--though again, I don't see them in the romances I read.)

I was 19. And not religious, just wishing I could meet someone to have sex with who wanted more than sex and not having any luck with that. I don't think it's uncommon at all. If the average age in the USA is 17 then that means there are a lot of virgins older than 17.
I have yet to write a virginal heroine myself.
I'm thinking the reason for their popularity is something other than a desire for purity though.

gingerwoman · Apr 13, 2013

LJD said:
So am I not realistic? By the time I had sex, I'd graduated from both high school and university. Wasn't for religious reasons, either. Now, I know this doesn't describe the majority of women, but it sure isn't super uncommon. It's not like I'm the only person I know like this.

I don't like it when the heroine is an older virgin and a Really Big Deal is made of her virginity though. I hate when this consumes her identity.

You know, I honestly can't remember the last virgin heroine I read in a contemporary. I really can't. My understanding is that they're common in Harlequin Presents-type books, but in the sort of romances I read, they're not. Usually not much is made of the heroine's sexual past, though I've read a few where she's not a virgin, but is not very experienced--I have noticed a tendency for the heroine to be the less sexually-experienced of the two.

I am writing a novella where the heroine has lots of casual sex, has a reputation for it, and is slut shamed...and yeah, that is not a common personal history you see for women in romance novels, although men who are rakes are everywhere. They're sure not shamed for it though.

But please, I would prefer if people didn't imply that virgins in their twenties are completely unrealistic (though it doesn't grate on me quite like "real women have curves," uggh). It makes me sad whenever I hear these things, like people are unable to think of me as a real woman, like I must be a little bit of a freak, even though I doubt that's the sort of thing anyone's thinking of when they write such things. This is some women's reality, and they are no less real for it. (*I'm not saying that portrayals of older virgins in romance novels are all wonderful, or that they're not disproportionately common--though again, I don't see them in the romances I read.)

The last one I read was 50 shades of Grey. I think that book may be behind some of the fervent feelings in this thread though I didn't have a problem with it. I did have a problem with the heroine being a 25 year old virgin who supposedly had never masturbated though!

Roxxsmom · Apr 15, 2013

I tend to be annoyed by the much older, more experienced man and barely past puberty female angle. I know some happy couples where there is a large age difference, but they usually didn't meet and fall in love when she was 18 and he was 35. I guess it's a historic romance trope, and it's a nod to the idea that women of higher social classes were "supposed" to be virgins until they married back then. But geez, maybe have one where she wasn't such a good girl now and again. Or maybe have the male protag be a bit younger and not quite so world weary himself.

Nekko · Apr 16, 2013

Well after reading through all these overused cliches, I'm feeling much better about my WIP. It has many flaws, but fortunately avoids most of these. Yeah!

LA*78 · Apr 16, 2013

I don't mind the occasional cliche. I don't read romance for reality, I read it for escapism. Let's face it, most of these cliche's wouldn't exist if they weren't what people fantasised about (at least on occasion). It is really only where multiple cliches are dumped together in a book with barely threads of plot joining them that I get really frustrated. That and when the author gets too repetitive with actions. I mean really, there's only so many times a man can cock his head before he kinks his neck permanently...

Rhoda Nightingale · Apr 22, 2013

LA*78 said:
I don't mind the occasional cliche. I don't read romance for reality, I read it for escapism. Let's face it, most of these cliche's wouldn't exist if they weren't what people fantasised about (at least on occasion). It is really only where multiple cliches are dumped together in a book with barely threads of plot joining them that I get really frustrated. That and when the author gets too repetitive with actions. I mean really, there's only so many times a man can cock his head before he kinks his neck permanently...

I think I've just realized why I don't enjoy most romance--my "escapism" is like most people's nightmares. I fantasize about . . . strange things. Love stories are on the list, somewhere, but they're never the focal point of said fantasy.

Not cliche per se, okay maybe they are

LJD

articshark

shoes are like crack

AJMcGough

LJD

articshark

shoes are like crack

articshark

shoes are like crack

AJMcGough

gingerwoman

gingerwoman

Roxxsmom

Raised by Wolves

Nekko

Back to purring

LA*78

Rhoda Nightingale

Vampire Junkie