Although it might make a nice plot point to have her conflicted between the two for a while.
A man rescuing a woman--is that a problem?
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I just want to jump in and say you shouldn't change anything about your story based on that feedback. It sounds like a good read. Of all the words you've probably written, the issue here is a 6 word clause in your query: "...she chooses the hero who saves her." If anything, that would be the bit to consider changing, and only if you want to. The public won't be reading your query, after all. (Unless you post it, that is.)
Write on, LA. You've got a story to tell. Interesting setting, current and perhaps a heroic love interest. I'd read it!
Look, everyone has an opinion. Sometimes they're valid, sometimes they're not. You need to write what the characters tell you, and if you do a good job, I PROMISE you that your book will sell regardless of how it's labeled. I'm not saying be totally belligerent to any change, your editor is going to smack your MS around-alot, but don't throw everything in the fire based off an opinion that is most probably based on taste, and since you can't quanitfy someone's taste in something being right or wrong, who are they to say that aspect of your book is wrong. You know your characters. You know your story. They are looking at your book through the distorted lens of their taste and as such are entitled to not like certain aspects of your story. And vice versa.
I agree with all of the above. I don't think you should change anything or write anything based on peoples opinions. I think constructive criticism is great, and can be very helpful.
At the end of the day after taking all of it in, you need to be true to your characters and yourself. It's their story so allow them to tell it without the interference of what someone else thinks they should or shouldn't do.
The "...she chooses the hero who saves her." I'm kind of lost. I guess I don't understand the context. Did she choose him in the end? I may have missed something, which is very possible.
I don't think he's only saving her because he loves her. But I will say that is cause for some serious motivation honey!
Be true and write on!!!
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I like a more realistic read and in the situation you described, I don't see how a woman could save herself. I would leave it as you wrote it. I think it is a common belief in fiction that if the protag doesn't save herself, she is weak, actually the opposite could be true sometime it's the refusal to ask forhelp and do it on your own that gets people into trouble. I'm not saying you want the protag to be so needy all the time, but there are times when help is needed.
I'm not disputing that, but if I read that, it would come across as stepping over the line, particularly in the context of the whole quote.
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So I haven't read every post in this thread, and I'm not a reader of romance. But as an extremely independent woman, I do have some thoughts on this.
Ultimately, I think that if there's going to be a rescue, as long as it's not contrivance, it's fine.
It would, for example, be very contrived if you had the girl rescue the guy for no other reason than the plot calls for a rescue and you were doing cartwheels in your efforts to avoiding letting the girl lean even a tiny bit on the guy. Or if you had another woman do the rescuing for the same reason.
i agree with the other comments that it's good to have some balance- if the female character has the opportunity to come to the male character's aid elsewhere in the story- just don't bend your plot into pretzels to invent the opportunity.
If you're writing a character who is strong, intelligent and capable, assuming you've done your job, it's going to show and the fact that a man who cared about her came to her rescue is not going to diminish her strength. if that point alone makes someone think less of the character, that's their problem.
On the other hand If all one is trying to do is rack up enough big tough girl points, in the end that's all you're going to wind up with.
So let your male rescue your female if that's what happens.
Ask yourself, if this scene was taking place right now in real life, and you were there to witness it, what would you see happen?
I agree that this line is problematic. You've said elsewhere that she chooses him for other reasons- if she has other reasons, that is good! But from here, it does make her look like she's just clasping her hands to her breast, exclaiming "my hero!" and swooning.
You make some really good points here. One thing I think that needs to be taken into consideration is the reality of the part of the world where this scene takes place. However strong and capable she is, would she truly be able to rescue herself? Would it be very likely that another woman would be at all able to come to her aid? What is actually going to be realistic in this story?
I think that if you can properly account for the reality of the setting, and answer the above question of how the scene would play out if it were a real world event that you were witness to, you will have the answer of what to do.
Both are equally bad in that situation. If he effectively saved her without detrimental effects, why would she complain? Because it isn't feministically correct?
It's a mob. That means it's many people against two. She can't realistically get out on herself if she's just an ordinary person who doesn't know karate or kung fu, or whatever and doesn't have a gun.
Realistically, it would be like this: She is attacked. She fights, but there are too many attackers. He comes to her help, and suddenly they're two. Some of the attackers get cold feet - what if a third person wants to help them? - and run away, they fight off the rest.
Keep in mind that men in "true love" aren't superhuman in real life - if there are three attackers and he wins the fight on his own while she is unconscious, you need an explanation.
The best thing is probably to have him attack the mob first, then have others who were reluctant join the fight. That's realistic - people would hesitate to attack a mob all on their own - and gets you out of the Man saves Woman problem.
@Pain and Light: If she is there, chances are that other women are there too. They may hesitate to help her because they fear they'd be targeted by the mob themselves, but they could join the fight when they see she isn't so outnumbered anymore. Being there is already dangerous, the women who are there are brave. Maybe not brave enough to join a unwinnable fight, but brave enough to join the fight if there is a chance of winning.
I think this is a fascinating discussion, so I'm sorry in advance for all the multi-quote shenanigans ^_^
I'm with the others who say that it's the line in your query that's a problem. I hate when female characters are portrayed as unrealistically weak and need a man to make all the decisions for them, but that doesn't mean all scenarios where a man rescues a woman is eye roll-inducing.
The bolded part is what actually stood out to me. There were a few people who said something along the lines that readers like different things, so if you want to have a book full of man-rescuing-woman, it's not a big deal. Ultimately this is true, but if one of your themes is about women's rights and women being strong in a male-dominated culture, then having a good balance of realism and a strong female MC is really important...otherwise you'd look like a hypocrite. I think it's really good that you're concerned for that reason. If you're giving it this much thought, then the problem probably is the query and not the way you handle things in the book.
I respectfully disagree with this. LAgrunion, if your entire book is about the balance of power between the sexes in an Islamic country, then the way you handle and portray the differences between male and female characters becomes especially important. Plus, if you're worrying about the query, you've written the book. Revision is the time for looking at your book logically and objectively. Raising appropriate questions shouldn't be messing with your creative energy, because you'd already done the creating. It's a very necessary part of the process if you don't want plot holes and don't want to contradict your theme.
I definitely agree with the people who thought the motivations don't sound quite strong enough here. I get what you said later on about feeling ungrateful if you didn't give your relationship another chance, but it really depends on the reason for the relationship to end in the first place. If she felt he didn't really love her, or wouldn't go against the cultural teachings and view her as an equal, giving him a second chance after he lied about the rescue makes sense. It would show he cares, and it would also be symbolic of him choosing her over the majority. If he was physically or mentally abusive, gratitude just isn't enough.
This pretty much sums it up for me. Like I said above, it really depends on the reason for the split. If the fiance (lying about) saving her gives her reason to think he's changed, THAT would be enough reason for her to second guess leaving him. Gratitude is a really flimsy motivation.
Yup. ^_^
THIS. It's good that you want to make sure your MC being rescued by a guy isn't an issue--which it's not--but her motivations for staying with the fiance are the real issue for exactly this reason.
I haven't read your query, but I definitely agree that line at least needs to change. Not only because it's going to turn agents off, but because it doesn't even seem to accurately portray the spirit of your story. The story isn't about her being rescued and then choosing a rescuer. It seems to be about her discovering her strength as a woman, joining a movement that allows her to explore and exhibit that strength, and using her newfound strength to make a choice between two men. (Who I'm assuming are sort of on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of their views on women's rights. You haven't really given any indication of that, but it seems like the romance subplot would mirror the issues of the overarching story...or vicey-versey if the romance is the main plot and the protests are a subplot.)
Anyway, sorry this was crazy long, and good luck!
I'm with the others who say that it's the line in your query that's a problem. I hate when female characters are portrayed as unrealistically weak and need a man to make all the decisions for them, but that doesn't mean all scenarios where a man rescues a woman is eye roll-inducing.
The bolded part is what actually stood out to me. There were a few people who said something along the lines that readers like different things, so if you want to have a book full of man-rescuing-woman, it's not a big deal. Ultimately this is true, but if one of your themes is about women's rights and women being strong in a male-dominated culture, then having a good balance of realism and a strong female MC is really important...otherwise you'd look like a hypocrite. I think it's really good that you're concerned for that reason. If you're giving it this much thought, then the problem probably is the query and not the way you handle things in the book.
I respectfully disagree with this. LAgrunion, if your entire book is about the balance of power between the sexes in an Islamic country, then the way you handle and portray the differences between male and female characters becomes especially important. Plus, if you're worrying about the query, you've written the book. Revision is the time for looking at your book logically and objectively. Raising appropriate questions shouldn't be messing with your creative energy, because you'd already done the creating. It's a very necessary part of the process if you don't want plot holes and don't want to contradict your theme.
I definitely agree with the people who thought the motivations don't sound quite strong enough here. I get what you said later on about feeling ungrateful if you didn't give your relationship another chance, but it really depends on the reason for the relationship to end in the first place. If she felt he didn't really love her, or wouldn't go against the cultural teachings and view her as an equal, giving him a second chance after he lied about the rescue makes sense. It would show he cares, and it would also be symbolic of him choosing her over the majority. If he was physically or mentally abusive, gratitude just isn't enough.
This pretty much sums it up for me. Like I said above, it really depends on the reason for the split. If the fiance (lying about) saving her gives her reason to think he's changed, THAT would be enough reason for her to second guess leaving him. Gratitude is a really flimsy motivation.
Yup. ^_^
THIS. It's good that you want to make sure your MC being rescued by a guy isn't an issue--which it's not--but her motivations for staying with the fiance are the real issue for exactly this reason.
I haven't read your query, but I definitely agree that line at least needs to change. Not only because it's going to turn agents off, but because it doesn't even seem to accurately portray the spirit of your story. The story isn't about her being rescued and then choosing a rescuer. It seems to be about her discovering her strength as a woman, joining a movement that allows her to explore and exhibit that strength, and using her newfound strength to make a choice between two men. (Who I'm assuming are sort of on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of their views on women's rights. You haven't really given any indication of that, but it seems like the romance subplot would mirror the issues of the overarching story...or vicey-versey if the romance is the main plot and the protests are a subplot.)
Anyway, sorry this was crazy long, and good luck!
Lots of reasons the FMC might not want to be 'rescued' by the male.
Maybe she's about to talk her way out of the situation. Maybe she knows one of the mob organizers, the local policeman, or a local citizen of some repute. Maybe she was about to run like hell, and the MMC attracted so much attention in her direction that she couldn't. Maybe she's a photojournalist and Risking Her Life to get pictures the MMC just jettisoned.
What I'm saying is, the author can write a rescue scene and carefully adjust the amount of gratitude this produces. It's author's choice.
The author can give her karate. The author can put a Luger in her jeans. One can't just say -- she's a woman so she's incapable. It is authorial choice.
I dunnoh.
Will the reader see the author as saying, "Then a second person showed up so the crowd backed down."
and figure two women would have done this just as well. Or will the reader think,
"Then a man showed up to save the day."
There's nothing wrong with either of these scenarios. But I don't think they address the OP's problem, in that the MMC is still 'saving' the FMC.
I think this is part of the large question -- does the author routinely treat the FMC as inherently lesser and weaker than the MMC? Writing, we choose scenes that showcase each protag's particular strengths.
If the MMC slings the unconscious female over his shoulder and escapes the crocodiles ... in a companion scene the FMC grabs a spear and prods the pack of hyenas away from the unconscious MMC.
Since we're writing for female readers mostly, we remember they will not enjoy a book where power, strength, competence and agency are overwhelming assigned to male characters. They will not like a succession of scenes where the balance of power rests solely in the male court.
Thus the tricky part of damsel-in-distress scenarios.
There are lots of kinds of strength.
Myself, I like the courage and power that does not lie in karate or carrying a gun. The pacifist in the front line of the protest who goes down under the boots of the police, the Texas woman keeping the farm going till her husband gets back from war, the fifteen-year-old raising her brothers and sisters because Momma went to heaven -- these are strong women and none of them would be worth damnspit in a riot.
As to falling in love with someone who claims to have rescued you but didn't ...
I don't think one should fall in love from gratitude and obligation.
One might fall in love with what seems to be courage and strength and self-sacrifice. Pity if it later turns out to be all lies.
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And that right there is reason número uno that, in my opinion, the fact that the guy rescues the girl should not be changed here. It's the reality of the situation.
You said she was unconscious or otherwise incapacitated, yes? If this is the case then all the guns and karate skills in the world aren't going to be of help to her.
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There's nothing wrong with your concept. Ignore those opinions. Crit partners are better off commenting on craft not story content.Mention that the story has a romantic subplot but you maybe don't need to mention the rescue in the query.
(Late to the party and haven't actually checked to see if you've got a new Q up but here because of the discussion, which is interesting)
I was one of the people who had a problem with that line.
It's not a problem to have a man save a woman.
The problem *is* the way it is phrased: she must chose the hero who saves her. You present her as having two options, Man A or Man B. She is a Hollywood Lawyer.
As I said on that crit, maybe I'm just not the audience. You don't have to change it, but it's probably useful to be aware some people find it a turn off.
I was one of the people who had a problem with that line.
It's not a problem to have a man save a woman.
The problem *is* the way it is phrased: she must chose the hero who saves her. You present her as having two options, Man A or Man B. She is a Hollywood Lawyer.
As I said on that crit, maybe I'm just not the audience. You don't have to change it, but it's probably useful to be aware some people find it a turn off.
I agree! In this situation, it's just a fact that most women would be very vulnerable. It's more realistic--unless she's a spy and has military training--that a man would have to step in. She can be strong in other ways, like not letting herself become an emotional victim, and using what happened as a catalyst to help other women.
Frankly, I'd need some info but if it's just a normal guy against a mob somehow manages to save her (without running away/driving away) I would toss the book across the room.
That maybe be because I've been watching a bunch of annoying sexist movies (my dad is watching a James Bond marathon) so my patience is already worn out, but... I would only forgive it if there was an obvious way out (does he have a gun? Is he really close to a car and all he has to do is like, drag her inside and drive away?)
Don't make him fist fight off the mob.
It would really turn me off the book if she never got to do her own thing. If she gets to reciprocate the favor occasionally, I'd be fine.
Though I should say the police rescuing her is not the same as a romantic interest doing it -- because the police are doing there job, it's more impersonal. They are also trained, and there's more than one of them.
But in response to 1. There are ways to be brave other than physical fighting. Also, I'm having a hard time believing he can fight off a mob.
In point 2: This would make me roll my eyes so hard they pop out of my head (the idea that a man not saving a woman is losing the chance to show how much he cares). It places too much value on her vulnerability to show his emotions. Show them through him, not a fistfight.
Also, don't forget having her say "I could've gotten out of there myself" doesn't mean anything to the reader if you never show anything proving it. Otherwise, it just comes across as a "feminists, don't slam me" line.
Um, how could a man save himself? In the exact same situation, I don't think "statistically likely to have 10 percent more upper body strength" is going to do anything against a mob.
@ cllee984: that is disgusting. Saying that women are "made hot" whether they admit it or not takes away agency.
One last thing:
The proper pairing is "man, woman", "male, female". Using man and female is dehumanizing phrasing, since that's normally used for animals.
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As Fade points out, this 'He fought off the mob for her' only works if physical strength were of any use in fighting off a mob.
Which I don't buy.
I also find the argument, 'Anyone could have intervened. It's not strength; it's simply a second person showing support.' somewhat weak. Violent mobs are willing to beat several folks to death simultaneous, given the opportunity.
The story problem here is the transformation from a mob ready to kill into a mob that backs down. This transformation calls for the application of considerable moral or physical suasion.
If the scene is to be written so the MMC exerts power and the FMC can't, we do ask ourselves why.
I think we have to rule out differences in physical strength.
Does the difference lie in competence, experience, intelligence, courage . . .?
These explanations do a disservice to the FMC.
As I understand it, this is a story of inequities in a society. These cultural factors may be exactly why male intervention is inordinately more powerful.
In the mob scene -- does male support validate the female's right to be in that forum? Does it mend the cultural rift her presence causes in that edgy situation. Is it now -- "Oh. She's with you. That's okay then. I thought she was one of those [insert despised female outgroup.]"
If the whole story addresses brutal and poisonous cultural stereotypes, this mob scene might be a good place to demonstrate the strength of them. The female is not personally 'weak' in this context, nor is the male 'strong'.
The FMC is in danger because, in cultural terms, she is legitimate prey to such a mob. The male is not powerful through physically or moral strength, but because he is a legitimate member of the favored social class/race/sex and thus able to intervene with the force of the established patriarchy behind him.
I find that situation more complicated, but also more interesting than a 'he's strong and he rescued me' scene.
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Oh hey.
Obviously, you know I liked the scene.
I don't have any problems with men rescuing women, or women rescuing men, or men rescuing men or women rescuing women. I quite like the idea that, should a terrible situation arise, someone will come to my rescue, and I know that there's a good chance that someone would be male.
From a social perspective, it benefits society to have men who are willing to risk their lives to protect women. On a personal level, women want partners who are willing to risk their own lives for them and their children.
At the same time, one of the important ideas in your story is that talking big is relatively worthless. The big 'alpha' male character ends up being a coward (or at least, self-interested.) There's a moral about the importance of being genuinely motivated, rather than a show-off.
Different people like different things and react differently to stories, but frankly, anyone who claims that your story is somehow disempowering has either not read it, or is, IMO, wrong.
And no, I don't think heroism has gone out of style in romance novels. Maybe just among people who complain about romance novels.
Just my opinion, but I don't think the scene needs to be changed, edited, or deleted at all. It's a good scene. I liked it.
Good luck.
Obviously, you know I liked the scene.
I don't have any problems with men rescuing women, or women rescuing men, or men rescuing men or women rescuing women. I quite like the idea that, should a terrible situation arise, someone will come to my rescue, and I know that there's a good chance that someone would be male.
From a social perspective, it benefits society to have men who are willing to risk their lives to protect women. On a personal level, women want partners who are willing to risk their own lives for them and their children.
At the same time, one of the important ideas in your story is that talking big is relatively worthless. The big 'alpha' male character ends up being a coward (or at least, self-interested.) There's a moral about the importance of being genuinely motivated, rather than a show-off.
Different people like different things and react differently to stories, but frankly, anyone who claims that your story is somehow disempowering has either not read it, or is, IMO, wrong.
And no, I don't think heroism has gone out of style in romance novels. Maybe just among people who complain about romance novels.
Just my opinion, but I don't think the scene needs to be changed, edited, or deleted at all. It's a good scene. I liked it.
Good luck.
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Awesome. And true.
ETA: For those of you who were insulted by this, I understand where you're coming from. For me its "true" if they're already in a love relationship. Though I can see being embarrassed that I got myself in trouble in the first place.
Anyhow I love that line.
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@ ECathers
Then it's not true. You notice the any and the whether they admit it or not. Which makes it an enormous generalization that sounds like the author trying to project their view of women onto everyone else, and deny women any ability to disagree ("Oh, you're just not admitting it")
Then it's not true. You notice the any and the whether they admit it or not. Which makes it an enormous generalization that sounds like the author trying to project their view of women onto everyone else, and deny women any ability to disagree ("Oh, you're just not admitting it")
I don't think it needs to be changed. Write the characters how they need to be written, how you see them, and let it fall into place. Guy-saves-girl is one plot found very often in romance. Sure, there will always be readers who prefer a stronger heroine, but your gal can still be strong and be saved by the hero. If it really worries you, give the heroine a little more backbone.
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The object of a query is not to tell the agent/editor every single thing about your tale.
The object of the query is to get them to request pages and ultimately consider the larger ms. Unless of course you're dealing with someone who asks for the synopsis up front. (In which case you need to rephrase your FMC's reasoning.)
Question: is this conflict over who saves her here the CENTRAL plot point or not? If not don't mention it just yet. If so, be ready to explain in much better wording.
In a query: Who are the main characters? What do they want? What is the central conflict? What are the stakes?
Since you're querying as a Romance, a HEA (or at least HFN) ending should be a foregone conclusion. Therefore no need (RIGHT NOW) to spell it all out.
Personally I have no probs with a strong female MC who occasionally gets rescued by the MMC. So long as she's shown as strong/capable/smart in other areas of the story.
I'll agree that any heroine who "chooses the guy who saved her" is up for question. I think the main prob is how you stated it in the query. She needs better reasons for choosing him than just the fact that he's really the one who saved her.
Saving my butt is certainly always appreciated, assuming I can't fix the problem myself, but that doesn't mean I want a HEA with someone who helped me get out of my self-inflicted troubles.
I will say that if "who saved her" is the central conflict then you have a problem. True love is measured on a few gazillion properties, and "who saved me" ranks pretty low there. If you save my butt I will love and appreciate you. That doesn't mean I want to jump in bed with you or spend the rest of my life in your arms.
The object of the query is to get them to request pages and ultimately consider the larger ms. Unless of course you're dealing with someone who asks for the synopsis up front. (In which case you need to rephrase your FMC's reasoning.)
Question: is this conflict over who saves her here the CENTRAL plot point or not? If not don't mention it just yet. If so, be ready to explain in much better wording.
In a query: Who are the main characters? What do they want? What is the central conflict? What are the stakes?
Since you're querying as a Romance, a HEA (or at least HFN) ending should be a foregone conclusion. Therefore no need (RIGHT NOW) to spell it all out.
Personally I have no probs with a strong female MC who occasionally gets rescued by the MMC. So long as she's shown as strong/capable/smart in other areas of the story.
I'll agree that any heroine who "chooses the guy who saved her" is up for question. I think the main prob is how you stated it in the query. She needs better reasons for choosing him than just the fact that he's really the one who saved her.
Saving my butt is certainly always appreciated, assuming I can't fix the problem myself, but that doesn't mean I want a HEA with someone who helped me get out of my self-inflicted troubles.
I will say that if "who saved her" is the central conflict then you have a problem. True love is measured on a few gazillion properties, and "who saved me" ranks pretty low there. If you save my butt I will love and appreciate you. That doesn't mean I want to jump in bed with you or spend the rest of my life in your arms.
Great discussion. From what I've read, it sounds as if your character/story will be fine, it's just a question of wording in the query. Amazing how one little line can throw everything into doubt and chaos.
As a reader, I love strong female characters. I enjoy feisty women who stand up for themselves and what they believe. I also like a strong love interest, a man who can swoop in to save the day...even though the woman might not need him to. The Scarlett/Rhett example above is perfect.
As a writer...my m/c does getsaved helped out by the possible love interest. But he also makes it clear that he doesn't want to save her, but stand by her side as she saves herself. Another key is the difference between needing and wanting.
I think your story sounds intriguing. Good luck and thanks for starting this discussion!
As a reader, I love strong female characters. I enjoy feisty women who stand up for themselves and what they believe. I also like a strong love interest, a man who can swoop in to save the day...even though the woman might not need him to. The Scarlett/Rhett example above is perfect.
As a writer...my m/c does get
I think your story sounds intriguing. Good luck and thanks for starting this discussion!
In that part of the world men are more traditional that way anyhow,aren't they? I'm one of those readers that enjoy reading men in their traditional role. Pls, don't change your story over a few comments. Stay true to your craft and what you do best. A reader can tell when they are reading something generic, it's the authors that put their all and part of themselves into their work that make connections with readers. Anyhow if we add what everyone likes into our stories we'd have an unreadable,confusing mess on our hands.
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