Confusing critique on a romance synopsis

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sunandshadow

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I don't think I have anything else to add to this conversation because wow, just wow.
I don't think I have much left to say either. The irreconcilable differences of philosophy are pretty clear, and nothing would be accomplished by arguing. I understand now why my MC was/is getting a hostile response though, so I feel the original purpose of the thread was accomplished.
 

cornflake

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Congrats, you understand. Clearly you (plural) don't agree, and that's fine. I do wish you'd take a moment to respect that my moral philosophy is logically thought out and internally consistent. And it _is_ a moral philosophy because I do think it's wrong to hurt people and right to help them be happy, though also not humanly to prevent everyone from ever feeling hurt. Inevitably it becomes a question of economics - how to spare the most people the most harm - even though in an ideal world it shouldn't be. This is pretty standard utilitarian philosophy, not something unique to me or invented by me.

That's not it though, is it. If your philosophy is the same as the MC's - her idea of helping people to be happy is to do whatever to get whatever she wants and tell herself that in some convoluted way that the precise way she's manipulating the situation is actually helping people to be happy.

It's just rationalizing her doing whatever to anyone to get whatever she wants. 'Well, he got laid so he's happy about that so therefore...' It's crazy levels of completely bizarre rationalizing.
 

Marian Perera

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Congrats, you understand. Clearly you (plural) don't agree, and that's fine. I do wish you'd take a moment to respect that my moral philosophy is logically thought out and internally consistent.

I don't think it's a moral philosophy at all, let alone that it's logical or consistent.

And it _is_ a moral philosophy because I do think it's wrong to hurt people
Only if they think they're being hurt, right?

I mean, you've argued it's OK to take naked pictures of children as long as they don't know you're doing it, and it's fine to take people's eggs or sperm as long as they're kept in the dark about this. By this reasoning, you can even steal money or valuables, as long as the victim doesn't realize they were stolen from. Robbing an old lady with dementia so severe she no longer knows what possessions she owns would certainly qualify. As long as the victim doesn't find out, it's a "victimless crime".

This is not a moral philosophy.

and right to help them be happy. But it's not humanly possible to prevent everyone from ever feeling hurt.
This doesn't necessarily mean you have to become part of the problem rather than part of the solution, though.

Inevitably it becomes a question of economics - how to spare the most people the most harm - even though in an ideal world it shouldn't be.
Well, then, to be consistent you should have agreed with me that the Peeping Tom in my hypothetical scenario should show the pictures to anyone who wants to see them. That way, he'd be making the most number of people happy. Rather than, you know, being selfish about his (child) porn collection.
 
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sohalt

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and, because you've mentionned Emma as a manipulative, but rather well-liked character - Emma meddles, yes, but the plot makes her suffer for it. Her manipulation does a lot of damage, and that damage is never glossed over (as you seem to plan on doing). By the end of the book, she has learned that it was wrong.

The problem with your heroine is not just that she does unsavory stuff, the problem is that there's no poetic justice, everything works out just her way.
 

sunandshadow

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That's not it though, is it. If your philosophy is the same as the MC's - her idea of helping people to be happy is to do whatever to get whatever she wants and tell herself that in some convoluted way that the precise way she's manipulating the situation is actually helping people to be happy.

It's just rationalizing her doing whatever to anyone to get whatever she wants. 'Well, he got laid so he's happy about that so therefore...' It's crazy levels of completely bizarre rationalizing.
I disagree. By the end of the story things get convoluted before they collapse back to simplicity (a classic story pattern I'm quite fond of). But her thoughts build logically over the course of the story.

1 She wants a child.

2 She is skeptical about this whole soulmates thing and doesn't want to disappoint this guy who has been raised in a town where soulmates are the biggest deal ever; so, she wants to meet him and decide if she's even interested in a romance with him, and if she's not then it doesn't matter that they are supposedly potential soulmates.

3 When she meets him, she realizes the soulmates thing is real, but she finds out he doesn't want kids. She's not willing to remain childless, and feels it would be both unkind and unwise to pressure an unwilling man to become a father.

4 She decides to leave him in peace, because even though it would be sad and a bit painful to walk away from a potential soulmate, starting a relationship they would likely both be unhappy in would be worse. She heads to a bar to fin a willing one night stand to sire her child.

5. But, she discovers she can't make herself go through having someone else's child. This is because her soul recognizes the LI as her soulmate and is rejecting a poor substitute. So she thinks to herself, how can she make both her and the LI happy? And the only way to do that is for her to have his child yet him to not become a parent. The rest snowballs from there, until at the end of the story the secret comes out and they finally communicate and realize there is a better compromise possible. I don't personally think any of this counts as rationalization, but you're welcome to feel differently.
 

Marian Perera

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She's not willing to remain childless, and feels it would be both unkind and unwise to pressure an unwilling man to become a father.

But it's kind and wise to deceive him and use his body for a purpose to which he has not consented?

That's going to be the sticking-point for a lot of readers.

5. But, she discovers she can't make herself go through having someone else's child. This is because her soul recognizes the LI as her soulmate and is rejecting a poor substitute.

I don't find this "her soul only wants her to have a baby with one man, whether he likes it or not" part logical at all.

If her soul's making the decisions, why doesn't it decide to adopt a baby instead? Or would her soul reject any baby who's not carrying the MMC's DNA?
 

sunandshadow

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I don't think it's a moral philosophy at all, let alone that it's logical or consistent.
You are factually wrong, but there's no benefit for either of us in arguing over my personal philosophy. It's completely irrelevant to romance at this point, and you seem upset, which combines badly with online discussion. I enjoy and respect absolute write and I don't want to contribute to starting a flame war. As I said, the thread's purpose has been accomplished, if not in the way I originally imagined it would be, and our irreconcilable differences have been clearly established. Can I stop replying now without people feeling that I rudely left them hanging?
 

cornflake

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I disagree. By the end of the story things get convoluted before they collapse back to simplicity (a classic story pattern I'm quite fond of). But her thoughts build logically over the course of the story.

1 She wants a child.

2 She is skeptical about this whole soulmates thing and doesn't want to disappoint this guy who has been raised in a town where soulmates are the biggest deal ever; so, she wants to meet him and decide if she's even interested in a romance with him, and if she's not then it doesn't matter that they are supposedly potential soulmates.

3 When she meets him, she realizes the soulmates thing is real, but she finds out he doesn't want kids. She's not willing to remain childless, and feels it would be both unkind and unwise to pressure an unwilling man to become a father.

4 She decides to leave him in peace, because even though it would be sad and a bit painful to walk away from a potential soulmate, starting a relationship they would likely both be unhappy in would be worse. She heads to a bar to fin a willing one night stand to sire her child.

5. But, she discovers she can't make herself go through having someone else's child. This is because her soul recognizes the LI as her soulmate and is rejecting a poor substitute. So she thinks to herself, how can she make both her and the LI happy? And the only way to do that is for her to have his child yet him to not become a parent. The rest snowballs from there, until at the end of the story the secret comes out and they finally communicate and realize there is a better compromise possible. I don't personally think any of this counts as rationalization, but you're welcome to feel differently.

That all looks kind of exactly like what I said - it's all entirely self-centered, all simply about what she wants and then how she's rationalizing to twist some justification for doing whatever to anyone in order that she gets exactly what she wants.

It's pathological.

She wants, she wants, she wants - she discovers he doesn't want, but she's "not willing" to not get what she wants, so she tells herself it'll make him happy to do exactly what he doesn't want, and lie to him about it, but that it'll make him happy because she's sparing him the truth. That's completely nonsensical.

It's like saying 'well, he's a vegan, but I want meat, so I'll just make a meat dish and lie and tell him it's vegan, and I'll actually be making him happy, because I'm sparing him the knowledge that he ate meat, which would upset him. I am so good to be making him happy like that.'

Which eclipses that it'd make him happy to NOT steal his sperm since she knows he doesn't want kids, or NOT put meat in his food.

She won't take that path though, because she's entirely self-centered and sitting at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy unable to see the top from where she is, she's so immature. So she'll do whatever gets her what she wants, and find a convoluted rationalization.
 

Marian Perera

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You are factually wrong

That's an assertion, not a fact. I think I've demonstrated some glaring moral issues with the philosophy you've been arguing for here.

It's completely irrelevant to romance at this point, and you seem upset, which combines badly with online discussion.

I'm not upset at all - this isn't even close to the spirited debates I used to have on another board. Perhaps you're mistaking my disgust for voyeurism and child pornography (whether the women/children know about it or not) with my being upset?
 

sunandshadow

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I'm not upset at all - this isn't even close to the spirited debates I used to have on another board. Perhaps you're mistaking my disgust for voyeurism and child pornography (whether the women/children know about it or not) with my being upset?
Perhaps I am. It would be a short step from being disgusted with activities you consider crimes to being disgusted with me because I don't consider them crimes. And of course on my side it would be a short step from imagining someone was disgusted with me to me feeling honor-bound to fight in defense of the idea that I am not deserving of disgust.
But it's kind and wise to deceive him and use his body for a purpose to which he has not consented?

That's going to be the sticking-point for a lot of readers.
Yeah, that's been pretty well established.


I don't find this "her soul only wants her to have a baby with one man, whether he likes it or not" part logical at all.

If her soul's making the decisions, why doesn't it decide to adopt a baby instead? Or would her soul reject any baby who's not carrying the MMC's DNA?
When the concept of soulmates, which is somewhere between lust and love, all about instincts, hormones, and the subconscious, comes into the picture, should that kind of logic really be expected? If we set the fantasy terminology aside, we could say she has a crush or fixation on him and by contrast other men seem unacceptable for a whole range of purposes, including sex, marriage, and her committing to and investing herself in their genetic contribution. More simply, she is convinced on a deep level that all other men are inferior to this one, and though she tries to change or overrule this feeling, that attempt fails. And really, her subconscious, or soul, has the right idea while her rational mind that wants to walk away form her soulmate and never see him again has the wrong idea.
 

sunandshadow

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That all looks kind of exactly like what I said - it's all entirely self-centered, all simply about what she wants and then how she's rationalizing to twist some justification for doing whatever to anyone in order that she gets exactly what she wants.

It's pathological.

She wants, she wants, she wants - she discovers he doesn't want, but she's "not willing" to not get what she wants, so she tells herself it'll make him happy to do exactly what he doesn't want, and lie to him about it, but that it'll make him happy because she's sparing him the truth. That's completely nonsensical.

It's like saying 'well, he's a vegan, but I want meat, so I'll just make a meat dish and lie and tell him it's vegan, and I'll actually be making him happy, because I'm sparing him the knowledge that he ate meat, which would upset him. I am so good to be making him happy like that.'

Which eclipses that it'd make him happy to NOT steal his sperm since she knows he doesn't want kids, or NOT put meat in his food.

She won't take that path though, because she's entirely self-centered and sitting at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy unable to see the top from where she is, she's so immature. So she'll do whatever gets her what she wants, and find a convoluted rationalization.
I think it would be more directly comparable to the guy being a vegan and the girl hiding meat in her own food so he wouldn't judge her for eating what she wanted to eat. That's not pathological nor immature, though it's a gray area between tact and neurotic insecurity or fear of conflict. Unless you want to argue that maturity and insecurity are incompatible. There's a point there, but in my experience more than 60% of adults are insecure, so it might be an unreasonably high standard for maturity.
 

sohalt

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But the whole soulmate-stuff is such an obviously contrived, facile way to rationalize this questionable behavior... It's just like deus-ex-machina - you, the author, making it too easy for your heroine.

That's maybe another thing to consider when it comes to manipulation in terms of art... the audience quite appreciates a certain degree of it (mundus vult decipi....), but it shouldn't be too blatant. "Man merkt die Absicht und ist verstimmt" (One notices the intention and is put off.)

Consistency is not necessarily a merit of a moral philosophy. The most hideous ideolgies have been fairly consistent in their way - certainly not less consistent than less hideous ones. The more reductive, the more shallow one's understanding of the world, the easier it is to keep things consistent.
 

Marian Perera

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Perhaps I am. It would be a short step from being disgusted with activities you consider crimes to being disgusted with me because I don't consider them crimes.

I think we should stick to discussing the points that have been raised in the thread, rather than speculating on what we might personally feel for each other.

When the concept of soulmates, which is somewhere between lust and love, all about instincts, hormones, and the subconscious, comes into the picture, should that kind of logic really be expected?

Then it seems like the FMC is the non-falsifiable hypothesis. When you want her to be logical, she's logical. When you want her to be ruled by her "soul", she goes down a "the soul wants what it wants" path. There's no consistency.
 

Stacia Kane

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I'm gonna say we're done here, folks, and thank you all for your reasoned and calm replies.

Sunandshadow, I think your questions have been answered: whatever you may believe about how logical, reasonable, and moral your MC's actions or thoughts are, a wide cross-section of people strongly won't and don't agree, and will find terms like "rape culture" and "violation" and "reprehensible" flitting through their minds as they read.

I suppose your challenge will be to somehow convince your readers that your MC is indeed a decent person. SYW might be a good place to post some excerpts and see how it goes.


Either way, thanks again to all who participated.
 
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