Question for typographers about widows

Al Stevens · Feb 4, 2013

The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst, page 43

2.4.3 Never begin a page with the last line of a multi-line paragraph.

Widows. I see this rule -- he did say never -- being broken in a few contemporary print books from well-known publishers. One such book from Warner Books has a boatload of widows, some of them being single words.

I have the 2nd edition of Elements... from the late 1990s.

Is this a rule that's been relaxed? If so, why? It seems reasonable to me.

Tettsuo · Feb 4, 2013

I don't think it's rule that's been relaxed, just not always adhered to. Maybe it was too much to work the fix? Maybe it was a lazy designer? Maybe they just didn't care? Maybe it was changed from one size to another and not redesigned to accomodate the new book size? Who knows.

Whatever the reason, I wouldn't repeat their mistake. Widows and ophans are very unappealing, and I plan to do everything I can to eliminate every single one.

Al Stevens · Feb 4, 2013

About orphans, Bringhurst says:

...they need not trouble the typographer.

MaggieDana · Feb 4, 2013

In print books, widows (dreadful terminlogy, but we're stuck with it) are ugly and unacceptable to most typesetters; orphans not so much. We do the best we can to balance facing page spreads while avoiding widows (always) and compromising on orphans.

This is for PRINT layout, not ebooks.

Ebook text is dynamic and reflowable, depending on the font size chosen by the ebook's user. Widows and orphans happen in ebooks, as do lack of hyphenation or bad hyphenation and loose lines. I have much faith that the ebook technology (HTML) will improve, and very soon.

But for print, widows are a 'no no,' orphans are a last ditch resort when all else (kerning, letterspacing, etc.) fails to correct the layout problem, and the end result must be pleasing for the reader.

That's all that matters.

Torgo · Feb 4, 2013

If they bothered you enough to ask the question, then there aren't too many good excuses springing to mind. Text corrections where they only resupplied two spreads? Scratching my head. The only other plausible explanations involve a combination of a bad typesetter and a bad editor. (Before karma decides to pay a visit, I should point out I've been the latter from time to time. I'm responsible for my share of widows and orphans.)

Al Stevens · Feb 4, 2013

Torgo said:
If they bothered you enough to ask the question, then there aren't too many good excuses springing to mind.

The widows and orphans didn't bother me. The presence of the rule alongside blatant ignorance of the rule by publishers of note is why I asked. I wondered whether the rule had become an outdated convention.

Torgo said:
(Before karma decides to pay a visit, I should point out I've been the latter from time to time. I'm responsible for my share of widows and orphans.)

I feel an Al Capone joke coming on.

Thanks, all.

Al Stevens · Feb 4, 2013

MaggieDana said:
Widows and orphans happen in ebooks, as do lack of hyphenation or bad hyphenation and loose lines. I have much faith that the ebook technology (HTML) will improve, and very soon.

I doubt that there's much you can add to the HTML specification to address those problems. It would have to happen in each device's rendering software. And I agree, it ought to be addressed, but I don't see the manufacturers of those devices caring about it all that much. Me of little faith.

Thanks for your help.

Old Hack · Feb 5, 2013

Al Stevens said:
The widows and orphans didn't bother me. The presence of the rule alongside blatant ignorance of the rule by publishers of note is why I asked. I wondered whether the rule had become an outdated convention.

I read a few books--two or three novels a week, usually, plus whatever non-fiction stuff I'm currently working on--and I've not seen any evidence that this rule has been relaxed.

Have you seen multiple examples of this in all the books that you've read recently? If so, I'm surprised. Because it certainly doesn't match my experience.

Al Stevens · Feb 5, 2013

Old Hack said:
Have you seen multiple examples of this in all the books that you've read recently?

No. Only in a few. But then, most of the print edition books I read are older. (Most new stuff I read is e-books.) When I saw it in some more recent books, I thought maybe younger typographers were erring on the side of convenience.

I am happy to learn that the old ways have not gone by the wayside.

I'm curious, Jane. Overall, how is the quality of typography in the print editions that SP'd authors send you to review?

Thank you.

Old Hack · Feb 5, 2013

Al Stevens said:
I'm curious, Jane. Overall, how is the quality of typography in the print editions that SP'd authors send you to review?

Thank you.

It's dreadful. I can't recall a single book which didn't contain multiple errors.

Laer Carroll · Feb 5, 2013

This is the kind of issue where there is no absolute black-and-white answer. It’s where you have to use your best judgment rather than robotically follow rules.

If the single line is on an odd-numbered (right-side or “recto”) page, I keep it as is. My reasoning is that it’s fairly easy for most reader to skip from the bottom of the left-hand side (“verso”) page to the top of the right-hand side page.

If the single line is at the top of the left-hand side of the page, I try to see if it causes some kind of cognitive or esthetic problem in most readers. If it does, I go to the previous page and adjust vertical leading to put it on that page.

This introduces the problem that the number of lines on the right side of the previous page is different from those on the left-hand side. Here again you have to use judgment. Typically if the number of lines is large most people’s eyes can’t tell if the left page is 43 and the right page is 44 lines in length.

Even so, what I do is try to adjust both pages to have the same leading. This can lead to other problems, of course!

See why typography is not an easy job?!

Old Hack · Feb 5, 2013

Laer Carroll said:
This is the kind of issue where there is no absolute black-and-white answer. It’s where you have to use your best judgment rather than robotically follow rules.

Another reason why typesetting software can't equal the skill of a good typesetter.

Al Stevens · Feb 6, 2013

Laer Carroll said:
This introduces the problem that the number of lines on the right side of the previous page is different from those on the left-hand side. Here again you have to use judgment. Typically if the number of lines is large most people’s eyes can’t tell if the left page is 43 and the right page is 44 lines in length.

Even so, what I do is try to adjust both pages to have the same leading. This can lead to other problems, of course!

I saw in one book that they just allowed some spreads to have one fewer line on each page than most spreads without changing the leading for a consistent bottom line baseline. The leading was consistent, and the reader is (I suppose) less likely to notice the difference in line counts when turning pages.

I tried both techniques on the same sample of text. I cannot decide which I prefer. The change in page-length leading is noticeable when flipping a page back and forth on the screen. I'd have to get it on paper to see how that looks.

The effect is indeed more noticeable the fewer lines there are per page. I'm using 35 lines/page, and that might be why I see it so readily. The leading difference is almost half a point.

WriterBN · Feb 7, 2013

I debated the same issue (consistent baseline alignment vs justified vertical text on spreads). In the end, I decided I liked the justified vertical look better.

Charlie Horse · Feb 8, 2013

There are several ways a typographer/book compositor can balance pages while avoiding widows and orphans. Adjusting leading (line spacing) is NOT one of them. Running pages 1 line short or 1 line long as well as adjusting word spacing are among the most common. This is why typography is a skill, not something anyone can do without training.

Torgo · Feb 8, 2013

Charlie Horse said:
There are several ways a typographer/book compositor can balance pages while avoiding widows and orphans. Adjusting leading (line spacing) is NOT one of them.

Hahaha I missed that someone had done that! Really? Hahahahaaaaa!

Deleted member 42 · Feb 8, 2013

Tracking, dropping or picking up a line—and often you can track on a previous page to pick up or drop a short line, which solves the problem.

Just don't over track. The goal is to make the text more readable, not less.

Al Stevens · Feb 8, 2013

Charlie Horse said:
There are several ways a typographer/book compositor can balance pages while avoiding widows and orphans. Adjusting leading (line spacing) is NOT one of them. Running pages 1 line short or 1 line long as well as adjusting word spacing are among the most common.

Thanks, CH. That's what I wanted to know.

Question for typographers about widows

Al Stevens

Tettsuo

Al Stevens

MaggieDana

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

Al Stevens

Al Stevens

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Al Stevens

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Al Stevens

WriterBN

Charlie Horse

Speaking in metaphors

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

Deleted member 42

Al Stevens