Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters

[regdog]

I saw an ad for the new movie Hansel and Gretel witch hunters today and was pretty pissed. It infuriates me that it is so acceptable to mock and degrade witches like this. There would be outrage if a movie came out degrading and debasing other religions like this.

[alleycat]

Maybe they only hunt bad witches.

[regdog]

That's part of the problem. Calling some witched good and some bad. Those who truly practice the craft would never harm. I've had people ask me "Am I a good witch or bad witch" "Will I put a curse on someone for them" There is so much misinformation about withces outt here movies like this just heap more BS on the pile.

The wiccan rede "And it harm none do as ye will"

[Rhoda Nightingale]

I was pissed too, but mainly because it looks like a shitty retread of Terry Gilliam's The Brothers Grimm.

[Foinah]

There is no such thing as a good witch or a bad witch. My mom co-opted the Ghostbusters line: If someone asks you if you are a good witch or a bad witch, YOU SAY YES! Heh. It was to make the point that one must accept the duality in our nature -- we are both. There is no good without bad and no bad without good. You choose the path that you walk and strive for the An it do no harm. We are healers of the mind, body and soul (or your relative belief system regarding spirit).

I can see how insulting this movie is. It's based on the Grimm precept of witches as nasty, child-eating, foul-faced hags and harkens to the early 19th century when witches became campy. But I watched the trailer and noted the subtext that perhaps not all witches are bad and I think (being the clever (double ha) horror writer that I am) that perhaps the blondie in the clip may indeed be the good witch and that Hansel may have his views changed.

But I get it. If a film came out about a murderous, rampaging priest, rabbi, or imam then there would be quite a hulabaloo. It's sad, but in society witches are still fair game. There is more acceptance, certainly, but it's something that isn't going to change for a while.

It's a splatter fest, campy ala Raimi, fantasy romp. I'm not negating your outrage, Reg, not at all. But I don't think it will harken in an era of new witch hatred.

When folks meet real witches I find they are disappointed that we are so very normal. I don't appreciate the subgroup of pagans who feel it necessary to go out in public draped in black robes with huge pentacles and goopy, thick black eyeliner. To me that does more to further the stereotype of whakadoodle witches than any film. But that is the path those folks choose to walk and I must respect that.

Hugs, and I'm sorry this got under your skin. I just smile and say, "Silly monkey. Children aren't very tasty at all. I prefer pork chops."

[Rhoda Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Foinah

It's a splatter fest, campy ala Raimi, fantasy romp. I'm not negating your outrage, Reg, not at all. But I don't think it will harken in an era of new witch hatred.

Raimi?? Dude. Now that's insulting. More like Uwe Boll on a good day, maybe. Meh, I kid, but yeah, this waste of celluloid pings my Horror Movie Buff crap-o-meter harder than my Bad Pagan Stereotypes one.

Anyways, I agree with your post. The movie looks pretty bad, but I don't think anyone with sense nowadays believes real witches look anything like the depictions in the movie, anymore than they believe Hansel and Gretel were real people who hunted them with crossbows and *gag* American accents. (How dare they. At least most faux-European actors pretend to be British.)

ETA: Also, I would totally read a story about a murderous, rampaging priest, because it sounds kind of awesome.

[regdog]

It is the idea that society says it is okay to portray witches being so horrible that is part of what is grating me. Like you said, Foinah the backlash of portraying any other religious person or group in such a derogatory light would be huge. But since it's "just witches" meh, it's okay and funny.

I don't mind witched and pagans dressing in traditional robes. I look at it much the same as Jewish men wearing yarmulkes, Sikhs wearing turbans and other religions wearing their traditional garb.

And I have to agree 100%, aside for the witch insult, the movie looks just awful. Maybe it will be bad enough to keep people away.

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by regdog

I don't mind witched and pagans dressing in traditional robes. I look at it much the same as Jewish men wearing yarmulkes, Sikhs wearing turbines and other religions wearing their traditional garb.

Heh. It's not the folks in traditional robes that bug me, it's the ones who go soooooo far and purposely try to tweak the freak meter that make us look bad IMO. We've all met someone like that

I think mostly it's the extra thick, gooped on, over-the-top eyeliner that gets me every time! "Yeah, hi there, yeah, merry we meet, yeah...no...I don't wanna feel your chakkras. Mmmm'kay. Buh-bye. Yeah...Bright blessings, blah, blah, blah...." And that's just the guys The women just scare me. Snerk. cackle™
"you have WHAT pierced in the shape of a pentacle? GAH!!!!!"

[regdog]

Feel their chakkras? Eep.

[Sarpedon]

Apparently, there is a second witch hunter movie coming out this year.

"the Seventh Son," with Jeff Bridges and Julianne Moore. (Moore plays the witch)

[Quentin Nokov]

Originally Posted by Foinah

There is no such thing as a good witch or a bad witch. My mom co-opted the Ghostbusters line: If someone asks you if you are a good witch or a bad witch, YOU SAY YES! Heh. It was to make the point that one must accept the duality in our nature -- we are both. There is no good without bad and no bad without good. You choose the path that you walk and strive for the An it do no harm. We are healers of the mind, body and soul (or your relative belief system regarding spirit).

That's like good Christians and bad Christians. I've met Christians who claim themselves to be good and yet they use every vulgar term, a few I've never heard before, they're difficult, snotty, promiscuous. They claim to live by the bible and yet they don't live by it at all.

No one's perfect to err is human, but I hate the 'good' Christians who are nothing but pieces of %^^&$##%**



Note: I'm a Christian not a warlock/wiccan/pagan etc. Just adding to your comment that no one is good and no one is really bad.

[Sarpedon]

Hansel and Gretel seem to be doing well at the box office, despite everyone agreeing it sucks.

[Witch_turtle]

I saw this thread and it really drew my interest. Forgive me, I'm fairly ignorant about witches/wicca, but for me, I guess, fantasy witches and real witches have always been kept in separate categories...like how we have zombie movies and mummy movies despite the fact that burial and mummification are real traditions for real human beings. I feel like a lot of real-life things (that ought to be respected) have been turned into "Halloween monsters," alongside fictional creatures like Frankenstein's monster and mermaids and such. But the modern day fantasy is so far removed from its origins/the real thing. I just never thought of it as an issue before, although I can also see where you're coming from.

I'm just incredibly curious about this now. Can someone explain the issue to me in more depth? I totally get the whole being treated as a human being thing, but how far does it go? Are Halloween decorations/kids dressed up as witches offensive? The Wizard of Oz? Hocus Pocus? Sabrina the Teenage Witch?

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by Witch_turtle

I saw this thread and it really drew my interest. Forgive me, I'm fairly ignorant about witches/wicca, but for me, I guess, fantasy witches and real witches have always been kept in separate categories...like how we have zombie movies and mummy movies despite the fact that burial and mummification are real traditions for real human beings. I feel like a lot of real-life things (that ought to be respected) have been turned into "Halloween monsters," alongside fictional creatures like Frankenstein's monster and mermaids and such. But the modern day fantasy is so far removed from its origins/the real thing. I just never thought of it as an issue before, although I can also see where you're coming from.

I'm just incredibly curious about this now. Can someone explain the issue to me in more depth? I totally get the whole being treated as a human being thing, but how far does it go? Are Halloween decorations/kids dressed up as witches offensive? The Wizard of Oz? Hocus Pocus? Sabrina the Teenage Witch?

That is an excellent question!
And I'm quite sure there will be differing opinions.
Personally I'm amused by the stereotype and collect items that feature witches with big warts, green skin, and silly attributes. Witchcraft has been such a societal bugaboo for so long that true practitioners approach the stereotype and intolerant attitude of folks in different ways.
As society changes and becomes more tolerant and progressive, a lot of witches feel comfortable coming out of the broom closet. The stigma of the evil witch that eats babies and worships the devil is offensive and with positive representations of the craft, common folk see that it is a religion of peace and healing. Personally I have no issue with the movie. It is what it is.
Wizard of Oz had both the Wicked Witches of the East and West, and then Glinda the Good as a counterbalance.
Snow White and Sleeping Beauty had evil queens who were witches. The Brother's Grimm laced their tales with cultural norms of their time.
When you go to a film or read a book, you are doing so to escape reality with either fear, fantasy, humour or drama.
Witches are part of the cultural bugaboo of centuries past --
All things supernatural still send an electric tingle through the communal psyche in this modern age.
To conquer fear you dress it up and mock it.
To some practitioners the constant portrayal of the wiccan/pagan/alternate path as evil and bad is like a slap in the face.
Halloween is Samhain -- one of our high Sabbats. I have no issue with the decorations or costumes at all. In fact it adds to the communal spirit and enrgy of the holiday. If a tv show paints a witch in a negative light, just for shock value, then I might take issue. But being a bad person or bad character is the focus...the witch thing just adds to the ratings.
When you see something offensive, then you take a step back.
I made the comment earlier that if a film or book featured a crazed Judeo-Christian or Muslim or Hindu group running amok and being awful then there might be backlash from the majority of mainstream people who belong to those religions, defending their faith or their ideals. But...there are movies and shows that poke fun equally (Father Ted, Vicar of Dibley and American shows I'm sure).
The pagan path is still a minority despite the origins as the first faith. In some communities witches are feared and reviled. In some communities witches are accepted.

I hope this answers some of your questions.
And welcome to the Pagan area! Nice to meet you

[Witch_turtle]

Thanks for the great response Foinah.

I certainly wasn't expecting to stumble across something so deeply fascinating (and new to think about) when I woke up this morning.

[Foinah]

Originally Posted by Witch_turtle

Thanks for the great response Foinah.

I certainly wasn't expecting to stumble across something so deeply fascinating (and new to think about) when I woke up this morning.

Absolutely!
I always have my light on and love great questions ~

[Foinah]

Here is the wiki link for a full plot synopsis of Hansel and Gretel -- Witch Hunters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansel_..._Witch_Hunters

I was right. The blondie in the previews is indeed a good witch.
It's fun to be a writer Teehee

[SWest]

Originally Posted by Quentin Nokov

That's like good Christians and bad Christians. I've met Christians who claim themselves to be good and yet they use every vulgar term, a few I've never heard before, they're difficult, snotty, promiscuous. They claim to live by the bible and yet they don't live by it at all.

No one's perfect to err is human, but I hate the 'good' Christians who are nothing but pieces of %^^&$##%**



Note: I'm a Christian not a warlock/wiccan/pagan etc. Just adding to your comment that no one is good and no one is really bad.

The problem being that The Witch in specific has been warped by sky-god religious sects into The Ultimate Evil.

This is not the same as evaluating individuals on their own merits.

When the dominant culture continues to propagate the multiple errors in this particular Spooky-Wants-to-Hurt-You version of the Wise Crone Archetype, it propagates a grave error.

It denigrates what She represents in Her original forms and functions.

[regdog]

Originally Posted by Witch_turtle

Thanks for the great response Foinah.

I certainly wasn't expecting to stumble across something so deeply fascinating (and new to think about) when I woke up this morning.

There are lots of great books out there that explain about being a witch and witchcraft. Llewellyn
has quite a few and A&E did a fantastic biography of the Witch. Periodically it airs on the Bio Channel. There is a DVD of ii too.

Originally Posted by SWest

The problem being that The Witch in specific has been warped by sky-god religious sects into The Ultimate Evil.

This is not the same as evaluating individuals on their own merits.

When the dominant culture continues to propagate the multiple errors in this particular Spooky-Wants-to-Hurt-You version of the Wise Crone Archetype, it propagates a grave error.

It denigrates what She represents in Her original forms and functions.

That's my big complaint. Society has no problem, almost welcomes, ugly, nasty portrayals of the Witch. We are the one religious group that is actively degraded and denigrated for popular entertainment.

[SWest]

Originally Posted by regdog

...

That's my big complaint. Society has no problem, almost welcomes, ugly, nasty portrayals of the Witch. We are the one religious group that is actively degraded and denigrated for popular entertainment.

In their original Dire forms, these Evil Queen/Stepmother tales were political in nature. Baba Yaga morphed from Her original wisdom teaching tales into the hag who eats children in the woods.

Women were meant to understand via these rewrites that their autonomy was an affront to men's divine appointment as the boss of everything. Regardless of ability.

Disney's evil queen portrayals play into all the modernized stereotypes (even Jafar has been drawn to echo the type):

nature = bad

dark woman = bad

sexy woman = bad

old woman = bad

smart, capable, independent = bad, bad, bad

The one archetype remaining for young girls and women to aspire to is the (innocent, ignorant, acquiesing) virgin. Culturally, once a woman has been given over to the ownership of a man, her public life is essentially over ("happily ever after").

We need new writers.

[Melanie Dawn]

Hollywood will never portray witches correctly, so i just shrug it off... i hear it's a crap movie anyway.

[regdog]

Originally Posted by SWest

In their original Dire forms, these Evil Queen/Stepmother tales were political in nature. Baba Yaga morphed from Her original wisdom teaching tales into the hag who eats children in the woods.

Women were meant to understand via these rewrites that their autonomy was an affront to men's divine appointment as the boss of everything. Regardless of ability.

Disney's evil queen portrayals play into all the modernized stereotypes (even Jafar has been drawn to echo the type):

nature = bad

dark woman = bad

sexy woman = bad

old woman = bad

smart, capable, independent = bad, bad, bad

The one archetype remaining for young girls and women to aspire to is the (innocent, ignorant, acquiesing) virgin. Culturally, once a woman has been given over to the ownership of a man, her public life is essentially over ("happily ever after").

One reason I really don't like the "traditional" Disney princesses. Swooning and mooning waiting for their prince to rescue them.

**snort**

I prefer Mulan. She didn't need anyone to save her, she rode out and saved China.

We need new writers.

We're here, we just need to be heard.

[skunkmelon]

I went to see the movie and it was horrible. The witches were in the style of the new creepy bad thing now in horror movies. They chittered and made other roaring bug noises and of course did the "tip your head while staring creepily at the victim" thing that all zombies and other horrors seem to do in movies nowadays.

I was hoping it might be a fun movie like Van Helsing but there were a lot of spots where it looked like it was trying to be funny and failed. It wasn't even campy funny.

Personally I was more offended by Season of the Witch than this movie. This one was just eye rolling-ly predictable and lame. (The previews for the new G.I. Joe movie were the best part about the whole thing! )

[Bartholomew]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't self-identifying as a witch a relatively recent phenomenon? The people accused of witchcraft and sub-sequentially burned to death and hung through European history were not Wiccan by a modern understanding. For all intents and purposes, wasn't "Witch" in the time of the original Hansel & Gretel a synonym for sorceress?

Etymology of Witch.

"Þe paynyms ... cleped þe iij kyngis Magos, þat is to seye wicchis."

It's kind of a kick-ass word. It seems to have perjorated and recovered at least twice, if one accepts the belief that it has roots in the Gothic word meaning "Holy." That would mean the word has changed meaning about like this:

Meaning Priestess, Gothic era => Meaning Magician, usually evil in Old English => Adjectival form meaning Beautiful around 1700 => Evil Again (Salem nonsense) => Meaning a type of modern pagan.

I haven't seen the movie and don't intend to. It made my Terrible Movie Senses twitch during previews. There's an innate absurdity to the idea of Hansel & Gretel as an action movie it that the makers just didn't have the understanding to see. This is the sort of movie I used to invent when making fun of other movies.

And while I'm stirring a bit of trouble to suggest that identifying as a witch is a recent phenomenon, it's been going on more than long enough for the makers of this movie to understand the new meaning of the word. There was really no excuse for this thing to get past the spec script phase.

[blacbird]

I was offended by the trailer primarily because it looks bloody awful. I'll go rent Ishtar from Blockbuster before I see this atrocity.

caw