Is there absolute quality?

Beachgirl · Aug 29, 2012

Rhoda Nightingale said:
I have had that feeling--yes. Numerous times. But just as often, I've found a work that others hold up as something of "quality" and I think, "Really? I mean . . . really? Are you kidding me?" I reckon we've all been there once or twice.

Yep. Several years ago, hubby and I were at an art museum to see a Renior exhibit and we walked by a very prominently displayed painting that stopped us in our tracks. Not because we were drawn to it or because it was sparkly or said "Hey, stop and look at me!".

It was red. Not shades of red. A 10'x10' canvas painted one shade of red. Just red.

We kept looking at it thinking we had to be missing something. Was there a pattern that could only be seen at a certain angle? Nope. Did the brushstrokes make some kind of design? Nope. Did you have to wear special glasses to reveal some kind of super secret sparkly image. Nope.

It was just red. We looked at each other and went :Shrug:

.

Susan Coffin · Aug 29, 2012

Absolutely, and I don't think it's about taste. It's a book, entertainer, piece of art that clearly surpasses all other of the same types of work.

LaceWing · Aug 29, 2012

Bebop said:
Ok, interesting. But are those qualities in the beholder's eye as well?

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html -- See aesthetics.

I've read John Dewey's Art As Experience and found it to be absorbing.

What I consider first when I consider qualities (Good, True, Beautiful) is that they arise at the conjunction of things.

You could also look into Narratology, which tries to analyze the contents of story in the way Musicology analyzes music.

gettingby · Aug 29, 2012

There is good writing and there is bad writing, you can say it is subjective, but I think there are pretty clear extremes. I worked as an editor where I was hired to make this call. Honestly, it wasn't that hard. Now before everyone tells me I am wrong, I have colleague who would agree with me that yes there is could writing and yes there is bad writing. Sometimes it is subjective, but that is not always the case.

jjdebenedictis · Aug 29, 2012

Maybe there is absolute quality.

Unfortunately, humans are not capable of recognizing it, at least not all the time or in every form that quality can take. A person who knows good chamber music likely has trouble judging what constitutes good heavy metal.

Oh, and all vegetables are heavenly if you put enough cheese on them.

butterfly · Aug 30, 2012

Rhoda Nightingale said:
For the record, cauliflower freaks me out. Looks like brains. Or broccoli that's having an off day.

lmao - had to tell you. This made my day. Will have to get back to you on the rest - have to leave for work but will be thinking of freaky cauli all day. Thanks for the laugh!

Torgo · Aug 30, 2012

Beachgirl said:
Yep. Several years ago, hubby and I were at an art museum to see a Renior exhibit and we walked by a very prominently displayed painting that stopped us in our tracks. Not because we were drawn to it or because it was sparkly or said "Hey, stop and look at me!".

It was red. Not shades of red. A 10'x10' canvas painted one shade of red. Just red.

We kept looking at it thinking we had to be missing something. Was there a pattern that could only be seen at a certain angle? Nope. Did the brushstrokes make some kind of design? Nope. Did you have to wear special glasses to reveal some kind of super secret sparkly image. Nope.

It was just red. We looked at each other and went .

Ha, see, I like that sort of thing. A particular shade of colour hung just so, in such and such a room, can have a very pleasing effect.

I liked this at the Tate Modern (it's actually chequered, but you have to squint a bit)

Buffysquirrel · Aug 30, 2012

Bebop said:
Then why do "we" agree on so many things?

Psychologists have conducted experiments in which a group contained several people primed to give obviously wrong answers to simple questions. In the majority of cases, people who knew the answer was wrong nonetheless conformed to the group.

Ken · Aug 30, 2012

... it changes for each work in question. There is a good for a particular work along with a bad. The same holds for another work. What's good for one work isn't necessarily so for another. Each work more or less has to be evaluated on its own terms. If you try to use a common yardstick you're going to make mistakes.

shaldna · Aug 30, 2012

Bebop said:
In writing, in fiction, non-fiction, in music, in films, etc.? Is there absolute good and bad? We say that taste is subjective. One man's poison, kind of thing, and yet a large % of people seem to agree on certain absolutes. What's your take on it? If you believe that there are certain qualities that make some writing superior to other writing, can you list some? Really like to have a better take on this. Thanks.

Taste is subjective. I completely agree with that.

However, I also feel that there is good writing and there is bad writing on a technically competent scale.

But, just because writing is technically good it doesn't necessarily mean that any given person will like it.

Don't confuse style with foundations.

NeuroFizz said:
I really like fresh asparagus. Not everyone does. Listing the qualities of asparagus excellence will meet with much discussion and disagreement.

Yes, but there is 'good' asparagus and there is 'bad' asparagus.

What you do with the asparagus is another matter altogether. You can't make 'bad' asparagus taste good no matter what you do. But 'good' asparagus already had everything going for it before you even start.

Phaeal · Aug 30, 2012

Cauliflower also comes in green, gold and purple. The purple rocks.

Asparagus is the god of vegetables. Except for the potato. The potato is the god-emperor of vegetables.

In the pepper arena, Anaheims and poblanos are duking it out, but the chipotle is winning the marketing game -- look at all the labels on which it's now trumpeted!

Zombies much prefer a nice fat and juicy thigh to brains. "Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh" just doesn't sound as cool.

As for taste, everyone's is subjective except mine.

Phaeal · Aug 30, 2012

jjdebenedictis said:
Oh, and all vegetables are heavenly if you put enough cheese on them.

Yup, and if zombies really had their druthers, they'd say and eat nothing but "Cheeeeeeeeeeeeese." They just have this weird need to appear bad-ass.

aruna · Aug 30, 2012

I believe in absolute quality. (I don't agree with the term, but I know what you're trying to say.)
Which is not the same as taste, which is subjective.
Two different things altogether.

I might not like the book Wuthering Heights. (I don't.)
But I believe it is a book of objective quality.
When I was young I did not like the music of Mozart.
When I grew up I learnt to recognise its objective quality.

Maze Runner · Aug 30, 2012

gettingby said:
There is good writing and there is bad writing, you can say it is subjective, but I think there are pretty clear extremes. I worked as an editor where I was hired to make this call. Honestly, it wasn't that hard. Now before everyone tells me I am wrong, I have colleague who would agree with me that yes there is could writing and yes there is bad writing. Sometimes it is subjective, but that is not always the case.

I'd be interested to know if you and your colleague often/always agreed on what specific works were good and were not? Or did you not have occasion to look at the same works?

Maze Runner · Aug 30, 2012

aruna said:
I believe in absolute quality. (I don't agree with the term, but I know what you're trying to say.)
Which is not the same as taste, which is subjective.
Two different things altogether.

I might not like the book Wuthering Heights. (I don't.)
But I believe it is a book of objective quality.
When I was young I did not like the music of Mozart.
When I grew up I learnt to recognise its objective quality.

"Objective quality" is much closer to what I'm talking about. Thank you.

Yes, personal taste as distinguished from objective quality. I have a soft spot, for instance, for books, movies, songs, that I know aren't really all that well done. I also have no interest in other works of art that though I recognize their quality, are just not for me.

It seems this thread is split about 50/50 between those that agree with you and with me, and those that do not. I appreciate all the responses.

sunandshadow · Aug 30, 2012

Bebop said:
Then why do "we" agree on so many things?

We don't, on our own. There's a lot of social pressure to repeat what you've heard someone else say rather than figure out what you feel on your own and say that. Humans have a strong urge to simplify and categorize the world, including by forcing others to follow whatever we perceive are "the rules" or "good taste".

Cyia · Aug 30, 2012

Bebop said:
In writing, in fiction, non-fiction, in music, in films, etc.? Is there absolute good and bad?

There's an absolute quality to grammar, but not content or style.

Torgo · Aug 30, 2012

Cyia said:
There's an absolute quality to grammar, but not content or style.

Even the 'absolute' values of grammar will change noticeably over time. They're still socially-constructed.

aruna · Aug 30, 2012

I believe that time is the test. Taste that is dependent on a trend changes over time. Objective qualtiy does not . It can be appreciated by a huge variety of people over the centuries.

As an example: David, Florence, Michaelangelo

Compared to Tracy Emin's Bed (Winner of the Turner Prize)

The first work of art has lasted centuries and been admired by millions of people. No taste is involved. It just is.

The second is a product of an age. It is seen as art by only a few, and in a few years people will be scratching their heads over the "why". This is taste.

It's the same in every discipline. There are only a few Shakespeare's, Beethovens etc. They set a standard.
I believe that objective art is something that simply strikes a common nerve in the human heart; a nerve that reacts and recognises perfect beauty and admires its physical expression through art.

I also recognise that this is only one little meaniingless opinion, and that others may disagree with me!

gettingby · Aug 30, 2012

Bebop said:
I'd be interested to know if you and your colleague often/always agreed on what specific works were good and were not? Or did you not have occasion to look at the same works?

Yes. We always agreed. I'm not saying that it is always clear, but for the years I worked at that place, it was.

blacbird · Aug 30, 2012

No.

Question answered. Carry on.

caw

Is there absolute quality?

Beachgirl

Not easily managed

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

LaceWing

gettingby

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

butterfly

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

Buffysquirrel

Ken

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Maze Runner

Maze Runner

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny