[Agency] WordWise Media Serivices

[Anjulee]

I was just wondering if anyone has dealt with them before and Steven Hutson. Or if anyone has any information (good or bad). I cannot find anything on them here.
Thanks in advance

[aliceshortcake]

Link: http://www.wordwisemedia.com/index.html

I can see several red flags here. Firstly, we are told that WWMS has signed deals with the following publishers: ASTD Press, Astraea Press, OakTara Publishers, Potomac Books and Thomas Nelson Publishers.

ASTD Press specializes in books on business and skills development. From their website:

ASTD Press welcomes proposals from prospective authors with new and innovative ideas that fit into our current publishing program...Key to the publisher and author relationship is a willingness to partner with ASTD Press to ensure your book reaches its intended audience and that the investment made by you and ASTD Press pays off...ASTD Press is happy to provide basic marketing support for your book through all its sales channels. However, the most critical element of your proposal is how you plan to market the book.

http://www.astd.org/Publications/Books/Submission-Guidelines.aspx

Dr Keith Barnes is the lucky WWMS client whose book Effective Management was recently 'picked up' by ASTD Press, but he clearly didn't need an agent at all - the publisher is a pay-to-play. This raises the question of what WWMS got out of the deal.

OakTara (formerly Capstone) has been featured on AW before (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54296). OakTara makes its lack of bookstore placement sound like a benefit:

Because books are printed as they are purchased (buyers receive their books within several days), there are fewer overhead costs. That’s good news to all authors, since they need not fear the “fiscal-year reduction” of stock and being told their book has not sold enough copies to stay in print.

Although OakTara provides a press kit, author's website and the usual POD marketing tips, at the end of the day their books will be left to sink or swim on Amazon and sales will probably be minimal. Again, what does an agent have to gain by submitting a client's work to a POD publisher?

Astraea Press also has its own AW thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218524), as does Potomac Books (http://www.potomacbooksinc.com/books/features.aspx). Astraea is an e-pub so you don't need an agent anyway; Potomac also accepts unagented submissions.

WWMS' first sale, Julie Zine Coleman's Crazy About Women, was to Thomas Nelson Publishing. From their website:

There are two paths for publishing your book: traditional and self-publishing.

The traditional path involves selecting a literary agent who can then submit your proposal to publishing houses such as Thomas Nelson.

Does this mean that Thomas Nelson (as opposed to its pay-to-play arm WestBow) accepts only agented submissions? If so, the company is the only one out of the five proudly listed by WWMS to do so. Which is rather odd when you bear in mind that Steve Hutson also says:

Fewer and fewer publishers will accept a manuscript or proposal directly from an unknown writer

thesedays; instead, they rely on literary agents to separate wheat from chaff and send them only
the best work that has been thoroughly vetted, edited, and properly formatted.

Actually, it's nothing short of miraculous that anyone manages to get published:

So what advantage do the publishers have left? It's a buyer's market! They get

to choose the writers they will work with. And make no mistake, they have plenty
of choices: According to one source, about 81 percent of all Americans (that's
243 million) say that want to write a book. Further, there are about six million manuscripts, proposals, and queries
circulating among American publishers and agents at any one time. If you want to get noticed in this competitive
marketplace you might as well sit around waiting to get struck by lightning, or win the Powerball Lottery, or get
drafted into the NFL.

I don't know how many of those six million items are manuscripts, but does Steve think that they all stand the same chance (or lack thereof) of being published?

As well as being a literary agency WWMS also offers editing services. In the words of Steve Hutson:

After completing the first draft of my first book, I didn't know where to turn next. So I

looked up the mailing addresses of a couple dozen random publishers on the Internet.
After all, one is just as good as the other (or so I thought). Surely, someone in this
group would see that I was offering them the chance of a lifetime. Naturally, they would
share my vision and offer me a generous contract. Right?

Wrong! Hutson was inundated by rejection letters. What to do next?

As it

happened, there was a large bookstore near my home. So I went in and asked if someone on their staff could offer a
professional evaluation of my manuscript. The owner pointed me to Bill, who happened to be a retired editor from
one of the major publishing houses. Maybe he could help.

The following morning, over pancakes and coffee, he told me all about the ins and outs of the publishing industry.
After 30 years in the business, he should know. My writing style was good, he said, and my grammar was better
than average. He was encouraging, yet gently admonished me that I had a lot to learn. Then he handed me the
business card of a professional editing service. Their fee wasn't cheap, and it took two weeks to complete. But after
a lifetime dreaming of a career as a writer, that was the best money I ever spent.

How did Hutson make the jump from editing to agenting?

WordWise Media Services started out in 2006 as a manuscript critique and editing service

for aspiring writers. In this capacity we tackled assignments on every subject from Bible
study to yoga to credit repair. And life was good.

Finally one day we received an email from a potential client who asked us to do something
we had never done before: To recruit writers for a series of books, and then pitch the
ideas to publishers. Certainly there are others more qualified for this assignment, we
thought. Happily, it turned out that we already knew most of the people we needed to
make this happen, and many responded favorably. With this newfound confidence we felt
emboldened to set up shop as a literary agency. And here we are.

This new frontier is exciting, and we've already seen a few small successes. But as we know, nothing in this business
happens quickly; waiting around for an advance check to pay the rent is roughly like herding cats: They come when
they're ready, not when you call. So for the foreseeable future, we will continue with the editing service.

The 'regular staff' of WWMS's editing service are Steve himself and Ruth Hutson:

Ruth Hutson is our fiction specialist. If you send us a novel

, either for representation or for

editing, she will be the one who works with you to make it the best it can be. She has been an
avid reader since early childhood, and won an honorable mention in a screenplay contest
sponsored by Reader’s Digest.

These really aren't the sort of qualifications I'd look for in an editor.

*I apologise for the crappy formatting of this post!*

[Anjulee]

Thank you so much Alice. I really appreciate the information.

[aliceshortcake]

Update: Thomas Nelson confirmed that they accept only agented submissions, so WordWise's sale of Crazy About Women was a genuine achievement.

[Steve H]

Originally Posted by aliceshortcake

1- Dr Keith Barnes is the lucky WWMS client whose book Effective Management was recently 'picked up' by ASTD Press, but he clearly didn't need an agent at all - the publisher is a pay-to-play.

2- OakTara (formerly Capstone) has been featured on AW before (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54296). OakTara makes its lack of bookstore placement sound like a benefit:

3- Again, what does an agent have to gain by submitting a client's work to a POD publisher?

4- Astraea is an e-pub so you don't need an agent anyway

I suppose I should be flattered that you've taken such an interest in my work.

1- Nope. We paid nothing to get pub'd by ASTD.

2- False argument. Bookstore placement is very rare these days. Only a small percentage of all books ever get onto store shelves. Successful book deals these days depend more and more on author participation.

3- It's called royalties, just like any book deal.

4- Another false argument. As with any book deal, an agent can negotiate a sweeter deal than the pub's boilerplate.

[Old Hack]

Originally Posted by Steve H

I suppose I should be flattered that you've taken such an interest in my work.

1- Nope. We paid nothing to get pub'd by ASTD.

That's good news. Because publishers and agents who charge authors anything for publication or representation aren't worth bothering about. That includes charging authors at the back end of publication, by requiring them to buy their own books, by the way.

However, I note that ASTD says this on its website:

Key to the publisher and author relationship is a willingness to partner with ASTD Press to ensure your book reaches its intended audience and that the investment made by you and ASTD Press pays off.

My bold. This is standard vanity press weasel-wording and if the authors concerned don't have to pay to publish, what's this talk about investment?

2- False argument. Bookstore placement is very rare these days. Only a small percentage of all books ever get onto store shelves. Successful book deals these days depend more and more on author participation.

Wrong; wrong; half-wrong; and wrong.

1) No it's not.

2) Bookshop placement is not rare for the books which sell in reasonable amounts, and for the sort of books which most people read.

3) Only a small percentage of all books have ever reached bookshop shelves, so this is not new. That's because only a small percentage of books have ever been appropriate for selling in bookshops: calendars and diaries have ISBNs and so are often counted as books, but most aren't sold from bookshops; some periodicals have ISBNs but aren't sold from bookshops; academic publications aren't sold from bookshops, but have ISBNs so are counted as books. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

4) And that last point is so very wrong, and so very hard to decipher, that I'm not even going to take a stab at it. Except to say that you're wrong. If you'd care to provide more context, I'll be happy to try to clarify for you.

3- It's called royalties, just like any book deal.

Those royalties are likely to be miniscule; and you're quoting aliceshortcake out of context in an attempt to distract us from the real point that she made.

4- Another false argument. As with any book deal, an agent can negotiate a sweeter deal than the pub's boilerplate.

They can, you're right. But again you're taking aliceshortcake's words out of context. She's right that epubs often don't require agents, and right that this throws WWMS's involvement in the deal into a new light.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi, Steve. Good to see you here.

Can you tell us a little about your more recent sales?

[Steve H]

Originally Posted by Old Hack

1- if the authors concerned don't have to pay to publish, what's this talk about investment?

2- Only a small percentage of all books have ever reached bookshop shelves, so this is not new.

3- She's right that epubs often don't require agents

1- Most publishers these days expect authors to participate in the marketing of their book in various ways. And serious authors do. It doesn't mean they pay the publisher.

2- Exactly. Hence, shelf space is not a necessary measure of a legitimate publisher.

3- Agreed. And just as with print, authors with agents generally get better deals.

[Steve H]

James, I updated my web yesterday. All of my deals are now posted.

[James D. Macdonald]

Thanks, Steve. I wish you (and your clients) every success.

[Old Hack]

Steve, I'm glad that you came back to the discussion, and I don't mean to pick on you: but it seems to me that when you quoted me there you did so in a way which changed the implied meaning of my words. You did the same when you quoted aliceshortcake's post, too. Of course, you could have done it in all innocence, and for the sake of brevity: but please don't do that. If you did it intentionally it's wrong of you and even if you didn't have that intention, it makes the conversation much harder to follow for anyone reading along.

Let's look at our conversation again, this time with more of what I said to provide a better context.

I wrote this,

Originally Posted by Old Hack

That's good news. Because publishers and agents who charge authors anything for publication or representation aren't worth bothering about. That includes charging authors at the back end of publication, by requiring them to buy their own books, by the way.

However, I note that ASTD says this on its website:

My bold. This is standard vanity press weasel-wording and if the authors concerned don't have to pay to publish, what's this talk about investment?

The part in bold italics is the part you quoted.

And you replied with,

Originally Posted by Steve H

1- Most publishers these days expect authors to participate in the marketing of their book in various ways. And serious authors do. It doesn't mean they pay the publisher.

Most good publishers that I've worked with like it when authors work on the promotion of their books, but I don't know any good publishers which require authors to pay towards the marketing of their work (I've always been taught to differentiate the two on the basis of cost: ads, distributor placement and certain catalogue listings are paid-for, and I count this as marketing; signings, readings, interviews are on the face of it free, and come under the heading of promotion).

Requiring that their authors pay something towards the marketing of their books? That's not a standard practice.

Publishers which require investment from the author are almost always vanity publishers (I can't actually think of any publishers which make this requirement which aren't vanity publishers, but I'm prepared to accept that there might be one or two). This is one of the standard red flags. ASTD Press does seem to require such an investment. What does it do with that investment, why does it require it, and how is it acceptable for them to have this requirement?

Moving on, I wrote,

2) Bookshop placement is not rare for the books which sell in reasonable amounts, and for the sort of books which most people read.

3) Only a small percentage of all books have ever reached bookshop shelves, so this is not new. That's because only a small percentage of books have ever been appropriate for selling in bookshops: calendars and diaries have ISBNs and so are often counted as books, but most aren't sold from bookshops; some periodicals have ISBNs but aren't sold from bookshops; academic publications aren't sold from bookshops, but have ISBNs so are counted as books. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

The part in bold italics is the part you quoted. You replied,

2- Exactly. Hence, shelf space is not a necessary measure of a legitimate publisher.

Well, yes--but there are all sorts of reasons for that; and it remains that when a book is published by a trade publisher in a print edition, if it doesn't hit the bookshop shelves at publication it's not likely to sell many copies.

Either you missed my point there, or you were trying to make it look as though I'd said something that I hadn't. If the second option is correct that wasn't very nice of you, Steve.

And for your final point I wrote this,

They can, you're right. But again you're taking aliceshortcake's words out of context. She's right that epubs often don't require agents, and right that this throws WWMS's involvement in the deal into a new light.

Again, bold and italic indicates the part of my reply which you quoted. Your response:

3- Agreed. And just as with print, authors with agents generally get better deals.

You're right that authors with representation usually get better deals than those without. But once again, that wasn't the point that I was making and by quoting me in the way that you did, you imply otherwise; and that representation has to be good representation, otherwise the author is probably worse off than if she'd proceeded alone.

Moving on again to the direct discussion of WordWise Media Services: I note that their front page is targetted at selling their services to writers, and not at promoting the authors they represent. This is not a good sign. Then there's the editing services they offer. From their website:

Separation of services. The editing side of our business is separate from the literary agency. This firewall is necessary because, under the generally accepted canons of the business, an ethical agent must not charge fees to his/her clients. We make money only when you do. For this reason, if you hire us to edit your manuscript, we cannot consider your work for representation until at least one year after the completion of your most recent project.

I'd be far happier if they wrote,

if you hire us to edit your manuscript, we cannot consider your work for representation.

I note that neither of the two staff members mentioned on the WWMS website (one of whom is Steve Hutson, who is, I assume, the Steve H who has commented in this thread) appear to have any experience in publishing prior to working for WWMS. This means that they're very unlikely to have a proper understanding of how publishing works. And no matter how good their intentions, that's going to put them at a huge disadvantage when it comes to representing their clients.

[Steve H]

I've had my say, Old Hack. I still don't understand why you have taken such an interest in my business, and seek to tear me down. If you want to know something about me, you can ask.

My clients are happy with my work, and my editor colleagues often request to see my clients' manuscripts. I could boast more, but then you would accuse me of yet another crime. Not gonna go there.

[Old Hack]

Originally Posted by Steve H

I've had my say, Old Hack. I still don't understand why you have taken such an interest in my business, and seek to tear me down. If you want to know something about me, you can ask.

Steve, I've not targetted you or your business, and I'm not trying to "tear you down". But when you quote me, and other members, out of context, and make questionable claims about publishing, then I will respond to that. You're welcome to refute my points any time you like.

This section of AbsoluteWrite is designed to help writers find out about publishers, agents, display sites, writing coaches, editorial agencies, and any other people or organisations which those writers might encounter on their road to publication: we discuss the pros and cons of all sorts of businesses here, but only from the point of view of whether or not they might prove helpful to the writers using them. Yes, we sometimes ask difficult questions here: but that works in favour of the good companies and exposes the bad, and that has to be good for writers in the end, don't you agree?

There are certain things which we've seen over and over again which provide huge red warning-flags that certain companies or organisations might not be good for writers. One of those red flags is when a company offering services for writers is run by people with no experience of publishing (for example, publishing companies or literary agencies set up by people who have never worked in trade publishing), or by people who have had no publishing successes (for example, people who have failed to gain a trade publishing contract so have self-published, have sold very few copies, and are now offering paid-for editorial advice). A few such new ventures succeed but the majority do not, and the writing advice that they hand out can be seriously detrimental to the authors whose work they affect.

As WordWise Media Services appears to be run by two people with no experience on either side of the trade publishing desk, I have to question how well you understand the market and whether you provide the best option for writers considering submitting their work to you.

That you've made a sale to (if I recall correctly) Thomas Nelson is a point in your favour, however.

You said you welcomed questions, so I'll ask: how many clients do you have? How many sales have you made to royalty-and-advance-paying publishers? And how many sales have you made to publishers which require authors to make an investment in the publication of their own books?

My clients are happy with my work, and my editor colleagues often request to see my clients' manuscripts.

Excellent! I'm glad to hear that. As you said you welcomed questions, here are a few more for you. How many clients have you taken on whose books you've failed to sell? How many of your clients came to you via your editorial agency? Who are the editors who often request those manuscripts? Where do they work? How many of them work for advance-and-royalty-paying publishers, and how many of them work for publishers which require payment or "investment" from the authors they sign up?

I could boast more, but then you would accuse me of yet another crime. Not gonna go there.

Where have I accused you of any crimes? Where have I accused you of anything? Quote those parts of my comments here, please, but make sure you do so in context. I wouldn't like to be misrepresented by you again.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's nothing personal, Steve. This is where we look at all the agents and publishers to see who's worth submitting to, from an author's point of view.

For myself, I'd be more interested in hearing your background and experience in publishing, but what, if anything, you wish to share is up to you.

Generally speaking, the successful agents that we see have a background either as sub-agents with another successful agency, or a history in editorial at a major publisher. It's very much an apprenticeship situation.

Again, this isn't personal; I've said it dozens of times over the years: "Agent" isn't an entry-level position.

[shaldna]

Originally Posted by Steve H

I've had my say, Old Hack. I still don't understand why you have taken such an interest in my business, and seek to tear me down. If you want to know something about me, you can ask.

My clients are happy with my work, and my editor colleagues often request to see my clients' manuscripts. I could boast more, but then you would accuse me of yet another crime. Not gonna go there.

No one is trying to tear you or your business down. This is a community of writers and writing professionals. People come here to this board to seek advice. It's not the goal of anyone here or the function of these boards to tear people down.

Yes, there have been questions asked on this thread based on the information YOU supplied on your PUBLIC website. Certain things there raised questions and possible concerns. That's not trying to tear anyone down, that's honesty.

Look at it this way, if you were taking my apendix out I would want to know if you had any medical training. It's the same with any business, publishing is no exception.

[aliceshortcake]

I emailed ASTD Press and asked them if they were a partnership/subsidy publisher. The reply:

No, we are a traditional publisher. But we do view the relationship between the author and publisher as one of partnership, where both parties are working toward a common goal. The ‘investment’ made by the author is one of their time and expertise in writing the book, and then working hard to market it upon publication.

A correction is therefore in order, but I do wish ASTD had been a bit more careful with the wording of their website. Perhaps they simply don't know that vanity presses use very similar phraseology.

[jvdlandersen]

Steve is my agent, and I couldn't be happier. He sold my book in record time. I found him through an old fashioned query. No, I was not one of his editing clients. I have not paid him any money (other than what he receives on royalties), nor have I paid the publisher. (It's a traditional epub with print options available.) I've been very impressed with Mr. Hutson's professionalism and his hard work. He's been my biggest cheerleader and encouragement. He keeps me informed of queries to publishers and the responses. I highly recommend Steve.

[Undercover]

Has anyone else dealt with this agency? I see he's got one good sale "Noir (ish" with Penguin. I don't see that Thomas Nelson book though.

[Sunta]

Yes, I had an experience with this agency just recently, and I believe they are legitimate, even though it didn't work out for me. I submitted my query letter to Steven and he asked me for a full proposal, which I sent. He wrote back with some concerns he had about the proposal, and we communicated on email a couple of times back and forth. He wanted a specific format which involves embedding the entire proposal and both chapters with end notes into a single Word document. I had a problem with the Word endnotes and could not figure out how to add an additional chapter after the notes. This seems to be an issue with Word 2010 as per information I found online. Even after enlisting the help of numerous tech savvy friends, and even following online instructions, we still could not resolve this issue. Anyway, I ended up sending two attachments instead of one, and that knocked me out of the running with Steven. I found this thread last night while researching this agency, and I'm jumping in here for two reasons: one-at no time during our correspondence did Steven mention ANY additional services such as editing or anything else. At no time did he mention any fees or try to extract any money out of me whatsoever. Therefore, I feel that this agency is 100% legitimate. Secondly, if anyone is thinking of sending this agency a query or proposal, you MUST make sure the guidelines listed in the agency Website are followed exactly. You might have to use an older version of Word in order to deal with the footnote issue. I just feel that some of the information on here about this agency is not true (such as them being pay-to-play), based on the experience I had and I wanted to share the fact that even though I was rejected by this agency, they never tried to sell me anything at all. Best of luck everyone! -Becky

[Old Hack]

Originally Posted by Sunta

He wanted a specific format which involves embedding the entire proposal and both chapters with end notes into a single Word document. I had a problem with the Word endnotes and could not figure out how to add an additional chapter after the notes. This seems to be an issue with Word 2010 as per information I found online. Even after enlisting the help of numerous tech savvy friends, and even following online instructions, we still could not resolve this issue. Anyway, I ended up sending two attachments instead of one, and that knocked me out of the running with Steven.

Seriously? He worked with you to edit your manuscript, went through several passes with you, and then wouldn't help you because you sent him two attachments instead of one?

That seems a bit odd.

[Terie]

Originally Posted by Old Hack

Seriously? He worked with you to edit your manuscript, went through several passes with you, and then wouldn't help you because you sent him two attachments instead of one?

That seems a bit odd.

I second this. A good agent is concerned about the content, not the format.