Help George Zimmerman. Send Money!

backslashbaby · May 1, 2012

Lyv said:
I think that's possible. I've thought a lot about when the gun came out. Zimmerman's brother said he had a holster at his waist. For Zimmerman's story to be true, he would have had to get the gun out while Trayvon was straddling him and beating him to the point that he was almost unconscious. I don't buy that.

I've read that Trayvon was found with his arms under his body, which also seems odd if he fell onto Zimmerman. He would have been shot while holding Zimmerman's head, if Zimmerman's story were true. How did Zimmerman get out from under him? And either someone let him change or he somehow didn't get blood on his shirt. Witnesses' statements also describe some odd behavior from Zimmerman after he killed Trayvon.

So much doesn't add up.

I know; that's why I'm so furious with the police (or their superiors) for not taking Zimmerman's clothes. That blood spatter evidence could help find the truth.

Yorkist · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
And your argument and others I've seen here would not get thrown out of court?

Frankly, no. For one thing, most "arguments" like yours around here acknowledge what they actually are: narratives, or possible scenarios as to what could have happened. The actual legal arguments regarding guilt are, if not based on de jure law, at least logical.

I could ask you the same thing. Why are you so invested in Zimmerman's guilt?

Because I don't want to live in a world where a strange man can stalk me with a gun, and then kill me when I don't like it, and that's called self-defense. That is, at best, negligent homicide or manslaughter regardless of my behavior regarding the pursuit. (The details of the case, many of which were lost due to the lack of police investigation, would determine which it is.)

Clintl and Willie said it best:

clintl said:
I, for one, don't believe there's any self defense involved when the stalker is also the shooter.

Williebee said:
When we follow someone, with a gun, we are the hunter, not the hunted. We are the aggressor, and what happens is on us.

Now, your turn.

muravyets · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
Yet Zimmerman seemed afraid of Martin, you could hear it in his voice when he told the dispatcher Martin was heading towards him, and that he was holding something at his belt, or words to that effect. I would assume he feared Martin was armed with a gun or knife. I doubt that under the circumstances Zimmerman would intend to confront Martin. I believe he wanted to keep him in his sights so as not to lose him before the police arrived. This plan fell through (I believe) when Martin confronted him.

First, you don't know this, you only assume it.

Second, let's imagine your assumptions are correct. If he was so afraid, why did he get out of his car? Because the cop told him to? That claim has already been debunked several times over from several angles.

Your argument just doesn't hold up.

Kelly Creighton · May 1, 2012

Lyv said:
I think that's possible. I've thought a lot about when the gun came out. Zimmerman's brother said he had a holster at his waist. For Zimmerman's story to be true, he would have had to get the gun out while Trayvon was straddling him and beating him to the point that he was almost unconscious. I don't buy that.

If you don't buy that consider this: A prisoner had an RCMP officer face down on a couch and was choking him. But the cop managed to get his gun out of its holster, reach around the back of the prisoner's head and shoot him.

"At a coroner's inquest last summer, Koester testified Bush was on top of him and choking him to death when he pulled the trigger as a last resort. Koester said he was lying face down on a couch, reached up around behind Bush and shot."

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=4157584b-571b-42ee-80f1-270cd4ed445b&sponsor=

It wouldn't have been all that difficult for Zimmerman to pull his gun while he was lying flat on his back. Besides, according to Zimmerman, Martin was trying to grab the gun, which would make it even easier. I don't see any problem with that at all.

muravyets · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
Your argument that Martin confronted Zimmerman because he was afraid Zimmerman was carrying a deadly weapon is what is defeating itself. Why would you confront someone you are afraid is carrying a deadly weapon? It doesn't make sense. If Martin had been afraid he would have just kept running. But we know he didn't!

That's true, it makes no sense for someone to get out of the safety of their vehicle to expose themselves in a back walkway, alone, in the dark, to a stranger they are afraid of. No sense at all.

So why did Zimmerman do that, then? That is what you've been claiming Zimmerman did, after all. If it makes no sense for Martin to have done, why would it make sense for Zimmerman to have done it?

Lyv · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
If you don't buy that consider this: A prisoner had an RCMP officer face down on a couch and was choking him. But the cop managed to get his gun out of its holster, reach around the back of the prisoner's head and shoot him.

"At a coroner's inquest last summer, Koester testified Bush was on top of him and choking him to death when he pulled the trigger as a last resort. Koester said he was lying face down on a couch, reached up around behind Bush and shot."

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=4157584b-571b-42ee-80f1-270cd4ed445b&sponsor=

From your link:

Koester said he was lying face down on a couch, reached up around behind Bush and shot.

That version was discounted at the inquest by Joe Slemko, a blood-spatter expert, who concluded Koester must have been behind Bush when he shot him.

Once again, you've proven my point rather than your own.

MacAllister · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
If you don't buy that consider this: A prisoner had an RCMP officer face down on a couch and was choking him. But the cop managed to get his gun out of its holster, reach around the back of the prisoner's head and shoot him.

"At a coroner's inquest last summer, Koester testified Bush was on top of him and choking him to death when he pulled the trigger as a last resort. Koester said he was lying face down on a couch, reached up around behind Bush and shot."

http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=4157584b-571b-42ee-80f1-270cd4ed445b&sponsor=

And these women lifted a car off of a child to save his life -- and that has as just about as much relevance to this discussion as your example.

Just stop with the goalpost shifting and engage the conversation, okay?

Kelly Creighton · May 1, 2012

muravyets said:
That's true, it makes no sense for someone to get out of the safety of their vehicle to expose themselves in a back walkway, alone, in the dark, to a stranger they are afraid of. No sense at all.

So why did Zimmerman do that, then? That is what you've been claiming Zimmerman did, after all. If it makes no sense for Martin to have done, why would it make sense for Zimmerman to have done it?

I'm not "claiming" Zimmerman left his vehicle to see which way Martin was headed, in answer to the dispatcher's question. It is a matter of public record that he did. Just listen to the 911 call. And I would surmise that a sense of duty, Zimmerman was the Block Watch Captain, would override his fears and drive him on.

Kelly Creighton · May 1, 2012

Lyv said:
From your link:

Once again, you've proven my point rather than your own.

No, sorry, you're mistaken again. The testimony of that particular blood spatter expert was disregarded by the court, and Koester was cleared of all and any wrongdoing. Other experts demonstrated how it is possible, although difficult, to reach for one's gun while lying face down being choked to death by someone who's lying on top of you. So hey, if that's possible, then lying flat on your back like Zimmerman was would be a cake walk by comparison.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/281319--b-c-mountie-cleared-in-shooting-death

Lyv · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
No, sorry, you're mistaken again. The testimony of that particular blood spatter expert was disregarded by the court, and Koester was cleared of all and any wrongdoing. Other experts demonstrated how it is possible, although difficult, to reach for one's gun while lying face down being choked to death by someone who's lying on top of you.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/281319--b-c-mountie-cleared-in-shooting-death

You're trying very,very hard, but that story and that the cop was cleared don't make Zimmerman's ridiculous story any more plausible (and how and when he got the gun out is only one element). It's a shame that he wasn't charged as the lead detective wanted.

Kelly Creighton · May 1, 2012

MacAllister said:
And these women lifted a car off of a child to save his life -- and that has as just about as much relevance to this discussion as your example.

Just stop with the goalpost shifting and engage the conversation, okay?

I disagree. My example is entirely relevant given that someone said it would not be possible for Zimmerman to get out his gun while he was lying flat on his back with Martin on top of him. My example demonstrated how one can get out a gun under even more difficult circumstances. I.e. when lying FACE-DOWN with the aggressor on top choking one into a state of near unconsciousness.

Kelly Creighton · May 1, 2012

Lyv said:
You're trying very,very hard, but that story and that the cop was cleared don't make Zimmerman's ridiculous story any more plausible (and how and when he got the gun out is only one element). It's a shame that he wasn't charged as the lead detective wanted.

I fail to see anything either ridiculous or implausible about Zimmerman's account of events.

MacAllister · May 1, 2012

Right. What arms and self-defense training programs are you suggesting Zimmerman has successfully completed, then, that he performed so spectacularly under such intense (supposed) pressure?

Because the RCMP go through rather a lot of training and performance evaluation before they get to put on that uniform -- so you're comparing apples to zebras.

In other words, unless you can demonstrate that Zimmerman's hand-to-hand skills are the equivalent, that anecdote is only so much irresponsible speculation, not evidence of and not proof of anything.

Yorkist · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
I'm not "claiming" Zimmerman left his vehicle to see which way Martin was headed, in answer to the dispatcher's question. It is a matter of public record that he did. Just listen to the 911 call.

In other words, he stalked him.

I'm a woman. I've been stalked by a man before, and I was afraid. You keep focusing on Zimmerman's fears. What about Martin's? Zimmerman had a gun, and thus less reason to be afraid.

You are persistently ignoring the element of stalking in your "analysis" of this case, as well as the fact that one party had the advantage - a gun. The stalking party.

Stalking.

And I would surmise that a sense of duty, Zimmerman was the Block Watch Captain, would override his fears and drive him on.

Uh, neighborhood watchpeople are not supposed to carry guns while on the job. Sense of duty my ass.

Kelly Creighton · May 1, 2012

MacAllister said:
Right. What arms and self-defense training programs are you suggesting Zimmerman has successfully completed, then, that he performed so spectacularly under such intense (supposed) pressure?

You wouldn't require arms and self-defence training to get a gun out of a holster and shoot an attacker on top of you. There's nothing "spectacular" about it. It's all down to self preservation. Besides, according to Zimmerman, Martin was grabbing for the gun, which would make it that much easier.

MacAllister · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
You wouldn't require arms and self-defence training to get a gun out of a holster and shoot an attacker on top of you. There's nothing "spectacular" about it. It's all down to self preservation. Besides, according to Zimmerman, Martin was grabbing for the gun, which would make it that much easier.

Oh right -- Zimmerman's word is completely unimpeachable because he has Christian parents, so he MUST be telling the unvarnished truth.

Meh. I'm reasonably sure I couldn't get a gun out of holster and shoot an assailant sitting atop my ribcage pounding my head on the sidewalk, whilst on the verge of unconciousness -- and I'm pretty coordinated and pretty level-headed and familiar with firearms. But a Mountie once managed it, so it totally follows that a suburban rent-a-cop wannabe managed to do it, too.

So in other words, you're completely speculating, right? You're building a what-if case that's utterly and completely sympathetic to Zimmerman's version of events, including making wild-ass and insulting insinuations about Trayvon Martin's history and character, in order to make it less awful that Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager dead, on someone's lawn in their cozy gated community.

Why not just admit that straight up?

I'm happy to freely admit that I'm biased against any argument that says it's totally justifiable and okay for any asshole with a gun to call the cops then follow me down a dark street and shoot me, just because he doesn't like my looks.

Lyv · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
You wouldn't require arms and self-defence training to get a gun out of a holster and shoot an attacker on top of you. There's nothing "spectacular" about it. It's all down to self preservation. Besides, according to Zimmerman, Martin was grabbing for the gun, which would make it that much easier.

So now it's that Trayvon was reaching for the gun, while straddling Zimmerman and beating his head against the ground, to the point that Zimmerman was losing consciousness.

I know, I know; you see nothing ridiculous or implausible in that. Nothing at all.

muravyets · May 1, 2012

Kelly Creighton said:
I'm not "claiming" Zimmerman left his vehicle to see which way Martin was headed, in answer to the dispatcher's question. It is a matter of public record that he did. Just listen to the 911 call. And I would surmise that a sense of duty, Zimmerman was the Block Watch Captain, would override his fears and drive him on.

No, it is not a matter of record. I'll walk you through what's what in your post:

"Zimmerman left his vehicle <- this is a matter of record. to see which way Martin was headed <- this is speculation on your part, in answer to the dispatcher's question <- this is false on the facts, as established by the timeline of the 911 call. It is a matter of public record that he did. Just listen to the 911 call. And I would surmise that a sense of duty, Zimmerman was the Block Watch Captain, would override his fears and drive him on <- and this is sweet and all, but completely nonsensical."

So basically, out of your entire statement, we have one detail of fact and the rest a fantasy concocted out of baseless speculations and what appears to be personal admiration for George Zimmerman.

Kelly Creighton · May 1, 2012

Lyv said:
So now it's that Trayvon was reaching for the gun, while straddling Zimmerman and beating his head against the ground, to the point that Zimmerman was losing consciousness.

I know, I know; you see nothing ridiculous or implausible in that. Nothing at all.

That's right, I don't, because there is nothing "ridiculous or implausible" about it. If Martin spotted the gun while he was beating up on Zimmerman, there's no reason at all why he couldn't and wouldn't have made a grab for it.

muravyets · May 1, 2012

Yorkist said:
In other words, he stalked him.

I'm a woman. I've been stalked by a man before, and I was afraid. You keep focusing on Zimmerman's fears. What about Martin's? Zimmerman had a gun, and thus less reason to be afraid.

You are persistently ignoring the element of stalking in your "analysis" of this case, as well as the fact that one party had the advantage - a gun. The stalking party.

Stalking.

Uh, neighborhood watchpeople are not supposed to carry guns while on the job. Sense of duty my ass.

Neighborhood watch captains are not supposed to follow people, either.

muravyets · May 1, 2012

Lyv said:
So now it's that Trayvon was reaching for the gun, while straddling Zimmerman and beating his head against the ground, to the point that Zimmerman was losing consciousness.

I know, I know; you see nothing ridiculous or implausible in that. Nothing at all.

Did the medical examiner's report tell us that Trayvon Martin had six arms, none of which showed injuries from a fight?

MacAllister · May 1, 2012

Oh for gods sake.

You know, the more I think about it, it's entirely possible that Trayvon Martin was really a hostile alien invader, and Zimmerman found out about the imminent earth invasion and heroically acted to save us all in the very nick of time because he knew Martin's hordes of horrific space-worms were on their way to cannibalize mankind!

We're done here. This has just gotten stupid at this point -- and it's too hard to get the stink of stupid off my clothes once someone gets it all over me like this.

MacAllister · May 2, 2012

It's come to my attention that Kelly Creighton has been sending trollish and abusive PMs -- so this member will now be leaving our company permanently.

MacAllister · May 2, 2012

I'm going to re-open this thread for discussion again, now, since the troll has departed -- and just in case anyone's concerned that Kelly was just misunderstood and not trolling? I've just received this via the Contact Us form:

The following message was sent to you via the Absolute Write Water Cooler Contact Us form by Kelly Creighton ( mailto:*[redacted]*@excite.com ).

--------------------------------

Go fuck yourself you fat ignorant cow. You can't ban someone who's already left.
Check it out cunt:

Where writers meet(dot)pro boards(dot)com/index.cgi?action=display&board=news&thread=1244&pa ge=3

--------------------------------

Referring Page: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/priv...m&pmid=1515472
IP Address: 46.28.105.7
User Name: Kelly Creighton
User ID: 59322

Since Kelly has maintained that people with a good Christian upbringing are MUCH less prone to behaving badly, we can only surmise that s/he doesn't kiss her pastor with that mouth...

Xelebes · May 2, 2012

Where writers certainly meet indeed.

Help George Zimmerman. Send Money!

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