Tor/Forge ebooks going DRM-free

Arpeggio said:

How can you compare print books to eBooks? Printed books can't be duplicated like electronic files and you can't resell an eBook like it is second hand. If someones "borrows" an eBook then decides to buy because they like it then they must be very honest!

Click to expand...

Actually, people have been OCRing or scanning print books and putting files on the Internet for quite some time. OCR technology has been around since at least the 50's.

And there were pirated ebook copies of the Harry Potter books waaaay before actual ebook versions of the books were available to buy.

DRM, no DRM, print-only... doesn't matter. People will pirate it.

Arpeggio said:

How can you compare print books to eBooks? Printed books can't be duplicated like electronic files and you can't resell an eBook like it is second hand. If someones "borrows" an eBook then decides to buy because they like it then they must be very honest!

Click to expand...

Print books have been duplicated in print for better than thirty years.

A high speed sheet copier can duplicate a printed book in twenty minutes or less. It was a regular industry for years; take a book, cut the spine, put it in a sheet feeder, and make copies which you sell.

Yes, it was and is illegal, and yes, publishers sued. Kinkos and other copy shops paid all sorts of back rights and punitive fines.

And yes, some licenses make it perfectly legal to resell an ebook; you must however destroy any copies, according to most licenses.

Baen never has had any DRM on any of their ebooks. None of the ebooks I've produced have had any DRM--going back to 1989, and that's hundreds of ebooks.

Dishonest and unethical people are dishonest and unethical.

They will lie, cheat or steal no matter what we do.

But they are in the minority. Why punish honest and law-abiding people for crimes they haven't committed?

DRM doesn't work now, and never has worked.

Locking books with chains in monastic libraries didn't work.

Magnetic tags in books doesn't work.

DRM is no more effective.

Arpeggio said:

Yes, that people might do that.

Click to expand...

Some would, most wouldn't.

James D. Macdonald said:

Some would, most wouldn't.

Click to expand...

Thanks, good I hope so!

amergina said:

Actually, people have been OCRing or scanning print books and putting files on the Internet for quite some time. OCR technology has been around since at least the 50's.

And there were pirated ebook copies of the Harry Potter books waaaay before actual ebook versions of the books were available to buy.

DRM, no DRM, print-only... doesn't matter. People will pirate it.

Click to expand...

Typical Piracy or OCR didn't concern me too much. My concern was more about piracy creeping into the normal consumer level among those who don't normally seek from pirate outlets but simply pass on a copy of non-DRM eBooks they recommend to whoever they are recommending it to, which would be ironic as word of mouth sales are known to be one of the most genuine. On a 1-1 level OCR would be more expensive than buying a legal copy. Anyway interesting thread!

Arpeggio said:

Typical Piracy or OCR didn't concern me too much. My concern was more about piracy creeping into the normal consumer level among those who don't normally seek from pirate outlets but simply pass on a copy of non-DRM eBooks they recommend to whoever they are recommending it to, which would be ironic as word of mouth sales are known to be one of the most genuine. On a 1-1 level OCR would be more expensive than buying a legal copy. Anyway interesting thread!

Click to expand...

I'm still not understanding what's the difference between passing around an ebook (Here is this great book, give it a try!) and passing around a print book (Here is this great book, give it a try!) as per Uncle Jim's question.

I have ebooks I've purchased and I've still bought my own print copy. I have (DRMless) ebooks that someone has given me and I've still bought my own print copy. I have print copy books lent to me that I enjoyed so much I've still bought my own print copy.

And through all that, for copies given to me to try out, if I like the author well enough, I buy other books in their backlist as well.

Am I misunderstanding your concern?

Medievalist said:

Baen never has had any DRM on any of their ebooks. None of the ebooks I've produced have had any DRM--going back to 1989, and that's hundreds of ebooks.

Dishonest and unethical people are dishonest and unethical.

They will lie, cheat or steal no matter what we do.

But they are in the minority. Why punish honest and law-abiding people for crimes they haven't committed?

Click to expand...

You've a lot of experience in non-DRM. The sites in your tagline reflect a lot of interests I find it difficult to find your eBooks, I would like to!

That is good to know they are in a minority. I found this survey a while ago which seems to reflect that, the comments are interesting...

http://debates.juggle.com/should-intellectual-property-rights-be-abolished

bearilou said:

I'm still not understanding what's the difference between passing around an ebook (Here is this great book, give it a try!) and passing around a print book (Here is this great book, give it a try!) as per Uncle Jim's question.

I have ebooks I've purchased and I've still bought my own print copy. I have (DRMless) ebooks that someone has given me and I've still bought my own print copy. I have print copy books lent to me that I enjoyed so much I've still bought my own print copy.

And through all that, for copies given to me to try out, if I like the author well enough, I buy other books in their backlist as well.

Am I misunderstanding your concern?

Click to expand...

If you pass on a print book only one exists, it can't normally be replicated on a 1-1 basis in a way that would be cheaper or less time consuming than simply buying another legal copy. Digital material like a non-DRM eBook can.

My concern was as I mentioned in reply to amergina; more about piracy creeping into the normal consumer level among those who don't normally seek from pirate outlets but simply pass on a copy of non-DRM eBooks they recommend to whoever they are recommending it to. Yourself not being one of those people as you buy. Otherwise I'm confident publishing non-DRM is worth doing and see its benifits.

Arpeggio said:

If you pass on a print book only one exists, it can't normally be replicated on a 1-1 basis in a way that would be cheaper or less time consuming than simply buying another legal copy. Digital material like a non-DRM eBook can.

My concern was as I mentioned in reply to amergina; more about piracy creeping into the normal consumer level among those who don't normally seek from pirate outlets but simply pass on a copy of non-DRM eBooks they recommend to whoever they are recommending it to. Yourself not being one of those people as you buy. Otherwise I'm confident publishing non-DRM is worth doing and see its benifits.

Click to expand...

ahHA! Gotcha. That makes sense.

Arpeggio said:

If you pass on a print book only one exists, it can't normally be replicated on a 1-1 basis in a way that would be cheaper or less time consuming than simply buying another legal copy. Digital material like a non-DRM eBook can.

Click to expand...

DRM doesn't stop easily duplicating the book. It is quite literally a matter of dragging the DRM'd book on an app and dropping it to remove the DRM.

A directory of a hundred or more ebooks takes minutes to crack the DRM. It is trivial. The tools to crack the DRM are freely available and simple to use.

A printed book may be easily passed hand-to-hand.

Moreover, removing DRM does not mean that a book may not be serialized (i.e. given a hidden id that links to the buyer), have a visible "book plate" that is not easily removed, or contain a Web bug that calls home to mother, or watermarked.

One of my publishers serializes; another uses a watermark. Neither strike me as problems for the original buyer.

Medievalist said:

DRM doesn't stop easily duplicating the book. It is quite literally a matter of dragging the DRM'd book on an app and dropping it to remove the DRM.

A directory of a hundred or more ebooks takes minutes to crack the DRM. It is trivial. The tools to crack the DRM are freely available and simple to use.

A printed book may be easily passed hand-to-hand.

Moreover, removing DRM does not mean that a book may not be serialized (i.e. given a hidden id that links to the buyer), have a visible "book plate" that is not easily removed, or contain a Web bug that calls home to mother, or watermarked.

One of my publishers serializes; another uses a watermark. Neither strike me as problems for the original buyer.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a good idea. I use watermarking on my PDF's, at the bottom of all pages I have an unobtrusive copyright and a link to my website. I don't think I could use serializing as I'm with Lightning Source and they only take eBook submissions with no security (before appling DRM, which I am opting out of).