Epileptic Dog

Puma · Sep 14, 2011

Our largest dog, about 90lbs, 3-1/2yrs old started having seizures over the summer. He's on phenobarbitol, 100mg, twice a day.

This morning 50 minutes after he had his pill he went into a seizure, barely came out, went into another ... 40 minutes later after four episodes he was on his feet and stable enough to walk around (but still bumping into things.)

Since he's started the phenobarb he's only had one other, very brief seizure, nothing like this.

He only gets Purina dry food to eat, Alpo-snaps for treats, and a quarter piece of cheese with each pill - plus an occasional meat treat. So diet is most likely not causing any issues (and he didn't have anything different yesterday or this morning.)

I didn't use any strong cleaning products yesterday (and tend to keep them to a minimum anyway.)

Anyone have any good thoughts on things I should think about that might have set him off this time? I'm pretty sure he didn't spit his pill out (one of the first things I checked for and no pills on the floor anywhere.)

We love him to pieces but he has my husband and me on needles and pins. Puma

Carlene · Sep 14, 2011

I'm so sorry to hear about your dog's seizures. My pure-bred yellow lab, Clark started having them at age 8 and had them occasionally until he went to the rainbow bridge at 12 1/2. We never did figure out why. He, too was on phenobarbital. The vet's we consulted said sometimes you just never know. He said there were various tests to take but...most were inconclusive. When Clark has a seizure, I'd sit on the floor next to him, rub his tummy and tell him softly to come back to us. I think it helped. He'd often pee and sometimes bit his lip or tongue. I wish you luck and hope you can find a trigger but do not feel badly if you don't. It's probably NOT your fault.

Good luck and let us all know how he does.

Carlene

Brutal Mustang · Sep 14, 2011

My sister's little dog has a big problem with seizures. My sister gives her a bowlful of milk every morning, and swears by it. She says every time she skips the daily milk, the dog has a bunch of seizures. If your doggy isn't lactose intolerant, could be worth a try.

kdesanges · Sep 14, 2011

Back when I was a teenager (eons ago) my beloved German Shepherd also started having seizures at around the age of 5. My mother, a conspiracy theorist, thinks the neighbor hit him over the head with a big stick when the dog tried to attack him (long story).

But I agree, sometimes you don't know what brings these attacks on. The phenobarbital will keep the seizures at bay for the most part, but it has been my experience with my german shepherd that breakthrough seizures will happen without any rhyme or reason. They are so hard to watch and the animal is disoriented for a while, but eventually they come back to us.

You and your husband sound like wonderful parents and the best thing you can do is what you are doing now: providing medication and love!

rugcat · Sep 14, 2011

We have an epileptic dog. She developed seizures, every day or so, and the pheno got it down to once every two weeks or ten days. But the dose was large enough so it affected her everyday coordination.

Her seizures seemed to be totally at random – there was never any obvious cause. In fact there's never been any correlation to anything that we could discover. I think in most cases, there isn't one.

But it's important (actually crucial) in controlling seizures to get just the right dosage and combination/proportion of drugs, and finding that is a process of trial and error. In addition to pheno, we added potassium bromide, and it made a big difference. You should talk to your vet about this.

We finally got the proportions an dosages right for her – juggled the two drugs and then slowly decreased dosages until she started having seizures again, then tweaked the dosages and proportions, etc. She's been seizure free for over a year now.

Another thing that's useful to have is a kind of injectable Valium (diazepam) suppository. Big dogs especially can have cluster seizures, one after another before the dog can recover from the first. It's just awful, and can be dangerous as well, so it's a good thing to have some on hand. It's a last resort, but it's a comfort to have it available. Again, ask your vet about this.

Puma · Sep 14, 2011

Thanks, guys. Rugrat, you give me hope that we might be able to get him under control. Brutal Mustang, you also gave me a thought because he loves to clean up any milk the kitties don't drink when I give them some (very old kitties who like a little milk.)

I read in one article that sometimes the problem comes from low blood sugar and they recommended giving the dog a spoonful of vanilla ice cream (proportionate to the dog's size) as soon as possible. Anyone have any experience with that? Puma

lbender · Sep 15, 2011

I'm a vet. There's a lot of things that can cause seizures. I'm going to assume your vet did, at least, a complete blood count and a full chemistry profile. Probably tested for some infectious diseases, too, like toxoplasmosis. If all that stuff is negative or normal, the next step in diagnosis would probably be an analysis of the cerebrospinal fluid.

Phenobarb is a symptomatic drug. It works well, as does potassium bromide and a couple of other things. But, it controls seizures only. It does nothing to treat the cause. Seizures where the cause is undetermined are referred to as epileptic.

It's possible your vet mentioned a bunch of tests which you declined. That's fine. Sometimes these things can get very expensive, especially these days. If you wish to pursue a diagnosis, though, and your vet is stumped, the next step might be to ask him or her to refer you to a local neurologist for a full workup.

It's possible they still won't be able to determine a cause. One thing you didn't mention is the breed of your dog, which is important. Another is the age, which has a great significance. For one thing, if your dog is older, a tumor becomes a stronger possibility.

Talk to your vet and see where you want to take it.

By the way, never heard of milk making a difference, but sure, go ahead.

lbender · Sep 15, 2011

Forgot one thing. Hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) can cause seizures, but the main causes of that in dogs are either an overdose of insulin if your dog is a diabetic, or a particular type of pancreatic tumor. If your vet did a chemistry, that can be eliminated as a cause fairly easily.

rugcat · Sep 15, 2011

lbender said:
Phenobarb is a symptomatic drug. It works well, as does potassium bromide and a couple of other things. But, it controls seizures only. It does nothing to treat the cause. Seizures where the cause is undetermined are referred to as epileptic.

Yes. Thanks for making that clear.

It's possible your vet mentioned a bunch of tests which you declined. That's fine. Sometimes these things can get very expensive, especially these days..

We had a fairly comprehensive workup for our dog, but stopped short of a neurological consult as prohibitively expensive and not likely to provide anything of practical use in terms of treatment.

She's a young female, a shelter dog, and probably between 2 and 3 when the seizures first manifested. Our vet said that idiopathic seizures in young female dogs is, unfortunately not all that uncommon.

Puma · Sep 15, 2011

Thanks for the additional information, lbender. Yes, the vet did a variety of blood tests and ruled out things such as toxo and I think also things like West Nile and other mosquito / outdoor pest types of problems. All the tests were negative or nothing with cause for alarm.

Our vet will monitor how he's doing with CBC's and checks of the pheno-barb level in his system (one done already and he was in the therapeutic range) and has also mentioned checking for affects of the pheno-barb on his liver. We'll just play things by ear and see how we progress with the medical attention. We're both retired (and my husband has several medical issues) so we can't afford to go overboard with vet costs - but we'll do the best we can. This is also obviously why I want to rule out any possible things in his environment or food that could be causing problems. It's a lot cheaper (and less stressful) to use different types of household cleaners and puppy treats if that can make a difference.

About him - he's a mixed breed, neutered, supposedly part Australian shepherd, but my husband says the other half had to be Clydesdale. He and his sister (we have her too) both have some black markings on their tongues, but I understand now that more breeds than Chows have black tongues. He looks very much like a St. Bernard without all the hair. He's 3-1/2 years old and the problems started shortly after he turned three. He's always had some character quirks - very much attached to his sister and doesn't want to be away from her. One eye is a bit wider and slightly droopy. His tail was broken before we got him - no idea how. He'll take spells where he's afraid to go upstairs and will talk to us until we come to help him (just with encouragement). He's never afraid to go down the stairs. If he accidentally closes a door to a room and gets trapped inside, he's frantic until he's let out (and has done quite a number on one wood door). So, definetly some signs of insecurity, but on the other hand he is a very good watchdog and not intimidated by people he doesn't know (but takes a long time to warm to them.) Overall he's a lovable lummox who loves to rough-house with his sister and get petted by his people. He's very affectionate.

Thank you again for your response. Puma

rugcat · Sep 15, 2011

Puma said:
He's always had some character quirks - very much attached to his sister and doesn't want to be away from her. One eye is a bit wider and slightly droopy. His tail was broken before we got him - no idea how. He'll take spells where he's afraid to go upstairs and will talk to us until we come to help him (just with encouragement). He's never afraid to go down the stairs. If he accidentally closes a door to a room and gets trapped inside, he's frantic until he's let out (and has done quite a number on one wood door).

Sounds to me like you have a dog with a few issues.

Is there any other kind?

lbender · Sep 15, 2011

rugcat said:
She's a young female, a shelter dog, and probably between 2 and 3 when the seizures first manifested. Our vet said that idiopathic seizures in young female dogs is, unfortunately not all that uncommon.

Your vet is absolutely correct. Idiopathic, by the way, is another word that means 'we don't know what the heck the cause is'.

Puma said:
Thanks for the additional information, lbender. Yes, the vet did a variety of blood tests and ruled out things such as toxo and I think also things like West Nile and other mosquito / outdoor pest types of problems. All the tests were negative or nothing with cause for alarm.

Our vet will monitor how he's doing with CBC's and checks of the pheno-barb level in his system (one done already and he was in the therapeutic range) and has also mentioned checking for affects of the pheno-barb on his liver. We'll just play things by ear and see how we progress with the medical attention. We're both retired (and my husband has several medical issues) so we can't afford to go overboard with vet costs - but we'll do the best we can. This is also obviously why I want to rule out any possible things in his environment or food that could be causing problems. It's a lot cheaper (and less stressful) to use different types of household cleaners and puppy treats if that can make a difference.

About him - he's a mixed breed, neutered, supposedly part Australian shepherd, but my husband says the other half had to be Clydesdale. He and his sister (we have her too) both have some black markings on their tongues, but I understand now that more breeds than Chows have black tongues. He looks very much like a St. Bernard without all the hair. He's 3-1/2 years old and the problems started shortly after he turned three. He's always had some character quirks - very much attached to his sister and doesn't want to be away from her. One eye is a bit wider and slightly droopy. His tail was broken before we got him - no idea how. He'll take spells where he's afraid to go upstairs and will talk to us until we come to help him (just with encouragement). He's never afraid to go down the stairs. If he accidentally closes a door to a room and gets trapped inside, he's frantic until he's let out (and has done quite a number on one wood door). So, definetly some signs of insecurity, but on the other hand he is a very good watchdog and not intimidated by people he doesn't know (but takes a long time to warm to them.) Overall he's a lovable lummox who loves to rough-house with his sister and get petted by his people. He's very affectionate.

Thank you again for your response. Puma

Sounds like you've got it all covered. One thing you may want to try, that we do here, is to talk to a veterinary behaviorist. It won't have any effect on the seizures, but you may be able to make him less anxious and happier.

Carlene · Sep 15, 2011

Re: black tongue. The mixed breed (mostly HUGE) yellow Lab we have now has a mostly black tongue. Our vet said sometimes it just happens. This dog also yodels! I've never had a dog who did that! Mostly when he sees little kids! He obviously wants to play with them. As we decided to have dogs rather than children, I guess I'll have to find a "rent-a-kid" place and fix him up!

Carlene

Puma · Sep 15, 2011

Actually, he's made a lot of progress behavior-wise since we've had him. His hang-ups aren't anywhere as often as they used to be. He knows he's loved and that we will spend the time to talk him up the stairs rather than leave him alone downstairs in the dark (and praise him when he makes it). It always amazes me how long it takes to overcome fears and anxieties that are developed when animals are little. Puma

Puma · Sep 16, 2011

Things went from bad to worse very quickly and we lost him today. Very rough and we're about out of tissues.

Thank you everyone for your responses and suggestions. We appreciate it. Puma

Satori1977 · Sep 16, 2011

I am so sorry for your loss Puma. It is never easy to lose a pet, especially when it is unexpected. It is hard to get closure. But it sounded like you loved your dog very much, and you did everything you could. It does get easier.
I know that is hard to see now. I lost my dog in March. It still hurts very much, and I miss him every day. But I can finally think about the good times we had and smile. Try to hold onto the good memories.

rugcat · Sep 16, 2011

Puma said:
Things went from bad to worse very quickly and we lost him today. Very rough and we're about out of tissues.

Thank you everyone for your responses and suggestions. We appreciate it. Puma

I am so, so sorry.

Carlene · Sep 17, 2011

I'm SO sorry to hear of your loss. I agree. You did everything you could, you loved him and you gave him a wonderful life.

Hugs,

Carlene

lbender · Sep 17, 2011

I'm very sorry for your loss. It's difficult. I don't know if it will help or not, but we sometimes refer clients to the Grief Support Center at Rainbow Bridge.

Here's the link:

http://www.rainbowsbridge.com/Grief_Support_Center/Grief_Support_Home.htm

They know and understand your loss. I hope it helps.

Epileptic Dog

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Carlene

New kid, be gentle!

Brutal Mustang

Loves interplanetary chaos.

kdesanges

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Puma

Retired and loving it!

lbender

lbender

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Puma

Retired and loving it!

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

lbender

Carlene

New kid, be gentle!

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Satori1977

Listening to the Voices In My Head

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Carlene

New kid, be gentle!

lbender