What POV do you use?

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Rise2theTop

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It's simply third person, but writen in the present tense. 'Sara walks down the ramp" rather than "Sara walked down the ramp."

I assumed this, but there doesn't seem to be a definitive description or a concrete POV standard for it.

ETA: When I searched the term, '3rd present', zip came up. So I was like, 'huh?' It's not listed in the 'list' like 1rst past, 1rst present, blah blah... At least not in what I found on a quick search.
Doesn't mean it's not out there at all, as so I've been shown, just not 'out there' out there.

And no...I don't write this either.
 
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Linds

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I often find my first instinct is to write in 1st person - but I seem to manage to make every character a bit whiny. Which is why I lean towards 3rd person limited in my writing instead.
 

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For me writing in 1st POV just doesn't work. I find that as soon as I started thinking in 'I' terms I become the character and my own personality takes over (which just ruins the story...)

Using 3rd POV means I can take a step back and allow my characters to come forward, speaking and acting in their own personalities, telling their story rather than my story...
 

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Well, that went nowhere. LOL. Sigh... (Trying to find evidence of 3rd present used in any abundance, consistently)

What about Kathleen's short, succinct comment did you not understand?

As far as "3rd present used in any abundance, consistently", you may have to continue looking. I can't think of good examples of that use, right now. Maybe somebody else can.

caw
 

cwfgal

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I do want to let you know that I did take everyone's advice and revisit my options. I took the time and spent two 18hr days rewriting three complete chapters in my current WIP. I swapped them to 1rst, then 3rd, then 3rd limited, then omni-present. Fail, fail, fail...fail. None gave me the immediacy, the RTF now factor I want/need for both my MC.

1rst eliminated one completely. 3rd distanced them. 3rd limited gave the closeness, but only for one MC at a time. Omni-present gave me some mulitple POV freedom, but you want to talk about jacking a story around, in and out? Let alone the emotional distance you lose.

So what are you writing in, second? How can all the others fail?

I honestly don't think you understand the subtleties, differences, and overlaps in point of view, voice, and tense. Interior monologue is almost always done in present tense, regardless of what tense the rest of the story uses. So changing from past to present and back again in this situation is quite common. But jumping in and out of heads, and from one head to another isn't. That's because it's almost always confusing, as your examples have been.

Now, 3rd limited allowed the two POV shifts, but what good is that if I have to break from the moment by setting a scene in one POV, then back-track to tell the other MC's side? I've lost the moment IMO.

It's easy if you know how to write well.

When that man's hand is inching up her thigh, I don't want to know 4 paragraphs later what she thought, felt. I wanna know right NOW.

Well, you can jump us straight into her head and give us a one dimensional picture of what she is thinking, or you can paint a multi-dimensional picture using her facial expressions, her body language, her dialogue, and her thoughts. Either way can be done NOW. One is a snack, the other a full course meal. Which one do you think most readers find more fulfilling? It's disconcerting to jump into her head and let us barely start feeling with her and knowing her, only to jerk us out and make us jump into someone else's head.

Some see internal thought as narrative, I see it as dialog. If someone can follow verbal dialog, why can't they follow inner dialog that shifts from one character to another just like they do in a 'conversation'? As long as it's clear who's talking/thinking, what is the issue? If a character is speaking, then has a thought amidst the conversation, AND it's still their 'turn', so to say, to speak, why can't you show real time with the inner thought? If a paragraph has a character reflecting, why can't that character have a real-time thought interjected? We all do it, all the time. Maybe it's because some aren't aware that they do?

We all are aware of our own thoughts all the time. But I don't think any of us are privvy to our own and everyone else's thoughts all the time (those of you with special powers please jump in and prove me wrong). If we were, it would be VERY overwhelming and confusing. It's the same as when you are in a group of people and everyone is talking all at once.


Now, I'm not trying to be condescending, but if someone can't keep track of a real-time inner thought that is within a particular character's dialog or even a particular POV narrative, um...well, I don't really know what to say. To me, it's no different than following a back and forth dialog sequence in ANY written POV.

You may not mean to be condescending, but you certainly come across that way to me. Several times in this thread you have implied that the rest of us must be stupid if we can't see the brilliance of your technique. You are certainly welcome to write your own works any way you want, and maybe someday you'll have some degree of publishing success doing it your way. But please don't imply that the others here who have already achieved that success don't know what they're talking about.

Beth
 

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There's a beautiful book called Leaving Las Vegas that uses third present.
 

Rise2theTop

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So what are you writing in, second? How can all the others fail? No, I am not writing in second. I said the others fail for MY current WIP.
And on the 3rd present, I get it. But I see it's not used often. And what I been shown really isn't my style either...

I honestly don't think you understand the subtleties, differences, and overlaps in point of view, voice, and tense. Please don't assume this. I have a very good grasp. I have written works in all POV and I, like many have some I prefer over others.

Interior monologue is almost always done in present tense, regardless of what tense the rest of the story uses. So changing from past to present and back again in this situation is quite common. To some, this 'switching tense' is not the 'proper' way, yet it is done by many a writer. So I will chalk acceptance of this style to personal taste.

But jumping in and out of heads, and from one head to another isn't. That's because it's almost always confusing, as your examples have been. As I stated earlier, short spurts, out of context, just plopped on a forum page is not the best host for what I write. And I can accept it was confusing to you.

It's easy if you know how to write well.
I will take the high road with this...

Well, you can jump us straight into her head and give us a one dimensional picture of what she is thinking, or you can paint a multi-dimensional picture using her facial expressions, her body language, her dialogue, and her thoughts. Yes, and I do throughout my work. Either way can be done NOW. I agree, but I like to take it a step further. One is a snack, the other a full course meal. Which one do you think most readers find more fulfilling? Depends on the moment and what I want the reader to see.

It's disconcerting to jump into her head and let us barely start feeling with her and knowing her, only to jerk us out and make us jump into someone else's head. I will agree if said jump happens within one character's moment. And if it's one sentence him, the next sentence her, one sentence him, one hers, all in the same paragraph, yes.

We all are aware of our own thoughts all the time. But I don't think any of us are privvy to our own and everyone else's thoughts all the time (those of you with special powers please jump in and prove me wrong).<<Ah, that's the beauty and the power of the written word... As a writer, you can let your reader in on anything you want. Wouldn't you just love to know what another is thinking at times? Of course you do, but you can't. My characters don't know what the other is thinking either, only my reader(when I want them to). My current WIP has two equally important MC's and I want you to know both of them intimately, inside and out. AND, I may interject a sassy ass remark in a minor character's dialog too, but once you get that's how I write, it's not a mind jarring experience, it's expected. But again, my way isn't for everyone. And I know there will always be those that cannot or will not accept this. Which is just fine.

If we were, it would be VERY overwhelming and confusing. It's the same as when you are in a group of people and everyone is talking all at once. To be honest, I love it when there are 5 lively conversations going on at once, and manage quite well in those situations, but I get that some don't.

You may not mean to be condescending, but you certainly come across that way to me. For that, I apologize to you. That statement was not directed at anyone involved in the discussion, not meant a dig. And definitely not meant to imply anyone, here especially, is 'stupid'. But I will say, people have been conditioned to think a certain way and some have a harder time breaking away from the 'norm' and exploring than others. Several times in this thread you have implied that the rest of us must be stupid if we can't see the brilliance of your technique. I have never touted my way is brilliant, just different. I have even admitted I wasn't very successful at 'showing' what I wanted you to see the way I wanted it to come across. You are certainly welcome to write your own works any way you want, and maybe someday you'll have some degree of publishing success doing it your way.But please don't imply that the others here who have already achieved that success don't know what they're talking about. Here I must defend myself. I have never said that those who don't agree or see my position did not know what they were talking about. Not once. As a matter of fact I have stated many times that all opinions given have valid points, have merit. I have expressed that I value those opinions too. I have taken all into consideration, even stepped back and re-evaluated my stance. I understand the purpose of convention. And I have contemplated for hours and hours everyone's position and traditional ways of writing.

But, for ME, stepping outside that box is a better choice for MY story, my style. I see things like this... Innovation, experimentation. What would the world be today without it? You don't know if something will work until you try it. You will always encounter the 'It will never work' naysayers, but sometimes, the light bulb flicks on, and all of a sudden things change to, 'Well, I'll be damned.'

Eh, maybe my way won't work on a grand scale. That's okay. I also know people are hard to budge off the "what it's always been is what it is, should be" wagon. At the same time, how can the world know if they like something if they've never been exposed to it? How can anyone know whether of not the world likes their concept if you don't expose them to what it is you have.
If I don't try, I'll never know if it fails or succeeds.

I think of myself as aspiring to achieve a goal and working hard to make it happen. I will follow my gut and hope my instincts are right. I'm not afraid to go beyond the norm, not afraid of failure. Call it a pipe dream if you will, but so was the telephone, the microchip, going to the moon... All innovation starts out, 'I wonder? Is it possible? They'll think I'm crazy!
But what if it works?' Dreams...we all have them.

And just for kicks and giggles. What if...what if, one crazy day, my way is embraced?

Stranger things have happened.
 
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Linda Adams

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But, for ME, stepping outside that box is a better choice for MY story, my style. I see things like this... Innovation, experimentation. What would the world be today without it? You don't know if something will work until you try it. You will always encounter the 'It will never work' naysayers, but sometimes, the light bulb flicks on, and all of a sudden things change to, 'Well, I'll be damned.'

Eh, maybe my way won't work on a grand scale. That's okay. I also know people are hard to budge off the "what it's always been is what it is, should be" wagon. At the same time, how can the world know if they like something if they've never been exposed to it? How can anyone know whether of not the world likes their concept if you don't expose them to what it is you have.
If I don't try, I'll never know if it fails or succeeds.

I think of myself as aspiring to achieve a goal and working hard to make it happen. I will follow my gut and hope my instincts are right. I'm not afraid to go beyond the norm, not afraid of failure. Call it a pipe dream if you will, but so was the telephone, the microchip, going to the moon... All innovation starts out, 'I wonder? Is it possible? They'll think I'm crazy!
But what if it works?' Dreams...we all have them.

And just for kicks and giggles. What if...what if, one crazy day, my way is embraced?

Stranger things have happened..

I think a lot of it boils down to what works. A lot of times it's easy to get lost in general guidelines versus what works. Sometimes the two aren't the same thing. When I started writing in omni, I was admonished for using the viewpoint. I was told things like it was a hard viewpoint to write and most people get it wrong anyway so I shouldn't even try. I was glad I didn't listen, because it's been a great viewpoint for me. Now I'm seeing a trend of more interest in it.
 

cwfgal

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But, for ME, stepping outside that box is a better choice for MY story, my style. I see things like this... Innovation, experimentation. What would the world be today without it? You don't know if something will work until you try it. You will always encounter the 'It will never work' naysayers, but sometimes, the light bulb flicks on, and all of a sudden things change to, 'Well, I'll be damned.'

And just for kicks and giggles. What if...what if, one crazy day, my way is embraced?
Stranger things have happened.

I guess I'm unsure what "your way" is. If it's getting deep inside characters' minds, that's done all the time. If it's switching POV between scenes, or between dialogue and thoughts, that's been done plenty, too. As for head-hopping, sadly it's done fairly often as well, and at times by very successful writers. None of this is new, or innovative. They are all tools, applied in various ways by different writers, with varying degrees of success.

IMO, if you have readers stepping out of the story to say, "WTF?" because of the way that story is written, that's failure, not success. It's not about "it will never work" naysayers, it's about "this bit doesn't work." And it sounds as if you've had quite a few people read your work and say exactly this. You can choose to ignore that feedback if you want, but it may keep you from achieving success.

Then again, my definition of success may not be yours. I tend to see three different primary goals when it comes to writing fiction: please yourself, please your readers, or please both. I can write something that I love, that feels daring and innovative and fun, but that readers can't relate to. If pleasing myself is my main goal, I have success. I can also write something that readers love, but I don't. If my main goal is to find lots of readers, a wide audience, and perhaps, financial success, then this may meet my definition of success. If my main goal is to write in a way that pleases me, that allows me to grow and try new things, and that produces a product that also pleases a wide audience of readers, then I have to be open to feedback from those others, and accept that not everything I try, or everything I like, works.

I fall pretty firmly into the latter category, but I've also written stuff that falls into the other two from time to time. I'm not trying to pick on you, and far be it for me to tell anyone else what to write, or how to write. My main reason for questioning you is that you say things like, "You don't know if something will work until you try it." But when people then tell you it doesn't work, you make excuses (it's too small a sample), and imply that those people are just too simple, or too stuck in their ways to understand. I don't disagree with the adage quoted above, you won't know if something works until you try it. But I'm also encouraging you to broaden your horizons and consider another: that if you try something and a lot of people say it doesn't work, maybe it doesn't work. Maybe it's time to move on and try something else. Don't get too stuck in your own ways.

Whatever you do, have fun doing it. And it sounds like you have achieved that.

Beth
 

Rise2theTop

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Good Morning cwfgal :D
I guess I'm unsure what "your way" is. If it's getting deep inside characters' minds, that's done all the time. If it's switching POV between scenes, or between dialogue and thoughts, that's been done plenty, too. As for head-hopping, sadly it's done fairly often as well, and at times by very successful writers. None of this is new, or innovative. They are all tools, applied in various ways by different writers, with varying degrees of success.

IMO, if you have readers stepping out of the story to say, "WTF?" because of the way that story is written, that's failure, not success.
It depends on what you define as failure, success, no? Yes, there was the initial "Whoa!" moment, and I definitely said to myself, OMG FAIL! But then, the next moment happened. "But, I couldn't stop turning the pages..." That's success in my world. Basically what happened was, the way I wrote the story had not been encountered (which is even deeper that what's considered DPOV standards, from the POV's of both MC's--right out the chute, so to say, but not with their actions, only with their inner thoughts). That's what threw them, but only for a page or two, until the rhythm set. :D

It's not about "it will never work" naysayers, it's about "this bit doesn't work." And it sounds as if you've had quite a few people read your work and say exactly this. You can choose to ignore that feedback if you want, Actually, at times it was ME who chickened out and said 'I think I want to change it to one POV'! LOL! But I was told NOT to...by all! I swear! but it may keep you from achieving success. <<Well, I understand what you mean here, and of course you can't know this, but honestly, at the risk of sounding pompous, (I'm not, really, I'm not) I have an actual waiting list of buyers for this current piece of work. One that builds every day. Strictly by word of mouth. As this piece was being polished, one of my betas set up site with excerpts and a donation fund to help promote. (With my permission, but have since taken the excerpts off because I changed one of them dramatically and decided to see what happens with just the back cover blurb. Which by the way, seems to be enticing enough to pull someone in.) Days later, I was floored, I mean on the floor, help me I can't get up, floored. (Did I mention I love twitter? LOL) No bullshit here, in days...hundreds of dollars poured in. And the fund is still building. And not from just a few who have money to spare either. Most of it comes in 5-20.00 increments. From strangers. I cry every time I open my email box and see a message that says '5.00 have been added to blah blah, by so and so...' The pressure is on now, baby! And yes, I'm still scared to death...

Then again, my definition of success may not be yours. I tend to see three different primary goals when it comes to writing fiction: please yourself, please your readers, or please both. I can write something that I love, that feels daring and innovative and fun, but that readers can't relate to. If pleasing myself is my main goal, I have success. I can also write something that readers love, but I don't. If my main goal is to find lots of readers, a wide audience, and perhaps, financial success, then this may meet my definition of success. If my main goal is to write in a way that pleases me, that allows me to grow and try new things, and that produces a product that also pleases a wide audience of readers, then I have to be open to feedback from those others, and accept that not everything I try, or everything I like, works.

I fall pretty firmly into the latter category, but I've also written stuff that falls into the other two from time to time. I'm not trying to pick on you, <<I know, and not taken that way, at all. I promise. and far be it for me to tell anyone else what to write, or how to write. <<And I don't feel you are in any way. My main reason for questioning you is that you say things like, "You don't know if something will work until you try it." But when people then tell you it doesn't work, you make excuses (it's too small a sample<<But...but...but....it is! LOL!), and imply that those people are just too simple, or too stuck in their ways to understand. <<Not my intent. I don't disagree with the adage quoted above, you won't know if something works until you try it. But I'm also encouraging you to broaden your horizons and consider another: that if you try something and a lot of people say it doesn't work, maybe it doesn't work. That's just it...the proportionate amount of people that tell me it does work, by far outweighs the ones that don't--in the world of readership, that is. And that's the one whose opinions we strive for, right? Only in the writer's world do the proportions shift in this venture. Can you see where my frustration comes from?
Maybe it's time to move on and try something else. I did, and this is how I came to the place I am today with my writing.
Don't get too stuck in your own ways.
I won't. :)
Whatever you do, have fun doing it. And it sounds like you have achieved that.Beth

As always, it's a pleasure to chat with ya. :D
 
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bkendall

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I believe we've had a lot to think about here. I also believe we have said pretty much all there is to be said. To everyone, I thank you for being courteous in discussion and not allowing my first big thread to become a site of banning. Maybe in a while, we'll pick up the conversation again and discuss how we've changed. But now, I think it's best to leave this one alone. I hope you had as much fun as I did!
 
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