Why do people think editing services make sense?

cwgranny said:

From my experience in the area of paid edits (NONE OF WHICH WERE DONE BY SCAMMERS), they aren't a good idea so I tend to caution new writers and when they come back with "But lots of new writers have gotten them on discussion boards and really liked them." Then I have to ask -- what percentage of those who got the edits went on to sell the book shortly after the edit? I really like it when my Dad says I'm a brilliant poet but it doesn't do much for my career (and I still suck at poetry.) If the percentage who went on to be PUBLISHED as a direct result of the edit is really low, then what they paid for MIGHT BE the illusion of forward motion, not real forward motion. And they might be in that position even though they never got involved with a scammer.

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First of all, I see you used the wrd "paid edit" all the way through, and I am now very wary of this terminology. It seems, to me, that a "paid editor" is somewhat different to a "paid edit". I've never had a "paid edit" and have never knowlingly recommended it; there seems to have been some misunderstanding in the past. SO I'm no longer talking about "paid edits" but about "paid editors".

I have no idea what the situation is in the States and won't make any more assumptions. What I do know is that the vast majority of people writing novels will never get published, with or without a paid editor.

That said, if their passion is writing, and they want to improve their craft, and they go into it aware that the odds are against them, then I see nothing wrong with approaching a COMPETENT editor who can help them further, if that is their preference.

I'm also aware that there may be as many incompetent as competent editors in Britain; who knows. However, the beginning writer here is likely to ask around and shop around; and I think, I hope, anyone with any sense will look at the credentials of an editor they are thinking of paying. I'm assuming that much intelligence and discernment. There are plenty of competent ones around, and most published writers or members in UK discussion forums will know who these are and can make recommendations. I should think that a competent editor would have worked in a well-known publishing house; that might be one criteria. Another one - for me at least - are recommendatios from published authors. I've checked on some of the websites of UK editorial services I know and most of these do have such recommendations. If a would-be writer ignores such pointers and still goes with an obscure (perhaps cheaper) editor then I'd say they get what they deserve.

I'm sure that most people would prefer not to spend money if possible, and I see nothing wrong with critique groups, if that is what you want. I'm sure you're right and they can do a better job than a bad critique service. I'm not sure they can do a better job than a good critique service.

I remember what Jenna said; that publication is not the only goal. The goal is to become a better writer. Sometimes the advice given will be bad, or overlook some points. And yet I feel that every time we work on a manuscript, even if it still isn't publishable, we have learned.

Some authors, including myself, have been helped a great deal by a paid service. I don't think I would have learned so much so quickly through any other method. At the time I had already paid my dues, having struggled for years on a manuscript that never got published, gone the rounds of looking for a publisher and waiting months for a response. I agree that waiting and suffering is a good education; but I didn't feel like doing it again.

By the time I used the service I wasn't even thinking about making my book salable, just about making it good. Perhaps there is just ONE writer out there reading this who feels the way I did, and who can benefit from my experience. All I can say is that at the time I wanted the very best service I could find and I was willing to pay for it. In retrospect I'd do the same thing all over again; it was more than worth it. There are good people out there and they are worth looking for; I have no regrets, and I don't really feel I have much more to say on the subject...

aruna said:

However, I think it would be difficult for a scammer to establish a proper bricks-and-mortar operation in Britain, as the Trading Standards here are extremely vigilant.

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Vigilant or not, scammers do just fine in the UK. I'll give just one example: the plague of fraudulent vanity publishers that afflicts the UK--actually a worse problem than here in the US. These scammers run flourishing bricks-and-mortar businesses; the most persistent of them, if shut down under one name, start up immediately under another.

I will say honestly that I'm a little exasperated with the "not in the UK" idea that seems to be expressed in a number of posts here. There is plenty of literary fraud and incompetence in the UK--less, certainly, than in the US, but as I've noted before, it's a smaller country. As for the implication that UK writers are somehow better informed and more able to avoid the pitfalls...I think new writers everywhere, in every country, are more similar than they are different, and UK writers are no less--and no more--vulnerable to schemes, scams, and incompetence masquerading as professionalism than writers anywhere else. Obviously this is my personal impression, but it's based on a considerable amount of documentary evidence--i.e., the many, many UK writers I hear from through Writer Beware, who are the victims of bad publishers, agents, and others.

- Victoria

Do we all have in mind writers with the same amount of talent and learning? I don't think so. aruna and brinkett had good experiences with editors. I'll bet they were already pretty good at writing, and they were capable of understanding what their editors said and applying it. Most people who want to write a book will never write a salable one, no matter how much coaching they get from a paid editor or anyone else. These are the "new writers" cwgranny's talking about.

reph said:

Do we all have in mind writers with the same amount of talent and learning? I don't think so. aruna and brinkett had good experiences with editors. I'll bet they were already pretty good at writing, and they were capable of understanding what their editors said and applying it.

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Or we chose good editors. Frankly, I have no idea if I'm any good at writing. However, I'm confident that I'm understanding the feedback and applying it appropriately, and the experience has shown me that I have good instincts for what works and what doesn't.

I agree that paying for an edit where the editor makes the changes and the writer accepts them sight unseen is a waste. Otherwise, as long as a writer is willing to learn, I think most writers can improve. They might never sell a manuscript, but they'll learn something.

Victoria,
I'm sorry, I never meant to imply that I know it all, or that your experience is in any way inferior to mine. It seems we come at this from two very extreme positions: you as someone based outside the country who gets to see all the complaints and all the negative stuff going on in the shady corners of British publishing. I come at it from a very naive, blue eyed position, based on a survey of one - myself!

Probably the truth lies somewhere in the middle; Britain is neither a hotbed of scams and incompetence, nor is it a scam-free zone. (In fact, in my eyes Britain is one big legal scam in itself. I could not believe it when I moved here four years ago and found the SAME products we had in germany being sold at three times the price! EVERYTHINg here is too expensive - it's all a perfectly legal ripp-off and nobody seems to mind)

First of all I don't know anything about vanity publishing in GB and I leave all information on this to you. I'd never do it and I think the fewer writers do it the better.

What I was trying to do is put myself inthe position I was in a couple years ago: you've written a book, now where do you turn? I found the answer in the only magazine for writers in Britian, Writers' News with its sister mag Writing; I found a few ads for editorial assessments there, compared their services, and chose what i thought seemed the best. As far as I remember, all the services advertised at that time were legit and good, as I have since heard of them on writers groups being recommended.

This morning I bought a copy of Writing just to see what the position is now. There are only TWO ads this month, one from the very good service I used, and one from what seems a newcomer: http://wordsru.co.uk/index.php?task=home

Looking at their website, It seems to me that they are legit; they name their editors and describe their backgrounds. However, they don't seem very competent to me as far as novel writing goes; none of them seems to have actually worked as a fiction editor before. Though they may be OK for proofreading and copyediting.

So if I were a newbie writer now with my head screwed on properly, it would be obvious which of these two services I would choose - it's a no-brainer! They do give a few examples of published authors - but no names or titles!

When I was looking for help I did not have the internet; so that is a whole new world with all kinds of new possibilities for being taken for a ride, as you rightly state.

All I can repeat to any Brit writer looking for a critique: go with the tried and proven. Ask for recommendations. See which published authors they have worked with. You can even get a "partial" critique which can help you decide, for very little money, if the service is right for you. I suppose it's the same with any service you hire: look for the best you can afford.

I do not want to stir up anymore controversy, nor am I implying that anyone anyone is foolish for using an editing service, BUT...

The discussion would not be complete without a concrete example of the kind of problems you can run into if you don't do your homework. See this:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17203

chrisdodt said:

I wrote a novel. Where do I go from here? I need someone to edit my work before I submit to a publisher, and I want to bypass as much as I can as many rejections as possible. I did some research through Writer's Digest Magazine and came across a few literary agengies who will evaluate, critique, or rewrite, all for fees.

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James D. Macdonald has said that if an agency advertises in Writer's Digest, that's a sure sign that you should avoid them like the plague. Legitimate agencies don't have to advertise because they get enough submissions as it is.

chrisdodt said:

I wrote the novel well, not bragging with blissful ignorance, I just know, yet need feedback from seasoned editors, not just writers. I've already submited my work to one agency for an evaluation. (The cost was minimal) The person who read my work said it was a well written, solid novel, but of course needed to be critiqued before submission. Their critiques cost about a month's net salary. ($3000) The agency was Greenleaf literary services.

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Is that this company? From what I tell, this is a manuscript evaluation/critique service and not an agency. This guy might be good at what he does. (For that much money, he should be marking the manuscript with gold ink.) But he is not a literary agency.

Also, for the future, please keep in mind that ... Legitimate agencies do not charge fees.

And $3000 is way too much for a critique service, unless that service has a very very good reputation. He might be a very well respected book doctor. I have no way of knowing.

chrisdodt said:

I just started this forum and would appreciate some feedback from anyone who does this kind of service, perhaps for less, or will a simple critique forum suffice?

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That seems to depend on the critique forums you can find and the t ype of writer you are. I'd say start checking out the forums first and find out if they work for you. And if they do, you won't be out any money.

Before you even think of hiring a book doctor or editor, read this Writer Beware article.

Also, read their article on agents.

chrisdodt said:

I wrote a novel. Where do I go from here? I need someone to edit my work before I submit to a publisher, and I want to bypass as much as I can as many rejections as possible. I did some research through Writer's Digest Magazine and came across a few literary agengies who will evaluate, critique, or rewrite, all for fees.

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Never pay a LITERARY agency to evaluate your work. That's not their job. If they think your work has potential, they MAY help you improve it, but they won't charge you for it. My experience has been that this isn't too likely for a first novel.

The subject of hiring an independent editor has been debated thoroughly in this thread. If you haven't read the whole thing, do so. Some are in favor of paid editing, others are adamantly opposed. All agree you have to do your homework before hiring anyone.

Personally, I'm not convinced that rejections are a bad thing or avoiding them a good thing. Over the last four years, my first novel has been rejected over 75 times by agents and publishers. After each round of rejections, I've taken a fresh look at the manuscript and discovered major flaws, which I've then corrected. It's been slow and messy, but I've grown as a writer as a result.

Is this right for everyone? Possibly not, but it's worked for me. My latest rejection was in the form of a call (!) from the publisher. She said my novel had problems, but she was going to return it with a detailed analysis (no charge), and if I corrected it, I could resubmit.

This has made the slow struggle worth it. There is no question in my mind that the changes I've made to improve the novel are my own. I don't have to wonder if the writing is really mine or the result of some editor.

aruna said:

I have no idea what the situation is in the States and won't make any more assumptions. What I do know is that the vast majority of people writing novels will never get published, with or without a paid editor.

That said, if their passion is writing, and they want to improve their craft, and they go into it aware that the odds are against them, then I see nothing wrong with approaching a COMPETENT editor who can help them further, if that is their preference.

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I do not think it probable that, when writers pay hundreds (or more likely thousands) of dollars for a full-scale edit by a good editor, they're primarily motivated by a pious desire to improve their craft. I think they believe their book, thus edited, will find publication.

A very few of them will be right. But as you yourself observe, most will never be published. Their books aren't salvageable, no matter how much editing they get.

Do the authors understand that? They do not. These are the people whose manuscripts make up the bulk of the slush pile. Their inability to judge the quality of their own work is nothing short of legendary.

This is why the sale of editorial services plays such a major role in author scams: Naive authors desire it, thinking it will render them publishable. It's very expensive. Often, the marks can be charged top rates for substandard work, and never know the difference. Best of all, the prospective customers are by their very nature unable to judge the efficacy and utility of the work. A secondary effect is that it freshens up the victim. When a writer has determined that his or her manuscript is unsaleable in its current condition, they become immune to a wide range of scams. Selling them an edit puts those scams back into play.

This is why I'll continue to say that for most authors, hiring an outside editor is a bad idea. Once in a while, it does someone some good. In most cases, they just get their pockets picked.

That's why scammers are forever putting out the idea that you have to have your manuscript professionally edited before you can submit it for publication. (Are you listening, Chris Dodt?) That notion is false, but it's very profitable for them to have newbie authors believe it.

How prevalent is this fraud? Here's the bottom line: Scamhunters use "you have to have your manuscript professionally edited" as a genetic marker for scammers. It's that reliable.

chrisdodt said:

I just started this forum and would appreciate some feedback from anyone who does this kind of service, perhaps for less, or will a simple critique forum suffice?

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Join a critique workshop. Once I finish and revise my current ms. a few times, I'm going to join one of them.

Here are some that get good grades from a lot of writers:

http://www.critiquecircle.com This one's free.

http:///www.critters.org Free, but specifically for sci fi/fantasy/horror.

http://www.onlinewritingworkshop Not free, for sci fi/fantasy/horror, but
you get your first critique right away
instead of having to wait.

There are other ones, of course. The SFWA website has a listing of some you might want to look into in addition to the ones I mention above:

http://www.sfwa.org/links/workshops.htm

Good luck - and do your research before you pay out any more dough.

~ Nancy

HapiSofi said:

I do not think it probable that, when writers pay hundreds (or more likely thousands) of dollars for a full-scale edit by a good editor, they're primarily motivated by a pious desire to improve their craft. I think they believe their book, thus edited, will find publication.

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I can see that point of view prevailing. It's the natural human tendency. While there are of course writers who will figure out how to get a good editor and will make the best use of that editor... most aspiring writers won't be able to do that. I know that when I was starting out, if I had gotten a professional edit, I would have ignored a lot of it because I was not ready to hear it yet.

HapiSofi said:

How prevalent is this fraud? Here's the bottom line: Scamhunters use "you have to have your manuscript professionally edited" as a genetic marker for scammers. It's that reliable.

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Wow. I looked up the exact phrase "have your manuscript professionally edited" on Google and got 105 hits. And you do not "have" to have your manuscript professional edited! And yes, I know there's a writing book out there that claims that you have to get your manuscript professional edited, but keep in mind that it was written by a book doctor.

By the way, another critique group on-line is Forward Motion at:
http://fmwriters.com

As an editor, I'd like to help you find your voice, clean up all the clutter and misfires so nobody knows they ever happened, and make good writing great.

Many authors hire an editor thinking "I wrote some half-a** shit and don't feel like working any more. Make it great, make me published, make me rich."

Afraid it doesn't work that way. I happen to be very fortunate in that the best editor I've ever known is my wife. But that's not why I married her. But all authors need some input, and more people are probably better. "Workshop!" says the first page of this thread. I agree. That's how I got published. Workshopping and, most importantly, listening. Not always agreeing, but always thinking about it. To turn away genuine honest and even free input is just dumb.

In the late 1980s, Edit Ink scammed me out of over $500. Grr!

About a year later, an agent charged me $50 to edit my first 50 pages. And yeah yeah, agent who edits, red flag, run don't walk. But in his case, he taught me tremendous lessons about writing and self-editing which were worth more than $50. I like to think he wasn't a very successful agent, because he was a damn fine editor.

(On the last 30 of my 50 pages, he just kept writing "why are they still in the house?" and "get out of the house" and "they would leave the house." He was right. I just had to laugh, hard.)

Consider, too, that I can probably earn $50 in royalties on the book he edited. $500, probably not even in today's dollars.

Ya gotta get that input somewhere. Rejection letters are a bit lacking in detail. If you get that input by hiring an editor, that editor SHOULD be teaching you how to self-edit the manuscript you've hired him/her for and your future manuscripts as well. Also, price shop.

Finally, I am not shilling for business. I've retired from fiction editing. I edit business documents now, because usually the source of income isn't the document itself and they've got more money to spend. I can probably still proofread your manuscript, but you might get a better price from a university student. Or so the anecdotes tell me. I've never hired one.

Either way, keep on writing! Only you can write your story your way in your voice.

I'm only just beginning my 51st year as a paid writer and editor, so feel free to discount what I say on the basis of "What does he know?" ... but I think you're drawing some overly broad generalizations from a narrow set of particulars. One thought: an editors is not a writer and a writer is not an editor, so your effort to equate writer and editor with painter-painter and engineer-engineer doesn't quite fit. In the business in which I've done most of my writing and editing (news), every news story went through copy editing and rewriting as a matter of absolute, no-exceptions course. I don't know how it is with book publishers (other than me, having self-published five books, two in tech and three on screenwriting), but I wish I could have afforded editors for those books, but I wrote all five to help my publishing companies pay the bills.

You commented: "And more importantly, even if he found an editor who could help him, he would not be learning how to make those improvements to his own writing." That strikes me as a strange conclusion. How is it that a newbie writer can't learn by looking at the edits done by a (presumed) professional? Isn't that exactly what teachers do when they correct papers?

These days, one of my lines of business is proofreading screenplays. Visit my screenplay proofreading service page and scroll down to the first unsolicited testimonial, and you can see vividly what a bit of copy editing and a few editorial comments did for a screenwriter who hadn't sold a screenplay before (http://screenwritingcommunity.net/proofread.your.screenplay.html) -- helped him to a six-figure sale in two weeks.

I suspect that if all I did was proofread and provide no notes, some of my clients might not bother to look at what was changed and learn, but most do. One of my screenwriting clients, a good and prolific aspiring screenwriter from an English-speaking African country, has retained me to proof five of his works. By the third, I was seeing that he was following the suggestions I made in his first two.

I would just never hire an editor that wasn't recommended to me by other experienced authors.

gingerwoman said:

I would just never hire an editor that wasn't recommended to me by other experienced authors.

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This.

insi 10, you do know you're addressing posters in a thread that's more than five years old, don't you?

insi10 said:

I'm only just beginning my 51st year as a paid writer and editor, so feel free to discount what I say on the basis of "What does he know?" ... but I think you're drawing some overly broad generalizations from a narrow set of particulars. One thought: an editors is not a writer and a writer is not an editor,

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I guess even someone starting their 51st year as a paid editor can make a mistake or two, but since you're using this post to highlight your proofreading skills, you might want to do a read-through before you hit "post."

And every writer IS their own editor. You aren't the final editor or the copyeditor, but you DO need to be able to edit your submission draft without outside help.