Virtues and Vices

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 23, 2011

For a fantasy story, I wanted to base my religion on abstract tenets, and I've decided that virtues and vices are the way to go.

So, I'm hoping people could suggest some virtues and vices to me. I've got a list, of course, partially based off of the 7 deadly sins and the 7 heavenly virtues, but I'm also looking for some out-of-the-box thinking. What other abstract ideals might make good virtues and vices?

Satchan · Feb 23, 2011

Hmm...it really depends on the society it's set in. Different things are considered virtues and vices in different cultures. For example, in Japanese culture, it's considered extremely rude to boast about your family members, so you always talk very humbly about them and their accomplishments. In America, however, if someone says "Your sister did a great job in her fencing tournament!" and you say, "Well, she wasn't that great..." they'd consider THAT impolite. The difference is that American culture is a far more individualistic culture than Japanese, so when you compliment your family members, it isn't considered to be bragging. Individualism and pride are viewed as virtues, whereas they could be viewed as flaws in Japan.

So what does your society value? If it values money and getting ahead quite highly, greed won't be looked down upon too much. If it likes the concept of justice, special treatment for a certain group of people might be considered anathema.

....don't know if that really answers your question, but I guess the short answer is that 'virtues' and 'vices' are dependent on the culture in which they exist.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 23, 2011

Yeah, it is culturally motivated. Below is a list of the 42 Aspects looked to in my con-religion. The last 14 are sort of independent of the good or bad thing. Most of them can go either way. (Attributes is a really crappy name, so if anyone has suggestions on that!)

The 14 Virtues
1. Truth
2. Honor
3. Courage
4. Compassion
5. Faith
6. Duty
7. Humility
8. Justice
9. Openness
10. Sacrifice
11. Loyalty
12. Mercy
13. Purity
14. Wisdom

The 14 Vices
1. Falsehood
2. Greed
3. Cowardice
4. Cruelty
5. Envy
6. Sloth
7. Vainglory/Hubris
8. Cynicism
9. Lust
10. Gluttony
11. Betrayal
12. Wrath
13. Corruption
14. Foolishness

The 14 Attributes
1. Love
2. Diligence
3. Patience
4. Knowledge
5. Despair
7. Innocence
8. Reverence
8. Freedom
9. Desire
10. Joy
11. Pride
12. Sorrow
13. Hope
14. Neutrality

GregS · Feb 23, 2011

Virtues:
Piousness
Forgiveness
Humor
Punctuality
Good Hygiene
Lighting matches in the loo

Vices
Judgment (al-ity-ness)
Scorn
Preconception
Double-Dipping
Saying "Irregardless"
Holding spouse's head under the covers after flatulence

Euan H. · Feb 23, 2011

'Openness' could make for some interesting situations. Someone with strong religious beliefs standing in front of a corrupt and incompetent King, who says 'say, what do you think of the job so far?'

Canotila · Feb 24, 2011

Maybe parsimony vs. charity?

Reziac · Feb 24, 2011

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Yeah, it is culturally motivated. Below is a list of the 42 Aspects looked to in my con-religion. The last 14 are sort of independent of the good or bad thing. Most of them can go either way. (Attributes is a really crappy name, so if anyone has suggestions on that!)

Looks like they form 14 triads of attributes (which is an okay term in itself) -- a positive, a negative, and an aspect (or outcome). That might form the basis of an astrology-like way of marking or defining people, things, events, whatever is important to them.

Maxx · Feb 24, 2011

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Yeah, it is culturally motivated. Below is a list of the 42 Aspects looked to in my con-religion. The last 14 are sort of independent of the good or bad thing. Most of them can go either way. (Attributes is a really crappy name, so if anyone has suggestions on that!)

The 14 Virtues
1. Truth
2. Honor
3. Courage
4. Compassion
5. Faith
6. Duty
7. Humility
8. Justice
9. Openness
10. Sacrifice
11. Loyalty
12. Mercy
13. Purity
14. Wisdom

The 14 Vices
1. Falsehood
2. Greed
3. Cowardice
4. Cruelty
5. Envy
6. Sloth
7. Vainglory/Hubris
8. Cynicism
9. Lust
10. Gluttony
11. Betrayal
12. Wrath
13. Corruption
14. Foolishness

The 14 Attributes
1. Love
2. Diligence
3. Patience
4. Knowledge
5. Despair
7. Innocence
8. Reverence
8. Freedom
9. Desire
10. Joy
11. Pride
12. Sorrow
13. Hope
14. Neutrality

For attributes: graces

canis.dirus · Feb 24, 2011

I would not consider lust a vice. Sometimes it is just lust.
And love could be either. Depending on how you act on it.
Honour can also be both a vice and a virtue. You could have someone who is on the 'wrong' side who has great honour.

Maxx · Feb 24, 2011

canis.dirus said:
I would not consider lust a vice. Sometimes it is just lust.
And love could be either. Depending on how you act on it.
Honour can also be both a vice and a virtue. You could have someone who is on the 'wrong' side who has great honour.

Desire is among the attributes so Lust must be other than just lust.

Xelebes · Feb 24, 2011

It should be Envy and Jealousy, not Envy and Lust. Envy is negative lust where one seeks to destroy oneself while jealousy is envy that lusts the ruin of another.

Reziac · Feb 24, 2011

On closer look, it seems to me these attributes are not so much the usual "opposites" as one side generally being "open and sharing" and the other side being "closed and grasping". Thus some pairings (or triads) that don't seem quite the expected. I'm good with this, it's just one more bit of worldbuilding.

Camilla Delvalle · Feb 24, 2011

If you want to comprehend virtue ethics you might like to read The Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 24, 2011

Some interesting commentary, thank you. Some of the nuances have been hard to distinguish. For example, Xelebes' comment on envy, jealousy, and lust.

It would be awesome if I could break these lists down into triads, but I'm not sure they're ordered enough. I'd also like to break the fourteen into two sets of seven.

I like Maxx's name "graces", although it might be a bit too positive for the attributes.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 24, 2011

canis.dirus said:
I would not consider lust a vice. Sometimes it is just lust.
And love could be either. Depending on how you act on it.
Honour can also be both a vice and a virtue. You could have someone who is on the 'wrong' side who has great honour.

I don't necessarily consider lust a vice in and of itself, either. But it's not about what I think. It's about what the people in the story think.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 24, 2011

Euan H. said:
'Openness' could make for some interesting situations. Someone with strong religious beliefs standing in front of a corrupt and incompetent King, who says 'say, what do you think of the job so far?'

I was thinking more that openness would be about how you percieve new ideas. Your example I think would fall under truth, in this set-up. I fee like there's a more specific word than openness here, but I can't think of what it is.

Two major focuses in this religion are internal vs. external, and permanent vs. transient. It's not really a good versus evil religion, which may account for reziac's observation. So, if that helps suggest some possible alterations...

Anyone have a good synonym for "grace" with a similar feeling to how virtue opposes vice?

Buffysquirrel · Feb 24, 2011

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I was thinking more that openness would be about how you percieve new ideas. Your example I think would fall under truth, in this set-up. I fee like there's a more specific word than openness here, but I can't think of what it is.

Receptiveness?

desertbob · Mar 2, 2011

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I don't necessarily consider lust a vice in and of itself, either. But it's not about what I think. It's about what the people in the story think.

Not to sidetrack the conversation, but I thought this definition for lust was pretty interesting (erm, hope this is not too explicit for this forum - but it is a scientific treatment of the phenomenon):

[L]ust is usefully distinguished from sexual arousal (e.g., erect penis, swollen clitoris) and sexual behavior (e.g., intercourse, oral copulation). The awareness of one’s own physical stimulation does not necessarily entail desire for sexual union, although arousal can be either a precursor to or a consequence of lust. One can experience lust without concomitant physical arousal. Similarly, sexual activity can occur with or without lust. The experience of lust may motivate sexual activity, or sexual activity may breed lust that leads to further sexual activity. [But] sometimes the lust object does not desire sexual activity with the lustful person and sexual union is thwarted."

From a Scientific American blog which is pretty interesting in its own right, https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=my-lust-2011-02-14

So maybe the distinction between desire (virtue) and lust (vice) lies in the one being reciprocated or welcomed, and the other not?

Stormhawk · Mar 2, 2011

In my 'verse, I use the seven sins/seven virtues, and have them wondering around as anthropomorphic personifications. However...I'm treating the sins like something inherently bad, or to be avoided, they're just a natural part of life.

Like, recently, I wrote a sequence where one of my characters (if you ignore the fact that he's a jerk, one of the good guys) is given the energy to break out of a coma by Wrath (so that he can then go break faces), and it's not filled with fifteen pages of angsting about being favoured by a Sin.

Hypatia · Mar 15, 2011

I use the following virtues. They are each associated with different deities.

courage and duty to country
honor and discipline
honesty and scholarship
hospitality, courtesy, and loyalty to family
patience, compassion, and marital fidelity
industriousness and steadfastness
joy and civilization
justice and prudence
trustworthiness and temperance

Randman · Mar 23, 2011

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Some interesting commentary, thank you. Some of the nuances have been hard to distinguish. For example, Xelebes' comment on envy, jealousy, and lust.

It would be awesome if I could break these lists down into triads, but I'm not sure they're ordered enough. I'd also like to break the fourteen into two sets of seven.

I like Maxx's name "graces", although it might be a bit too positive for the attributes.

As I read your intent I find it an interesting concept. Your virtues and vices fit well, but like you said "attributes" could be something better. With "graces" it is a positive connotation, not all bad, but doesn't fit just right either.

When I look at what you are trying to attempt to do, I find that your attributes for your characters are more like "expectations". A girl finds a prince charming with the expectation of romance or love, if depressed brokenhearted or sorrow. A main character facing dire circumstances would have the expectation of despair or hope.

Each of your attributes is an expectation of an emotion or a reflection to the situation that is to be resolved one way or another collecting a gain or loss to a virtue or a vice. Developing the character more towards the out of balance, rather than in balance between the opposing forces.

Just my humble opinion, but if it helps, then great and good luck.

TheImmaterial · Mar 24, 2011

The handy dandy Aristotelian system for establishing virtues and vices: think of a quality, think of it occurring deficiently, think of it occurring in excess and you have your two vices. Think of what occurs at just the right amount in between them (the golden mean) and you have your virtue.

E.g.
(not enough--------just right--------too much)
cowardice---------courage--------foolhardiness
buffoonery---------wittiness---------boorishness
self-indulgence--------temperance--------------insensibility
shyness---------modesty------------shamelessness

He does go on to list some weird ones like having the right speaking voice (not too loud, not too soft) and then you have the problem of 'justice' or 'accuracy' as virtues that don't seem to occur as a mean between deficiency and excess but it’s a pretty good framework for generating some virtues/vices.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Virtues and Vices

Liosse de Velishaf

Satchan

Cake or death?

Liosse de Velishaf

GregS

Euan H.

Unspeakable

Canotila

Sever your leg please.

Reziac

Resident Alien

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

canis.dirus

Maxx

Got the hang of it, here

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

Reziac

Resident Alien

Camilla Delvalle

Dreaming of other times

Liosse de Velishaf

Liosse de Velishaf

Liosse de Velishaf

Buffysquirrel

desertbob

Killing time, damning eternity

Stormhawk

Angry Bunny Girl

Hypatia

Randman

Movie Nut

TheImmaterial