Bridging Facts

Rachel Udin · Feb 25, 2011

My time period: 47-48 CE.

Genre: Political High Epic Historical Fantasy (I know High fantasy and Historical seem to clash... I'll get to that in a second.)

Setting: India, Kushan Empire, Garak/Gaya in what is now Korea and side countries mentioned are Greece, China and Japan. (I couldn't escape that due to the silk Road.)

Lose Plotline: Kushan Princess has a vision in the form of a dream and goes to Gaya (in Korea) to become their Queen. She is promised by her Gods that she will become powerful. But when she gets there she finds the country is small and in the midst of a war with her husband's childhood friend.

The fantasy element has high fantasy elements all over it including spirits, Gods, Animism, and also separation between sexes on magic--since it roughly was that way in the original text. Also because I'm pretty sure people are ignorant of the terminology that I'm using and most of the population will assume that it's not set on Earth. I blame the education system. I'm also refusing to call it "Korea" and "India" Because that makes no sense for the given time period and there were kingdoms within it. I'm calling China, Zhongguo... because it wasn't really "China" yet. And Japan, I'm debating over. (The nomer Nihon came later.) Yes, so historically accurate some people will assume that it's completely fantasy. =P

The issue I have is that though I've been hitting up experts for the time period the current information is thin for that time.

For example, Sanskrit is no longer a live language. Pakrit is no longer really spoken. And facts about the Kushan empire are kinda thin. (At least from the help I got from my Northern Indian friend and from google, which is NOT turning out almighty. Kushan.org is about as deep as I could get.)

This means for the really cool story I want to tell based on the Samguk Yusa and extensive research, I'll need to fudge a bunch of facts. Things like architecture.

I've tried hitting up a few experts in the field as well, but they aren't getting back to me or just don't know. (It's that obscure.) Also the time period is heavily debated being so old. (My Indian friend who lives in India said I won't win in India--making jokes about it because of the disputed history.)

I got down the clothing (almost--I need an Indian clothing expert), the food, climate, and basic world events that could have influenced the kingdoms in question. But details like telling time, architecture, current gods for that area, structure of the palace are all big question marks. More stuff they didn't have rather than stuff they had. (Pillars yes, Ionic, doric or Corinthian--no idea. Arches, yes. pointed? No. Mosaic floors--don't know. Islamic influences, no. Stupas yes. As a palace, no. And so on.)

So how to fudge things? How much murder can I get away with since the experts don't seem to really know? And how to fudge convincingly. Usually I just make it up... but at the same time I don't want to garner "You didn't research--that's totally unconvincing." I can't skip over some of the facts... that's like raping the culture without getting the culture right at all. So how to gloss that over in the best way possible?

This is probably a n00b question. I'm usually in the Women's Lit and SFF sections.

Puma · Feb 25, 2011

Hi Rachel - I'm sort of surprised you're having that much problem. Have you exhausted all the archaeological series that were put out in the last fifty years - the ones that only look at one culture in one book? If nothing else, I'd think you might get some leads from them.

Fudging - as an example, from the few examples of architecture you may be able to find, you should be able to make some inferences, e.g. anyone looking at an Aztec temple would infer that their houses were probably square and squat; looking at the ruins of Anghor (sp?) Vat you'd probably infer that their houses might have had peaked doorways and openings.

I think you may have to collect as much as you can on any of the subjects, and then make the most logical inference you can from the evidence. Hope that helps. Puma

Blue236 · Feb 25, 2011

It might help if you can get your hands on some climate data of that time period. Climate played a huge influence on such things as architecture, living conditions, clothing, and so on. As far as looking into if certain materials such as tile, you might want to do research into when the different materials were used and how they were created. I know it might add a lot more research into your story.

I think if you take a sideways approach on the research by researching the history of the details you might be able to close a few of those gaps.

For the Gods, if you can't find too much information about them, I would suggest drawing some inspiration from the Greeks and Egyptians. If you notice their Gods were similar in things they were responsible for like controlling the weather. So you could take the basic things that humans had no control over and convert them to God or Goddess powers. But they might not take the human form, like with the Dragons in China or the Goddess worshiped in India (I can't remember her name.) Some of the powers should lend themselves to one gender or the other.

Rain Gnome · Feb 25, 2011

For the architecture of that period there is definitely a fusion of traditional stupa with Hellenistic techniques creeping in. This picture kind of shows how the stupa-form could be combined into a larger structure of that era. Probably assume that palace and temple construction followed the same progression, with the buildings becoming more advanced around the stupa-form.

Hellenistic influences would have added things like colonnades and the statues adorning the buildings. Look at the type of Greco-Bhuddist art that has been found in India. They've found very highly detailed Corinthian style columns, so you can probably assume both Doric and Ionic were also widely used for different effect just like anywhere else. I know that your story takes place after the Hellenistic age, but the art and architecture endured there just as it did everywhere, while also evolving in a localized way. The most unfortunate thing is that most of the architecture and literature of that period is gone.

The type of arches used are called corbel arches. It's not a true arch, but that's what was used basically everywhere in the ancient world. Depending on the size of the blocks used, they don't have to be strictly pointy, and they could be polished and rounded and simulate a real arch.

Rachel Udin · Feb 27, 2011

Rain Gnome said:
For the architecture of that period there is definitely a fusion of traditional stupa with Hellenistic techniques creeping in. This picture kind of shows how the stupa-form could be combined into a larger structure of that era. Probably assume that palace and temple construction followed the same progression, with the buildings becoming more advanced around the stupa-form.

Hellenistic influences would have added things like colonnades and the statues adorning the buildings. Look at the type of Greco-Bhuddist art that has been found in India. They've found very highly detailed Corinthian style columns, so you can probably assume both Doric and Ionic were also widely used for different effect just like anywhere else. I know that your story takes place after the Hellenistic age, but the art and architecture endured there just as it did everywhere, while also evolving in a localized way. The most unfortunate thing is that most of the architecture and literature of that period is gone.

The type of arches used are called corbel arches. It's not a true arch, but that's what was used basically everywhere in the ancient world. Depending on the size of the blocks used, they don't have to be strictly pointy, and they could be polished and rounded and simulate a real arch.

Thanks--the major problem I have is with the palace. Because by that time period the dominant group would have come from Kadphises... by then he had influences from Greek (as shown on his coins) the local populations and so on. I can infer that pillars probably were a big deal from reports of local temples, etc.

If he was borrowing from the greco-roman, would they have proper arches, or would that also come later?

I mainly need a palace and the smaller village architecture more than the temples, which I have sources for.

I have a hard time believing that he would make his palace a stupa... ^^;; Maybe that's backwards of me to believe, but with all those heavy influences and admiration of all those cultures clashing, I don't think it would look like a stupa...they just don't have the psychological effect like some other structures... (He was also Yuezhi)

Rain Gnome · Feb 28, 2011

What I meant by making their palaces from stupas was the evolution of the single stupa by basically stacking them and combining them into impressive structures. I know Angkor Wat comes much later, but as an example, it is essentially a multitude of large and small stupas (or pagodas) assembled together to form the entire temple structure. The influences from the west are still observable in it, with the long colonnades joining all the different sections of the temple together. In a palace like this, look at how much architecture and decoration is derived from the original stupa-form, just secularized.

The importance of the stupa to Indian society is what some archaeologists would call part of a culture's "Great Tradition" which are sets of beliefs, values, ideology or symbolism that define the culture from any other, and which ultimately can't be removed from the society without removing the culture itself. So even with the clashing cultures of that period, they would still build things in their own style and their own symbolism, while using some western inspiration. Although something like this is amazingly identical to the Greek style. Compare that temple to the Erechtheum on the Acropolis of Athens I'd try googling 'indian palace' and build something from the pictures you get from that, but not so massive and opulent.

The Greeks knew how to build proper arches, but didn't use them that much in their buildings. I guess it might be probable by that time for the roman arch to spread to India, but you'd really have to talk to an Indian archaeologist or something to know for sure about something that specific. In fact, that might be the most profitable thing to do.

Rachel Udin · Mar 2, 2011

Rain Gnome said:
What I meant by making their palaces from stupas was the evolution of the single stupa by basically stacking them and combining them into impressive structures. I know Angkor Wat comes much later, but as an example, it is essentially a multitude of large and small stupas (or pagodas) assembled together to form the entire temple structure. The influences from the west are still observable in it, with the long colonnades joining all the different sections of the temple together. In a palace like this, look at how much architecture and decoration is derived from the original stupa-form, just secularized.

The importance of the stupa to Indian society is what some archaeologists would call part of a culture's "Great Tradition" which are sets of beliefs, values, ideology or symbolism that define the culture from any other, and which ultimately can't be removed from the society without removing the culture itself. So even with the clashing cultures of that period, they would still build things in their own style and their own symbolism, while using some western inspiration. Although something like this is amazingly identical to the Greek style. Compare that temple to the Erechtheum on the Acropolis of Athens I'd try googling 'indian palace' and build something from the pictures you get from that, but not so massive and opulent.

The Greeks knew how to build proper arches, but didn't use them that much in their buildings. I guess it might be probable by that time for the roman arch to spread to India, but you'd really have to talk to an Indian archaeologist or something to know for sure about something that specific. In fact, that might be the most profitable thing to do.

Thanks. I got an archaeologist and she helped. She said most likely it would be a rounded arch, no harems, maybe vaulted ceilings, they haven't found a palace yet. And there is very little evidence from furniture, rugs or decoration. (Just didn't survive if there were any.) There was also no evidence for separation of men's and women's quarters... but then they hadn't found a palace from that time period. (All palaces I know of across cultures have that separation.)

But the basic question does remain, how do you infer and infer well in a convincing way?

pfunk · Mar 2, 2011

Rachel, have you come across the Qila Mubarak fort? It was built by a Kushan emperor and may give some insight into the architecture. There seemed to be some pictures available on Wikipedia.

Bridging Facts

Rachel Udin

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Blue236

New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin

Rain Gnome

Two Thumbs Up

Rachel Udin

Rain Gnome

Two Thumbs Up

Rachel Udin

pfunk