Can I get a heads up to tell me if this might be an appropriate place to post?

In the past, I've posted mainly in Basic "Writing", "Novels" and SYW.

As I explain briefly below, I'm now planning and doing research for what at first glance might be an historical novel...but might be a standard mainstream.

What follows is a very brief extract from my post today in "Novels". I know it's vague.
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In various forms, I've been working on my current WIP over the years, and intensely for about the last 6 months. This morning I junked it. What a relief!!!!

Writing shapes up again as being interesting. I was also able to hit on my next novel topic, or perhaps even a series -- I'll wait and see.

I plan to write a fictional inter-generational family story based on (but not an exact chronological study) my own family. I completed the research several years ago, but I've had a blind spot as far as writing this went.

The period of the story runs approximately from the Irish Rebellion in the late 1700s, to the convict settlement in Sydney and elsewhere in Australia, until the roughly 1923.

I have 9 ancestors transported from the UK to Australia in the 18th century. All have interesting stories to tell. Some members of subsequent generations also had interesting lives. So I asked myself, why not use this as source material for a novel?

I suppose most writing can have elements of historicity, but this will be my first for including so much "real" history told as fiction. So, I'm excited about this project.

And it's back to researching how to write historical-type novels.
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Significant historical research confirms that this might well justify a multi-volume story. That thought doesn't bother me. I've written several stories 100,000+ words.

These are what I would really appreciate comments on:

1. I've never written historical-based stories. Any pit-falls to took for?

2. I've never written multi-volume works before. Obvious, to my inexperienced mind, it seems that planning, outlining and linking the volumes is important. Any guidelines you might care to offer?

3. I plan to base my story on my ancestors, not necessarily make my ancestors major characters. No reason other than until I prove otherwise to myself, I believe I'll get a stronger and more interesting story, if I stick to incontestable facts in which I place characters based on my ancestors. Any comments on the wisdom or otherwise of adopting this approach?

4. Is there such a thing as a "standard" length of an historical-type novel?

5. Finally, is this even the right forum in which I should post?

Thank you Firedrake and Puma. I found your comments to be exactly what I'm looking for.

So, based on your recommendations, I'll plan for one volume only.

Not having lived in Ireland might be a challenge, but I'm reasonably comfortable I can deal with it. Ireland, as far as it could be relevant to my Irish ancestor William, probably only needs to cover about 3 months, most of which he spent in gaol.

Places where he may have been captured have detailed descriptions, so I can probably adapt from there.

I may find I need to establish the conditions under which the Catholics lived in C18 Ireland. I can possibly do that before William was captured by putting him in "strategic planning" sessions where it is logical that many such things might be discussed; perhaps as atrocities which motivate the rebels. Anyway, I'm sure I'll find ways to effectively do that without info dumps.

I'm aware of the need for accuracy and attention to historical detail. I'm hoping that won't be an issue. It took me almost 7 years to research and write my family history, and I'm sure there is more on the Internet now than there was then. Well, at least I hope so.

Definitely have one character who will come as less than honorable in line with what happened in history. His time period is late C19-early C20. He was a womaniser, to put it mildly, was gaoled and sentenced to death for what was then called "rape upon his daughter". Fortunately, I still have the transcripts of his trial. I think I would find difficulty in describing him as an "honorable person".

"What your relatives might say about doing dishonorably" dealing with him. That should not be an issue. He was my great-grandfather, died 1923, so there is no one alive now who knew him. I have never been able to contact any of his direct descendants -- all his children were placed in foster care, and so were never in close contact with their father.

I agree with you firedrake: a huge difficulty I am expecting is to find the right voice for characters who are spread across time, and who come from C18 Ireland, and several counties in England. Quite a challenge. Even though this wasn't what you meant by "voice" I know even now that there is no way I am going to complicate my writing by going into dialects and such things; perhaps a bit of slang and local terminology, etc, but that's all.

Still a lot of planning, writing bios and describing many locations, so I'm guessing it will be some time before I get back to SYW.

Another question, please: I can't run only 1 POV character from start to finish. Many of the family characters I use in the novel, not surprisingly never met each other.

Again, many thanks for your advice.

Puma said:

Hi Sentosa - I'm going to suggest you spend some time in SYW Historical reading how some of the other writers here are handling their situations and characters. And if you do read some of the posts, feel free to leave some comments or questions. The group there is pretty congenial.

I think I understand what you're asking in your last question (which didn't come across quite as a question) - but, how to handle stories that intertwine but don't join, stories that are years apart, etc. Stories written from too many POVs can be hard to handle for both the writers and the readers - I have two novels (unpublished as yet), one with three POVs that finally join together and one with four who never join but are tied together by a fifth character. The hazard is in jumpiness in going from one POV to another (and in both my cases, the story flips back and forth). If you're dealing with POVs that are separated by time and can make sub-books in your novel, you should be okay.

Hope this helps. Puma

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At this stage of my planning, everything helps.

I'm currently wondering, because the story revolves around many individuals, whether (i) I should assign separate discrete PARTS to each; and (ii) rather than writing it as a novel, should I consider it as a series of memoirs?

That raises another question: do lower class people have memoirs, or are they traditionally more the province of the upper classes?

Spending time in SYW Historical is on my list of things to do, but first I feel I need to decide what major characters and sidekicks I want to appear in my novel. That, I hope, will give me a better idea of locations/settings, tone and tenor, and voices.

cooeedownunder said:

If you cover the Irish Rebellion in Ireland than cover the early years of an Irish ancestor in Australia, an excellent read is The Battle of Vinegar Hill: Australia's Irish Rebellion, 1804. It touches on the Ireland rebellion, which inturn would eventually lead to the Australian Irish Rebellion. It has some great insights into how those Irish transported here felt about their home and the circumstances they came to find themselves in Australia. Ship load after shipload arrived without indenture papers, because of the political mess in Ireland, and inturn had no recourse to ever return home. It tells tales of how the Irish believed because the southerly winds were colder that they believed Ireland was south to Australia and many would die trying to cross the Blue Mountains as they believed China lay on the other side, and if not China, then surely there had to be a place like Ireland on the otherside. It's well worth the read to get an insight into not only the political bacground of Irish politics in the colonial perion, but how they precieved this land and how out of all those transported, the Irish could not give up the love of their land or belief they could gain freedom here and return home.

http://www.gould.com.au/Battle-of-Vinegar-Hill-Aust-Irish-Rebellion-p/wmk002.htm

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I'll Very relevant background reading, because I had two ancestors at Vinegar Hill: one a soldier, and the other a convict.

Thanks for the link.

firedrake said:

Hi Sentosa,

Multiple POVs shouldn't be a problem. I'd suggest you read a few multi-generational sagas to get an idea of how they're handled. i can remember reading one or two, but my memory is like a sieve. If they spring to mind I'll PM you or post here.

There's some good books around on 18th century Ireland. The problems were well documented on both sides. The problem is going to be sifting through the bias.

When I say 'voice' it's not so much about the dialect as much it's about capturing the personality of your characters in their 'time', it's more about terminology and the kind of things they'd say.

It sounds like you have a wealth of history to draw on. Good luck!!!

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I do understand what you meant by "voice". My comment about dialect was more a reminder to me to stay well clear of trying to write effectively in dialects.

Unfortunately, I believe that having too much history to draw on will initially be a significant problem for me: what to include, what to leave out; and these's always the issue of the dreaded info dump.

cooeedownunder said:

My first chapter of my last WIP, which is on SYW, has a flogging that happened to the lead up to the Irish Rebellion here.

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I hope we're not likely to overlap too much in our stories. Unlikely, but possible.

Will read your post in SYW.

Managed to find "The Battle of Vinegar Hill" on eBay (currently out of print) and have ordered it. Thanks for the heads up.

cooeedownunder said:

My story isn't about the rebellion, well not that story, and besides we all tell stories differently. Your intentions sound much more ambitious.

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I always start with ambitious intentions. Reality tends to strike somewhere between chapters 3 and 4.

You're right about each writing a different story. Back in history when I was teaching, I gave a senior class of about 15, the same characters and the same locations, and asked them to write a short story. Every story was different -- significantly so.

Puma said:

From your comment in response to me, it sounds like you like to lay everything out before you start. I'm a bit of the same way - but I have learned that prose has a way of developing a life of its own and have come to accept extra characters who pop in and circumstances as inevitable.

My suggestion is to make a rough outline of the major characters and events you want to cover - and then sort of let things happen as they will. Example - in the historical "faction" I wrote there were times when there was too much dead space between events. In places like that I went to pure fiction and added color in the form of things that would have been happening like planting fields, church services, meals, etc. In other words, allow yourself some liberty to be creative. Puma

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There are many good points here.
I don't outline in detail, but start with an idea of where I want to finish. If I'm really lucky (I mean this seriously) not too long after I get started, my characters will tell me where they want to go--and that's fantastic. I don't always follow their wishes, but I do consider them.

Something I dislike initially when it happens, when a minor character keeps pushing itself forward to become more important--a bit like a child saying "me, me" when he/she wants to be picked in a team. I've learned over the years to deal with this. If I can't put them out of my mind, I'll give them a chance in a scene to do what they reckon they can. If that works OK, I'll probably give them a chapter. That's the acid test.

Some of you will think I'm strange to be communicating with my characters this way. I've been doing it for years, and I like the camaraderie that sometimes develops. Anyway, I accept that I might be weird.

You mention "adding colour". I keep a list of local and world historical events for the time period, and somes can slip them in. Similar thing, I think.

Puma said:

Sounds like you know what you're doing and have a good approach, Sentosa. I wish you well. If you have questions, want to put a snippet up for comments, or whatever, someone will be around here and/or historical SYW to try to help. Now get working on it! Puma

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Still some planning, I'm afraid. I've ordered Vinegar Hill, and hope it will arrive before Xmas. I've identified about a dozen books available from several libraries than will give me more background -- don't always use the background, but it makes me feel I know what I'm doing, and it's always there if I need it.

My first job is to decide which ancestors I want to use, who will start as MC and POV, do bios for them and several minor characters. Then there's the basic outline, so yes, there's plenty for me to do.

You know, this is the first time in many years I've actually started a new project instead of revising/editing existing WIPs. I'd forgotten how exciting it is.

No doubt I'll be back here many times. You'll soon be say: Oh gawd, not him again!