need help re: submission & querying procedures

juniper · Mar 13, 2010

I'm sure this has been covered here before, but I've been searching and haven't found the info I need. I've read the FAQs and looked through many threads. Sorry if this is a repeat question.

I just don't understand the procedures of a)submitting manuscripts and b)querying agents for representation.

A1. If I have a short story I want to submit for publication, is it ok to send it out to more than one place at a time? From reading threads here and gathering info other places, it seems that this would fall under the sin of multiple submissions and is frowned upon and could even get me blacklisted. But the alternative seems to be: send a short story to a magazine, wait a few months for the reply, if it's "no thanks" then package it up again and send it somewhere else, wait a few months for that reply, and keep this routine going until it either finds a home or I abandon it to the garage. This way it could take years for a story to make the rounds to various places! No wonder so many writers are broke.

A2. And what about sending out novels to publishers (slush piles)? Only send it to one slush pile at a time? Wait several months and then if it's "no thanks" send it to another one?

A3. Does entering a short story competition count as a submission? Do I have to wait until after the winners are announced before I can send it somewhere else (assuming I don't win)?

B. Does querying agents work the same way? No multiple querying? Or is querying several agents at the same time ok?

I have a short story that's just about ready to send out. I've taken it to a couple of writer's groups and made some changes and I just need to take the leap and send it out. I want to enter the Lorian Hemingway Short Story. I need to do this to prove to myself that I have the courage to submit. If I send it there, then is that the end of the road for this story until they announce the winners the end of July? So the story has to just sit in the drawer until then?

Am I allowed to turn it into a script and videotape it for airing on our local community media cable tv channels? Or does that violate the principle of multiple submissions?

I don't know why my head just doesn't absorb the business side of this. I need to pick up a book on the logistics aspect of writing. A reference guide of some kind. Any suggestions?

There's some great specific info here about preparing a manuscript (font, margins, SASE, mailing instructions, etc) but I'm still confused about the multiple submissions part. :Shrug:

Thanks ... and sorry if this has been covered before.

shadowwalker · Mar 13, 2010

I did a quick google and got these:

http://www.writing-world.com/basics/simsubs.shtml = discourages it for a variety of reasons

http://ezinearticles.com/?Are-Simultaneous-Submissions-a-Good-Idea?&id=455928 = from a publisher and author (same person) - gives opinion from both sides of the fence

http://www.aboutfreelancewriting.com/articles/marketing/simultaneoussubs.htm = says go for it!

I guess, for me, if the company doesn't say anything about them, I'd make the inquiry first. If they say (or state upfront) that they don't, and I really want to go for that publisher/magazine, then that's where (and only where) I'd submit. But if I'd rather increase my chances of getting published, period, I'd go for the ones that do accept simultaneous submissions, but - as one of the above authors mentions - make sure I let the publisher/magazine know that's what I'm doing.

Contests are more flexible - most I've seen accept SS and only want to be notified in a timely manner (like, immediately) if the story is accepted elsewhere.

BenPanced · Mar 13, 2010

There three different scenarios here, so I'm going to take them one at a time.

Juniekat said:
A1. If I have a short story I want to submit for publication, is it ok to send it out to more than one place at a time? From reading threads here and gathering info other places, it seems that this would fall under the sin of multiple submissions and is frowned upon and could even get me blacklisted. But the alternative seems to be: send a short story to a magazine, wait a few months for the reply, if it's "no thanks" then package it up again and send it somewhere else, wait a few months for that reply, and keep this routine going until it either finds a home or I abandon it to the garage. This way it could take years for a story to make the rounds to various places! No wonder so many writers are broke.

It's not a good idea you send a short to, say, three different markets at the same time because all three might accept it at the same time and you'll have to turn two of them down. Publication time, from acceptance to appearance is much, much more narrow than a novel (3 months as opposed to 3 years), they're blocking out specific amounts of space to fill in an issue. If they choose yours because it fits the content of the publication and the amount of space but you turn it down because you got a better offer, you've just blown their entire schedule and they'll need to go back to find something to fill that gap. It won't make you look good with the two you've refused and they will remember your name the next time you try to submit to them. Markets for shorts generally take the amount of time specified in their guidelines so you won't be waiting for too long to take a response.

And if takes "years for a story to make the rounds"? You've cast too wide a net. Narrow the focus because not everybody takes everything into consideration.

A2. And what about sending out novels to publishers (slush piles)? Only send it to one slush pile at a time? Wait several months and then if it's "no thanks" send it to another one?

Because of the wait time and the nature of the market, you can get away with sending to more than one and not worry about having to turn down more than one offer; you'll be lucky to have one accept.

A3. Does entering a short story competition count as a submission? Do I have to wait until after the winners are announced before I can send it somewhere else (assuming I don't win)?

Check the rules. Amazon's Breakthrough Novel Award's rules state you cannot submit your novel to anybody while it's under their consideration. If it doesn't make it through any of the two preliminary rounds of judging, it's released and you're able to submit it to other markets. If the contest does have this sort of "exclusive", then yes, you need to wait until you've found out you've won or not before you submit elsewhere.

B. Does querying agents work the same way? No multiple querying? Or is querying several agents at the same time ok?

Check their guidelines. A few agents out there want "exclusives", meaning you've submitted the work to them alone, but querying to multiple agents is generally okay. And you'll want to check on the policy of simultaneous submissions, meaning you're submitting to more than one agent at the same house, as well. Bad form if you've got two agents at the same place extending an offer that neither knows about or if you submit to a place that circulates queries round robin style to everybody in the agency.

I have a short story that's just about ready to send out. I've taken it to a couple of writer's groups and made some changes and I just need to take the leap and send it out. I want to enter the Lorian Hemingway Short Story. I need to do this to prove to myself that I have the courage to submit. If I send it there, then is that the end of the road for this story until they announce the winners the end of July? So the story has to just sit in the drawer until then?

I'm not sure on this one. You'll need to check the rules of the contest but I would say you'll need to wait for a response if you submit to the contest. Again, potential for awkward situations.

Am I allowed to turn it into a script and videotape it for airing on our local community media cable tv channels? Or does that violate the principle of multiple submissions?

No, it has nothing to do with multiple submissions but I have no idea how this would effect possible publication.

I don't know why my head just doesn't absorb the business side of this. I need to pick up a book on the logistics aspect of writing. A reference guide of some kind. Any suggestions?

There's some great specific info here about preparing a manuscript (font, margins, SASE, mailing instructions, etc) but I'm still confused about the multiple submissions part.

Thanks ... and sorry if this has been covered before.

A good suggestion would be to pick up the Writer's Digest markets at the library and give them a thorough read. They have more information than I can cover in a simple forum post and all the guidelines you'll need.

EFCollins · Mar 14, 2010

BenPanced makes good points. I would just add that if you can't find a clickable link on any magazine/publisher/agent web site, sometimes there is a search function. Typing in submission guidelines will bring up what you need. I found a few submission guidelines that way.

And while writer's market and duotrope and ralan.com are great resources, nothing beats reading the guidelines and following them. To. The. Letter. You have no idea how many rejections are sent because people simply do not follow submissions guidelines.

dgiharris · Mar 14, 2010

I'm primarily a short story writer.

My advice is that you write PLENTY of short stories and maintain a database/excel sheet of your stories and where you submitted them to.

This is what you do. RESEARCH where you want your stories published, make a top twenty wish list. Once that is done, submit to #1. If rejected or 2 months expire, cross off #1 and proceed to submit to #2, and so on and so forth.

In the mean time, you should be writing ANOTHER story.

Eventually, you get to the point where you have so many stories out there in the submission space that you don't mind waiting a month or so to resubmit.

In all honesty, I more or less stagger my submissions by one month for my top three choices. After my top three have rejected me, I then submit 3 stories at a time and have yet to run into a problem of 3 acceptances at once. If you do the math, publishers accept less than 2% of submissions so IMO don't worry about it.

However, I know a few publishers where I have a REALLY good chance of being published and I don't screw around with those.

You will find that most publishers get back to you within a month and there are a LOT of publishers out there that accept simultaneous submissions so I find it hasn't been too much of a problem

And lastly, the most important thing is reading the guidelines of that particular publisher. You will get instantly rejected if you don't follow thier specific guidelines.

Mel...

eqb · Mar 14, 2010

Do NOT do simultaneous submissions unless ALL the markets involved EXPLICITLY say it's allowed. It's stupid and pointless to antagonize editors by screwing up their work. This goes for short story and novel markets.

Querying agents is entirely different. There they expect you to query lots of places at once. If they want an exclusive, which is rare for queries, they'll say so in their guidelines.

Note: the game with novels is different if you're agented. Agents usually submit your work to several publishers at a time.

Gillhoughly · Mar 15, 2010

But the alternative seems to be: send a short story to a magazine, wait a few months for the reply, if it's "no thanks" then package it up again and send it somewhere else, wait a few months for that reply, and keep this routine going until it either finds a home or I abandon it to the garage. This way it could take years for a story to make the rounds to various places! No wonder so many writers are broke.

Welcome to the exciting world of publishing.

One of the senior editors at Ace Science Fiction recommended to me (and other new writers at the time):

Write a story a week for one year.

In 12 months you'll have more than 50 stories circulating, and should one come back, instead of feeling like a smashed worm, you shrug it off because you still have 49 others making the rounds.

Sooner or later, you start selling. By writing a story a week, you can't help but get better at the craft.

Writing is like learning the piano; the more you practice, the better you play.

It's not about writing/selling one book or one story. It's about writing/selling dozens of them.

You keep a record of what you sent where and when you sent it out. You can send different stories to the same venue, so long as they are different.

A2. And what about sending out novels to publishers (slush piles)? Only send it to one slush pile at a time? Wait several months and then if it's "no thanks" send it to another one?

That's how it worked for me. I had two years of it. Each time the sample chapters and synopsis came back with a rejection I ripped into them to figure out why they didn't sell.

When I did connect with a publisher, I found out the slush reader had been so into my stuff that she missed her subway stop home.

Your book opening needs to be such that it will do that: distracting a tired, overworked, underpaid, eyesore, brain-dead editor who's been slogging through slush all day into missing her stop home.

Don't assume your editor will be reading your words in a plush, soundproofed office, giving them her undivided attention.

Assume it will be under the most unpleasant circumstances possible.

Why? Because when a person buys a book, they want distraction from whatever is going on around them. Your book needs to be able to take them out of that and into its reality.

Editors know this and look for writers who can do that to readers. You want readers staying up all night to read your words and cursing your name the next morning for their lost sleep.

It took me 2 years and 25 rewrites of chapter one, and three full rewrites of the whole book before I got a serious nibble and then sold it. I was on the fast track, too. To keep my head from exploding I wrote two more books, because I knew that if they bought the first one, they'd want to buy the others, too.

Which they did.

A3. Does entering a short story competition count as a submission?

Not that I'm aware of, but I'd rather expend effort sending the story to a paying market over a contest. Many contests have entry fees (avoid those) and you may not get the back the money invested.

B. Does querying agents work the same way? No multiple querying? Or is querying several agents at the same time ok?

See what BenPanced wrote on that.

I have a short story that's just about ready to send out. I need to do this to prove to myself that I have the courage to submit.

That's well and good, but what I said above still applies. Submit this story to this contest if you like, July is NOT that far off.

But write a NEW story to send someplace else. Then write another. And another. If you do a new story every two weeks you could have eight stories circulating by the time the winners are announced and thus you avoid the "end of the road" worry.

Am I allowed to turn it into a script and videotape it for airing on our local community media cable tv channels? Or does that violate the principle of multiple submissions?

You can do whatever you want with it, but will a script or video tape result in money? Anyone with a vid camera and a YouTube account can film whatever they like. The trick is to turn a profit from it.

If you think it will help sell it to an editor ("My story was made into a film that aired locally"), it won't. Only if a real production company hands you a check for your words will it count for anything.

I don't know why my head just doesn't absorb the business side of this. I need to pick up a book on the logistics aspect of writing. A reference guide of some kind. Any suggestions?

You've gotten plenty of good links already, and you can get your head around it with enough reading because the books will all have variations of the same information. This ain't rocket science. I was able to figure it out after a bit.

If you intend to be a professional writer you HAVE to know how the business end works. You're attempting to run a small business, after all!

Go to the library and start chewing through the 808 section for books on the business of writing. If they don't have titles you think you need, you can borrow them through Inter-Library Loan. I find it easier to absorb tough stuff from a book rather than reading from a screen.

Try these:

Mastering the Business of Writing - Richard Curtis (This one helped me back in the day.)

Writing a Novel and Getting it Published for Dummies

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Writing a Novel

Getting Your Book Published for Dummies

How to Write a Romance and Get It Published by Kathryn Falk -- I mention this one because it had a ton of practical information that applies to ALL book writing. It talks about contracts, what happens to a book after acceptance, marketing, promotion, etc. It is written in plain language by writers who having been through the process.

Ten Percent of Nothing: The Case of the Literary Agent from Hell by Jim Fisher (There are a lot of bad guys posing as lit. agents.)

To find an publisher--go to a bookstore, find books like yours, note the publisher's name, look them up online for their guidelines. Follow the guidelines. Don't bother looking on line; the Net is full of friendly scammers.

To find an agent--ask a writer with similar work if he or she could recommend one. Most writers have website contact addies and are happy to help a newbie so long as you don't tell them about your book.

And stay away from any agent/publisher that wants money first. Stay away from PublishAmerica.

Always Google the name of any publisher/person + "scam" or "ripoff." If they've been naughty, someone WILL complain about it. Heed those warnings. No one's book is so special that it will overcome a bad deal.

Good luck.

shaldna · Mar 16, 2010

I would check out the stickies at the top of this page, they tell you everything. katiemac posted an index to all these sort of topics which is really useful

juniper · Mar 23, 2010

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. I'm going to look through all the FAQs some more and keep hanging around here. So much information, so helpful.

abctriplets · Jul 3, 2010

Adding another question under this general topic. Now that I'm about to query, I've forgotten if I ever saw the answer to this:

If you are then pasting pages (like the first 10 pages, requested by the submission guidelines) below your signature, what do you do with your character's thoughts, that had once been underlined or italicized - since anything in the email will just be plain text?

Nuklear1 · Jul 3, 2010

BenPanced said:
A good suggestion would be to pick up the Writer's Digest markets at the library and give them a thorough read. They have more information than I can cover in a simple forum post and all the guidelines you'll need.

Even when using Writer's Market, be sure to thoroughly research and find out about an agent or publisher before querying them. I bought a copy of the 2010 Writer's Market from Writer's Digest. It was from this source that I stumbled upon Black Rose Writing. It was here at Absolute Write that I found out that BRW is nothing more than a vanity press and that was not the direction I wanted to go. So just because it is listed in a popular market book does not always make it golden. I am sure that someone on this site can help you if you have any questions about particular agents or houses that you may want to query.

__Was not trying to undermine you, BenPanced

Nuklear1 · Jul 3, 2010

I like you Gillhoughly. You are a good form of grumpy.

alanna · Jul 4, 2010

Everyone's been giving great advice. I would add (if I missed it above, sorry), that when you submit simulatenously, you want to note that in your query/cover letter. It's common courtesy, and editors will appreciate the heads-up. Something as simple as, "Just so you are aware, I am submitting this piece to multiple markets." is fine. But whoever you're submitting to needs to know that your work is under consideration elsewhere. And if it gets accepted, make sure to notify everyone else you've subbmitted to that the work is no longer available. If there''s a chance you'll submit it elsewhere, even if you haven't yet, act like it's a simultaneous submission, that way you don't hae to backtrack.

James D. Macdonald · Jul 4, 2010

abctriplets said:
Adding another question under this general topic. Now that I'm about to query, I've forgotten if I ever saw the answer to this:

If you are then pasting pages (like the first 10 pages, requested by the submission guidelines) below your signature, what do you do with your character's thoughts, that had once been underlined or italicized - since anything in the email will just be plain text?

Just put leading and trailing underscores in the text, like _this_.

night-flyer · Aug 14, 2010

Opinions please,

I recently read, on a well-known author's site, not to use Times New Roman, or Courier New font on your submission. Cathy C said that Courier New is standard use. I'm confused, is it acceptable or not? My program doesn't have Courier, only Courier New (which is evidently not the same thing). Will this be fine to use? Do not want to take any chances that my ms won't be looked at just over what font I used. :Shrug:

Fallen · Aug 15, 2010

Most of the publishers/agents I've come across favour Times New Roman or Courier New, NF. (And Cathy C knows her stuff and won't steer you wrong

)

If you chosen to write before looking at a particular publisher/agent, just pick a publisher/agent that you think your work will be best suited for, go to their webpage, click under submission guidelines, and you'll get a rough idea of how that particular publisher/agent likes work set out (most will give 'submission guidelines').

For now, if it's a first draft you're working with, choose your Courier New. Write, edit, edit some more, then go choose publisher/agent; check the guidelines, and alter it accordingly. It's a simple change to make.

But it's good practice just to start having a feel for what publishers/agents like. At least then, there's no surprises when it does come to submiting.

night-flyer · Aug 15, 2010

Fallen said:
Most of the publishers I've come across favour Times New Roman or Courier New, NF. (And Cathy C knows her stuff and won't steer you wrong )

Thanx, Fallen. I did it in Times New Roman, but thought I should change it to Courier New. A lot of places guidelines I've seen don't specify. I will take yours and Cathys advice. Thank-you

Gabrielle · Aug 17, 2010

Following up on fonts... If a publisher doesn't list a specific font of preference in the guidelines, it means two things: one, that it doesn't matter to them so much. Two, that they still expect you to use common sense and pick something very plain, simple and readable.

With Times New Roman and Courier New (not Courier, which comes across extra-pixelated and is hard to stare at for hours) being the usual fonts of choice, even if there's no font preference listed I'd still stick with one of those two.

Personally, even though I'm an editor, I despise Courier New, but I know I'm in the minority. I won't penalize a manuscript I receive in CN -- it's a standard, and I'm not so eccentric as to insist folks bend standards and traditions just for me! I also know that if I accept it, I'm going to move it to TNR before I start to work on it.

(The next question becomes, if all editors can just tweak it however they want, why does it matter what font you send it in? The answer is because it becomes a time issue to have to go in and tweak every single file. In theory, the guidelines exist so that all the formatting is done ahead of time.)

As for italics and other special formatting in plain text emails, I've accepted both the _underscore_ for underline and the /slash/ for italics. But only in plain text. Once you're in a .doc or an .rtf, I expect actual formatting and not placeholder formatting.

need help re: submission & querying procedures

juniper

Always curious.

shadowwalker

empty-nester!

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

EFCollins

World Class Rambler

dgiharris

Disgruntled Scientist

eqb

I write novels

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

juniper

Always curious.

abctriplets

Nuklear1

I Speak Dragon Naturally

Nuklear1

I Speak Dragon Naturally

alanna

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

night-flyer

roasting cows

Fallen

Stood at the coalface

night-flyer

roasting cows

Gabrielle

writer, editor, publisher, lurker