Capturing dialect?

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Chris P

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Well......

As the three climbed out of the car, they were met by a large, round black man who grinned and introduced himself as Ike, but then quickly added that his real name was Eki. Eki Saunders, of the Saunders family up in Meridian.
They stepped up onto the long porch, Ike asking if they'd like a Coke, apologizing that he didn't sell anything stronger. "I can, 'cause Jackson County's wet. Been wet for a long spell. But muh wife didn't want me sellin' no beer. She's gone, now, been gone about five year. But I figgered I was gettin' too old to go get a permit. Didn't have money for no coolers, anyways. Don't mind if folks brings a six-pack or two with 'em, though, when we goes out."
The guys thought better of inquiring whether Ike's wife was deceased or had simply walked away. Instead, Marques kept up the idle conversation, saying he'd heard that nearly half the counties in Mississippi were dry. It was among the many things their squadron sergeant had warned them about when they’d arrived two months before: You could get in trouble just taking booze through a dry county, if you got caught. "Yeah," said Ike, "an' y'all gots to be careful, bein' black an' all. Easy to getcha seff pulled over."
"DWB," Marques said with a snort. "Driving While Black."
"Wal," said Ike, "if ya do wants a beer, ya gots ta go back ta the highway an' go up ta the tote-um store."
The three looked at Ike, baffled, and he let out a hoot of laughter, the dark skin of his round face scrunching up around his eyes.
"You ain't never heard of a tote-um store? That's what some folks around these parts calls a convenience store. Ya know, ya buys things an' ya tote 'em home."
As the laughter died down, Antwan asked about Ike's real name.
"Wal, I's born in '42. My great-granmama, on my mama's side, was from Niger (he pronounced it with a hard "J"). Come over as a chile jess after the war…."
"The War? World War…? You don't mean the Civil War?" Marques asked with unfeigned shock.

What was wrong with it is that it took me about twice as long to read it because I had to sound out the words in my mind to understand what was being said. I've lived in Mississippi almost 10 years and yes, you're not far off from how people talk, especially country folk on the coast. However, I am not listening to what your character said, I am reading it. IMO, your word order and word choice are fine, but the spelling is what slows me down and gets tedious.

Have you read Joel Chandler Harris' Uncle Remus stories? That is dialect to the extreme and I can only read it if I read it out loud.
 

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Cross-posted :)

Well......
It just seems silly to have a gang-banger say to a cop something like:

"My friends and I were cruising through the neighborhood when we heard shots fired. They sounded like they came from a nine-millimeter handgun, officer."

To me, this kind of speech would be truly annoying, because I'd have a very difficult time taking the book seriously at that point.


Even something like: "Man, we were just driving through, and we heard these shots. Sounded like a nine..." seems woefully inaccurate.

I'm just going to jump in with both feet. Please tell me what's annoying (or flat-out wrong) about the following: (It's a flashback to 1995, when MC Antwan Ware and two fellow military trainees head into the back country of Mississippi and stop at the only black-owned fishing camp along the Pascagoula River.)

As the three climbed out of the car, they were met by a large, round black man who grinned and introduced himself as Ike, but then quickly added that his real name was Eki. Eki Saunders, of the Saunders family up in Meridian.
They stepped up onto the long porch, Ike asking if they'd like a Coke, apologizing that he didn't sell anything stronger. "I can, 'cause Jackson County's wet. Been wet for a long spell. But muh wife didn't want me sellin' no beer. She's gone, now, been gone about five year. But I figgered I was gettin' too old to go get a permit. Didn't have money for no coolers, anyways. Don't mind if folks brings a six-pack or two with 'em, though, when we goes out."
The guys thought better of inquiring whether Ike's wife was deceased or had simply walked away. Instead, Marques kept up the idle conversation, saying he'd heard that nearly half the counties in Mississippi were dry. It was among the many things their squadron sergeant had warned them about when they’d arrived two months before: You could get in trouble just taking booze through a dry county, if you got caught. "Yeah," said Ike, "an' y'all gots to be careful, bein' black an' all. Easy to getcha seff pulled over."
"DWB," Marques said with a snort. "Driving While Black."
"Wal," said Ike, "if ya do wants a beer, ya gots ta go back ta the highway an' go up ta the tote-um store."
The three looked at Ike, baffled, and he let out a hoot of laughter, the dark skin of his round face scrunching up around his eyes.
"You ain't never heard of a tote-um store? That's what some folks around these parts calls a convenience store. Ya know, ya buys things an' ya tote 'em home."
As the laughter died down, Antwan asked about Ike's real name.
"Wal, I's born in '42. My great-granmama, on my mama's side, was from Niger (he pronounced it with a hard "J"). Come over as a chile jess after the war…."
"The War? World War…? You don't mean the Civil War?" Marques asked with unfeigned shock.

For the record: Ike's contribution to the story lasts about one page. Nobody else talks like this. Later, we meet Antwan's half-brother who does speak an inner-city dialect, but again, only briefly.

Your thoughts?

I can totally process that fine and fast. But I'm very familiar with the dialect, so I don't count :) Awesome job at it, though!
 

DrZoidberg

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Zadie Smith does it masterfully in her book White Teeth. I recommend reading that for a lesson in how it's done.

I think it gets a bit lost if you don't also show it by context, ie it being set in an environment where the dialect comes alive, and is coupled with local values. It also has to be a very stereotypical dialect, or it'll simply get lost on a reader who doesn't have experience with that particular dialect. The more stereotypical the easier it'll be to suck the reader in. But then you have the problem of risking using stale stereotypes. Dialects always run a risk of coming across as very insulting to the wrong person.

I've so far avoided dialects all together. I've found them to take the focus away from what is being said. It's probably a weakness in my writing skill, but there you have it. I've just not been able to make it work. I think the most important rule for all dialogue is that real people don't speak in whole sentences. Dialect is secondary.
 

Lady Ice

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I'm writing something set in Cornwall and it's the first time I've had to encounter this problem :) Not everybody who lives in a place will speak the slang- if it's set in a small town, most people will have probably grown up there, but for somewhere like London, it's so big that you'll have a range of accents and voices.
 

KathleenD

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I always recommend Agatha Christie. Poirot throws around French phrases, but for the most part, she doesn't use accents or dialect to show that one character is Italian, this one is German, that one is French.

Instead of changing the spelling, she most often uses the grammar and other speech patterns of the language/dialect. (She uses the technique best to distinguish class and region in Great Britain.) I can always tell where a character is from even if she doesn't tell me.
 
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The Lonely One

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I've seen it done both ways in published works. As most things, it seems to be at the discretion of the writer to decide whether what you're writing will be a hindrance, an insult to the reader, or if the cost of the reader slowing down is outweighed by the benefit of characterization that comes as a result.

The overall consensus seems to be to avoid purposeful misspells or phonetic language in most instances, and certainly not in heavy doses. That doesn't mean other authors haven't gotten away with it, but it's probably important to note what they did that made it work v. the many other examples that may have failed in their place.

I think the reason it's frowned upon is because of the tremendous risk the writer undertakes--as I said, the reader slows WAY down, must analyze the text and perhaps reread a passage a few times to properly get the inflections and realize what you're doing, if you do it wrong it'll be insulting and destroy your credibility as an author, and various other potential missteps.

In any case, if you're gonna do it I would read up on some of this kind of technique and make sure you've got it straight.
 

Mr Flibble

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I always recommend Agatha Christie. Poirot throws around French phrases, but for the most part, she doesn't use accents or dialect to show that one character is Italian, this one is German, that one is French. She uses it best to distinguish class and region in Great Britain.

Instead of changing the spelling, she most often uses the grammar and other speech patterns of the language/dialect. I can always tell where a character is from even if she doesn't tell me.


Agatha Christie's a good example. I try and do the same myself


There is the world of difference between 'I was very upset, and I cried.' and 'I were that upset, I sobbed buckets'

Okay, not a world. But in say the 20s, the distance from Knightsbridge to deepest Sussex :D
 

PeterL

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It is possible to show a great deal about a character through language, because speech reflects the way that someone thinks. To make it work, one needs to have a really good understanding of language and of the characters involved. Regional dialects have been dying out in the U.S. for along time. Most people speak TV General American with a few bits of regional dialect attached, so there isn't much there unless the setting is in the past. You can show a lot about intelligence and/or education without much trouble. The matter of mixing up "came" and "come" is a fine way to show that someone isn't well educated, and there are many other possibilities.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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I liked these.
Me too. :) I could hear the characters so clearly and they sounded so different. It was really well done.

I love phonetic dialogue when it's done well.

The most common way to colloquialize dialect is to drop the G from words ending with G. Problem is, even people who don't regulary pronounce the G on the end of their words will still do it when they inflect a certain way.
Yeah, I have an MC who speaks with an accent that sometimes results in dropped gs. Sometimes. It depends on the word, how fast he's speaking, and how he's emphasizing the 'g' word and the words around it. I hear him speaking in my head, so it's pretty simple for me to write what I hear.


I go to a lot of trouble to get all the dialogue sounding just perfect in my books. I absolutely hate it when all the characters sound exactly the same. Even if they're all from the same place they will have different ways of expressing themselves, different 'favorite phrases', and some will be more articulate than others. Dialogue can make up 20% or more of the word count in a novel. It's not something to be taken lightly or ignored because you think getting it right is too much work.

I love how my tri-lingual MC's accent changes or disappears entirely depending on which language he's speaking. I also love how the incredibly distinct speech patterns in that series (which I'm able to do because the characters are from different countries) save me huge amounts of dialogue tags.

I especially love the fact that since I write fantasy I don't have to worry about getting it 'wrong' or offending anyone. :D

I'm trying to think of more examples of published books that use phonetic or otherwise distinct dialogue well, but most of them seem to have already been posted. *keeps thinking*
 

Bufty

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Well done only to someone with local knowledge. Other than that, it would be a drudge to get through very much of it.

This post suggests you like using phonetic spelling in dialogue.

If you do, it is both lazy and asking for trouble.

Concentrating on word choice and sentence construction, plus other characters' reactions to a particular character's method of speaking are far superior methods and far easier to read.

Almost every book you pick up shows how to distinguish between characters in dialogue.

Me too. :) I could hear the characters so clearly and they sounded so different. It was really well done.

I love phonetic dialogue when it's done well.


Yeah, I have an MC who speaks with an accent that sometimes results in dropped gs. Sometimes. It depends on the word, how fast he's speaking, and how he's emphasizing the 'g' word and the words around it. I hear him speaking in my head, so it's pretty simple for me to write what I hear.


I go to a lot of trouble to get all the dialogue sounding just perfect in my books. I absolutely hate it when all the characters sound exactly the same. Even if they're all from the same place they will have different ways of expressing themselves, different 'favorite phrases', and some will be more articulate than others. Dialogue can make up 20% or more of the word count in a novel. It's not something to be taken lightly or ignored because you think getting it right is too much work.

I love how my tri-lingual MC's accent changes or disappears entirely depending on which language he's speaking. I also love how the incredibly distinct speech patterns in that series (which I'm able to do because the characters are from different countries) save me huge amounts of dialogue tags.

I especially love the fact that since I write fantasy I don't have to worry about getting it 'wrong' or offending anyone. :D

I'm trying to think of more examples of published books that use phonetic or otherwise distinct dialogue well, but most of them seem to have already been posted. *keeps thinking*
 

Priene

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Bleedin' awful china! Real Sexton Blake! 'ard t'get yer norf 'n'souf round some dicky birds! See yer round the johnny 'orner at the rubadub for a pig's ear?

Who let Guy Ritchie in here?
 

Peter Graham

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Greetings one and all.

This subject has always been something of a bugbear of mine. As a general rule, I think it's quite a Good Thing to show an accent or dialect, rather than just telling the reader that there is one. I think the following would be terrible:-

"Hello, Peter. Do you fancy coming to the pub?" he said in his rich Yorkshire accent.

But by the same token, going into some sort of horrible pastiche of dialect or accent (the sort of thing that obliges Irish characters to say "top of the marning to you, sorr") is equally toe-curling. To whit:-

"'Ey up, Peter lad. Dost thou fancy comin' t' pub?"

I suppose it might be different if one could render an accent perfectly, but even so, it makes things very difficult for the reader who has no knowledge of that particular voice.

The other problem is consistency - how many of us can accurately render more than one accent or dialect? What do we do with characters who have different voices if we have set off down this path?

My view is (like others have suggested) that a hint of a voice - the use of the odd word in dialect or in accent - does the job best of all. Not quite as bland as having everyone speaking in a written equivalent of RP (which, lest we forget, is also an accent), but at the same time avoiding the sort of Dick Van Dyke-esque extremes of hideous pastiche.

Regards,

Peter
 

NeuroFizz

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Write words, not sounds. Some exceptions exist. Apostrophes are not the 27th letter of the alphabet.
 

barbilarry

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Nothing to add just sayin' Hello to^^^^^^^^!
 

ishtar'sgate

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What are your thoughts on dialect? Here in Indiana, an awful lot of people (including the educated), use what are called "Hoosierisms." The words "come" and "came" are often transposed ("He come in yesterday and said the part hasn't came in yet").
Others: "she's already went." "they was out playin' ball." "I throwed the ball real good."

Should you use this kind of language if your character is from a part of the country where folks routinely talk that way? What about inner city African Americans, especially young males? Working in downtown Indy, I knew a lot of young guys who really peppered their speech! What about using that vernacular, almost verbatim?
That's generally simply a lazy speech pattern and lots of people speak that way. If you need to emphasize the 'folksiness' of a certain character a bit of it wouldn't hurt. Just use it sparingly. Heavy use of any kind of unusual dialect or speech pattern bugs readers after awhile.
 

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I totally agree with those of you who have said to use it sparingly. There is no way in heck I'd have my MC talk that way through the entire book. In fact, I use the dialect to juxtapose the MC's education and use of proper grammar.

As for the criticism that you have to work at understanding what Ike is saying... BFD! Sure, reading shouldn't have to be a chore, but if you're reading a fantasy or historical novel (for example), you'll encounter language, settings, etc that require a little effort to understand.

As for "telling" the reader that a character speaks in a dialect... aren't we as writers supposed to "show" the reader, not "tell?" I have a character go skydiving. I guess I could write, "Debbie strapped on the parachute rig, rode the plane to 10,000 feet, jumped out and was thrilled. Later..."
No. I spend five pages describing the fear building during the "countdown," the feel of the cold air whipping through the airplane cabin, the exhilaration of the free fall (and even one or two occasions Debbie's sound as she shouts for the sheer joy of shouting) and the gentle descent under the canopy.

I just have this crazy urge to make it real.
 

BrooklynLee

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I'm not a big fan of using too much dialect or phonetic spelling in writing. It's distracting, can be insulting, and often ends up being just plain trite. I'm a transplant to Boston, and people try to write the Boston accent all the time. The whole "pahk the cah in Hahvahd Yahd" which you can't even do, anyway. I'm more intrigued when a character indicates their social class and background through *what* they say, rather than how they say it.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I have nothing against the occasional use of phonetic spelling, and certainly nothing againt dropping a 'g" now and then. Done well, and not too frequently, both are accurate reproduction of accent. It's doing it well that's tough, but such is the life of a writer. You have to find a way of doing it well.

For dialect, you use speech pattern and word choice.

I think the best way to get both right is to trust your eyes, not your ears. Read current novels by good writers. If you want to write an authentic, well-written Irish accent, then read good, current Irish writers.
 

EFCollins

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The thing about dialect is that it can be used, and very effectively, but it must, must, must be used as sparing as it possibly can be.

A writer can imply dialect in speech by nothing more than one word. I've done so myself and very effectively too. However, dialect must be consistent. Must be. This includes not only the words they use, but construction of the sentences they use, tones and inflections of certain words (which can be shown in the written word if you know how), stressing of certain syllables versus others etc. Yankees tend to forget their "R's" at the end, use of er for words that end in "A", and turn "E's" into "I's". Cah for car, Crik for creek, Melber for Melba. If I ran across the word crik in a novel, I'd think of a crick in the neck, not a creek in the woods (everyone makes mistakes and it's not uncommon for a missing letter to stay missing even after edits). However, if the character using the word has his or her dialect implied in Northern construction, or a simple usage of a word like ayuh for uh-huh, I'd read creek as crik because I'd know.You can "hear" it. It only takes a word or two every so often to imply the dialect in the rest of the manuscript's dialog.
 

kuwisdelu

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When a good writer really nails phonetic dialect, I love reading it, even if it slows me down.

When an average or poor writer does it, it's just painful and headache-inducing.

Your example was okay. Didn't slow me down. I'd be fine with it as long as it didn't come up every page.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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Well done only to someone with local knowledge. Other than that, it would be a drudge to get through very much of it.

This post suggests you like using phonetic spelling in dialogue.

If you do, it is both lazy and asking for trouble.

Concentrating on word choice and sentence construction, plus other characters' reactions to a particular character's method of speaking are far superior methods and far easier to read.

Almost every book you pick up shows how to distinguish between characters in dialogue.
I do like using a certain amount of phonetic spelling in dialogue. I would not write an accent as heavy as the one Maxinquaye posted for a major character in a novel because it would get too laborious to read, though I think an accent like that for a supporting character who doesn't have too many lines can be fun.

I very much resent you calling me lazy because I choose to use some phonetic dialogue in my books. I spend a tremendous amount of time getting the speech patterns of each character just right, as I believe I stated in my earlier post. I use word choice, sentence structure, choice expressions, and accent (when I feel it's appropriate) in order to do this.

I also very much disagree that 'almost every' published novel uses dialogue effectively. I'd say at least half the published books I read have characters who all sound exactly alike. This doesn't automatically make the book bad, but it's certainly lazy on the part of the writer.
 

DennisB

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Chasing,
Boy have you hit the nail on the head!
I've read several (otherwise) very good novels lately, and I noticed that the characters all talk basically the same, with virtually identical cadence and structure, and all with proper grammar/syntax). Even Michael Connelly (pretty much my favorite writer, overall) does this. But since he does it well, maybe it shows that dialogue should not be a central element in a novel, but rather a tool to convey a thought.

On the other hand, another favorite of mine, Elmore Leonard, does use local dialect/colloquialism and speech patterns to lend richness. In a confrontation with an inner-city Detroit thug, the bad guy is going to sound inner-city, complete with a lot of M-Fs. His characters use quite a few sentence fragments ("The f**k you doin' with that?")

But here's a short passage from his acclaimed SS Hurrah for Capt. Early (it's about a black solder, a veteran of the Charge up San Juan Hill, a man who is being harassed by bigoted cowboys):

Catlett... pointed down the street and said, "You see that young fella coming this way with the pistol? He think he like to shoot me. Say you don't allow people to sit here aren't staying at the ho-tel. How about, you allow them to get shot if they not a guest?"

Maybe I'm just anal. But I want it to be real.
 
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Chasing the Horizon

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But since he does it well, maybe it shows that dialogue should not be a central element in a novel, but rather a tool to convey a thought.
Of course dialogue is and should be a means of conveying thought, but used to its fullest potential it can also be a powerful tool for conveying character and even setting.

As brutal as modern publishing is, I don't think we unpubbed writers can afford to use any tool, including dialogue, to less than its full potential.
 

Monkey

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How to use grammar like a rapper...or is it a rap "dialect"? :D At any rate, this very funny video covers the way bad grammar is often used by performers to come across as "street" or "tough"...it's both sung and written across the screen--and at one point, on a chalkboard. The accent/dialect/lack of education comes across quite well in the written form, but is still understandable enough that I could handle a fair amount in a novel...still, even at that, too much would be too much.

(Miniskirts, otherwise work appropriate)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj6QqCH7g0Q
 

Lady Ice

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Read Lady Chatterley's Lover for dialect ;)
 
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