Thursday Discussion - Japanese Poetry Forms

Ethnic romanticism. Becoming disgruntled with ones own society, when it seems there is little to be proud of any more, any fence must have greener grass on the other side. Wapanese, Wiggers and Banana’s come to mind: respectively – WhiteJapanese/WesternJapenese, White Niggers, and Asians who dress, act and even undergo surgical alterations to appear more Western.

Perhaps western culture has tired somewhat with the Victorian era. I, myself, have a slight attraction to that era but would refuse to live in their society. Maybe that is why I have recently rekindled my interest in steampunk; the Victorian ethics with technologically advanced equipment.

I recall watching and being fascinated with Japan following the broadcast of the mini series Shogun in 1980. For several weeks after, Japan and shoguns, geisha and ninjas were all people talked about.

More recently there have been movies such as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, Hero (Jet Li) and a few others. These are box office hits with rave reviews. But ask a Chinese person if they were awe stuck as we were and you may find disinterest. For the nearest analogous movie would be a 2009 version of a John Wayne cowboy flick.

Who wants to be a cowboy these days? Are there enough people to warrant producing epic Victorian productions? Not many and maybe not are two probable answers. Big title movies of late from these era’s have had other aspects such as with Wild Wild West featuring steam powered robots. Likewise, The league Of Extraordinary Gentlemen had a twist with some steampunk and dieselpunk aspects and famous characters.

It seems, from a movie perspective, we’ve become tired with our own past. Even the 1930’s were beefed up with the release of Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow.

So, it appears to me, that after a 20 year rest, the romantic Japanese history is coming to the fore again. Its resurgence can also be attributed to Anime and other youth oriented Japanese influenced interests.

On the other hand, it may as simple as the internet allowing more people to connect with others who have a passion for Japanese poetry.

Personally, I do not believe a true haiku could be written in anything except Japanese – they have, after all, a complete subset of language to support it.

Colin Fiat.

I think Colin is right about this:

I do not believe a true haiku could be written in anything except Japanese – they have, after all, a complete subset of language to support it.

Click to expand...

Still, the Japanese forms are attractive to write; they have become "English-ized", and should be written.

The only one I've tried is the haiku, though perhaps some of my haiku tend more toward senryu. I looked into the tanka a little, but since it is just a haiku with two lines added for "verse capping" purposes (i.e. adding more information about the same images but no more images) I decided not to pursue it.

For publications, I don't think traditional Western forms have any advantage over the Japanese, nor do I see the Japanese having an advantage over the Western. For writing, the Japanese have a certain attaction. Haiku looks easy: three lines to a fixed syllable count, no rhyme, no meter, no metaphor, only images. Yet the shortness of the poem puts enourmous weight on each word, and the rules about two images and the connection/separation between the two, as the Japanese do, is really quite difficult and thus tends to be lost in English haiku.

I have not studied the other forms you mention, Casey. I'd be interested in knowing more about them.

NDG

While I cannot comment from a knowledgeable background, I can say that I love to read English translations of many forms of Japanese poetry. Our English language will not allow for strict use of their forms but we can use them as a base for small English poems.

Of course we would be better off not to call them "Tanka" as an example.

I want to mention the most abused form here - the one we see and write in English all the time because it looks - deceptively - easy.

The syllable count in haiku is all many of us look at when we jump into the chain,chain,chain,chain of haiku fools. That and trying get something funny going. The restriction on syllabic count in the three lines is hard enough for some folks to latch on to. But the the more suble restrictions are the ones we seldom talk about - the types of organic imagery, season influence and extreme simplicity of expression that the serious form demands.

I don't know of more forms of Japanese poetry than the ones mentioned here. That means there are probably more, I just don't know them.

I think we see the English/Romance Language poetic forms all the time and are more familiar with them, but the Japanese forms require so much discipline to get them even close to correct when you're working in English. On the other hand, when you get one that rings well, it can be a gem. I think the possibility of getting a good one is the slot machine pull that attracts writers and readers in English and makes this such a popular form.

That and the fact that it's ideal for writing about zombies and space opera.

Haiku and other Japanese Forms

Haiku in it's original form is made complex by many conventions, including the comparison of two images drawn from nature that lead to an insight of some kind (often related to Buddist or Taoist thought).

******

Here is a series of essays written on "Writing and Understanding Haiku"
I apologise for the repetition here but these originally appeared as individual essays and I don't have time, at the moment to properly consolidate them. - JRH

******

"Writing Haiku"

The Haiku was first introduced into English from the Japanese Form by the pioneers of the Imagist Movement and their poetic form of preference was "Free Verse" in order to separate themselves from the structured forms of the "Romantics/Classicists"

5-7-5 syllables was the form accepted (if somewhat arbitrarily), in the early years of Haiku written in English and was based on the 5-7-5 "onji" pattern perceived in the Japanese form

Onji is obviously a made up term imposed, (based, as you say, on a misunderstanding), to describe the character/time divisions in Japanese Haiku and is based on the number of sounds (on) or number of characters (ji) perceived and are not the basis for counting that the japanese use.

They were, at first compared to syllables because syllables were the basic division of speech in the English language and it took a while for those who worked to adapt the form to realize how different they were and how arbitrary a 5-7-5 pattern was, particularly in English whose syllables have a very different sound structure.

The 3-5-3 (or actually short-long-short) is the newer pattern that has evolved over time with English Haiku, but like the original 5-7-5 it's replaced, it is not truly arbitrary and often ignored.

I'm not sure why anyone would put down "Free Verse" in Haiku, as English Haiku has always been composed of "free verse" lines with rhyming of any kind discouraged (in either language, as far as I know).

What bothers me most with the modern form is the total emphasis on images for their own sake (which limits them to being purely descriptive) as opposed the concept that a Haiku should consist of a phrase and a statement which contain contrasting images that point out or reveal a truth or insight, (what most currently refer to as the "aha" moment).

I am less bothered by the tendency to omit the seasonal references, (as we don't have the body of traditional associations with them available in the English language) than I am the current tendency to base Haiku primarily on personal experience rather than on insight into the world around us, (whether that is limited to nature or not)

I have to admit, however, that, although I was introduced to Haiku in the 5-7-5 form, I have learned to be more comfortable with a short-long-short format simply because it allows one to avoid using unnecessary and superfluous modifiers to fill out arbitrary limitations, and I think that is one new development that was inevitable based on the differences between the languages.

In any case, it's not worth arguing about as forms such as Haiku, Tanka, Senryu and most forms that are either very short or based on set numbers of lines measured in set numbers of syllables are extremely limited in their scope and are more properly considered as "Verse" than as "Poetry" because of their lack of depth and complexity.
They can be fun, to write, particularly, if you try to accept the challenge of conforming to their Conventions, but they will never stand, (at least in the annals of English Literature) with the works of Yeats, Eliot, Frost, Browning, Tennyson or any major English poet,

"The Classic/Modern Debate"

Some insist on making the 5-7-5 the PRIMARY distinction between Classic and Modern Haiku. It is NOT.

Even old schoolers like me will concede that the difference between the English and Japanese lanquages, particularly the incompatability of syllables and onji (or whatever their termed now) makes it foolish to adhere and cling to such a standard arbitrarily.

That doesn't mean, however, that straying from the 5-7-5 standard means straying from the concept of the "Classic" Haiku. There is still such a thing a "poetic" licence in utilizing any form.

The important thing is that neither the differences in counting divisions nor the traditions and seasonal conventions drawn upon by the Japanese Haiku form, create any deterrent to adopting Classic Haiku to English, as the key to such is not these characteristics, which are SECONDARY, but the CONCEPTS that underlie the form, which basically consist of the contrasting of two images., (usually based on Nature) in such a way as to make a point or provide an insight which is hopefully universal and timeless, and those concepts can be adhered to as easily in English as in Japanese.

That is not to say that Haiku in English will be exactly the same as Japanese Haiku. They won't because of the differences in language and culture, but they can and should be based on the same principles and concepts if we chose to call such "Haiku" at all, because the only way that we can show respect for the original form is to try to emulate it's purpose, conventions, and traditions to the extent possible.

On the other hand, it can be said that the modernists make NO attempt to conform to those principles and that THAT is the chief difference between the Classic and Modern forms.

Practitioners of Modern Haiku have chosen instead to use the Haiku form as a stage for expressing the Experiential Imagism of the mainline modern poets in as concise and brief a fashion as possible in order to show off their skills at creating images drawn primarily from personal experience. This practice is totally opposed to the Classic Haiku concept as described above.

So-called Modern Haiku represent a separate form which should be titled accordingly, (perhaps something like "Snaps" as they are, for the most part, snapshots of personal experience), because they are NOT Haiku and should NOT be considered as such even if they should happen to utilize a 5-7-5 format, (which is of course unlikely because of the increasing emphasis modern Haiku places on minimalization.

I think it's time for everyone else to stop looking at simple comparisons and make a real study of the underlying philosophies and practices of the two forms, and realize they are going to have to make choices as to what kind of verse they right and whether what they write DESERVES to be called HAIKU.

There is "NOTHING" wrong with using subjects outside of past usage that are part of our modern world such as cell phones, space travel, terrorism, plasma screen tv's. Whatever is a part of our world SHOULD be part of our Haiku.

CONCEPTS that underlie the Classic form, which basically consist of the contrasting of two images., (usually based on Nature) in such a way as to make a point or provide an insight which is hopefully universal and timeless, should be followed and those concepts can be adhered to as easily in English as in Japanese, and that the modern form has ignored those and devoted itself to using the Haiku form as a stage for expressing the EXPERIENTIAL IMAGISM of the mainline modern poets in as concise and brief a fashion as possible in order to show off their skills at creating images drawn primarily from personal experience, and that is a VERY DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY and should, in fact, be treated as being a separate and distinct form on it's own merits.

I'm not saying The Modern Form is bad, only than it's DIFFERENT, (whether you can find MODERN experts to agree with you or not), and that every effort should be made to distinguish the two forms from each other.

I'm not the only one who thinks the old concepts are still viable, but I feel it necessary to point out that the Modern Form has, because of it's emphasis on IMAGE over INSIGHT and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE over universal activities, in fact, diverged and taken on a form of it's own, and deserves it's own name (which I usually refer to as "Faikku"

If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and acts like a duck and quacks like a duck,. You can call it a rose, it still quacks.

"Validity And Limitations of Haiku"

It would be wrong to assert that Modern Haiku has no "validity" in it's own right. One can only say that it represents a separate and distinct form from "Classic Haiku". Moreover, ALL forms such as Haiku, Senryu, Tanka, and those built of set numbers of lines and syllables constitute (with a VERY FEW exceptions) only verse because of their limitations of scope and depth, and I am only trying to put those forms in perspective with those accepted as being representative of English Language POETRY

It is those criteria, along with complexity and universality, along with craftsmanship, that separate Verse from Poetry in ANY case. Verse is not BAD. It is simply LESSER, either in INTENT, EXECUTION or BOTH.
Moreover, Being respected for WHAT you do is not the same as being considered equal to those Masters who wrote on a HIGHER level and produced work of far more scope ,depth. meaning and complexity than your form can contain.

When it can be SHOWN that Haiku can match the scope, depth, complexity, and power of poems written by the Masters like Yeats, Eliot or Froat, and that OTHERS agree with you in your conclusions, then and only then will I, PERSONALLY, consider Haiku as more than minor verse, suitable for honing one's language skills.

I'm not putting Modern Haiku down. I'm only saying that it has to be viewed in "Perspective". Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. All I'm trying to do is inject a sense of how the various forms are viewed within the context of English (or even World) Literature as a whole, and to make people aware of how their works may be judged by others, and how other people's works have been judged to have value over time.

I'm not making judgements. I'm trying to provide people with standards to judge by by showing how Verse and Poetry, (in all their forms), differ and why it is important to understand those distinctions, so that all may make better judgements for themselves.

Each individual still has to make their choices and the bottom line is that any Poet should write what they're most comfortable with, and that rules or distinctions mean nothing as long as the end result is effective in conveying meaning and insight

So keep writing and write brings you satisfaction in having done so.

*******

"Understanding "Onji""

If you really wish to get confused about the term "onji" I would suggest you read the essay "Stalking The Wild Onji" by Richard Gilbert at http://www.iyume.com/research/onji/ohji.html

Here is a SMALL excerpt from the whole which should give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

********

Onji is an obsolete linguistic term used to define "phonic characters," that is, characters (ji) which have sound (on), but not meaning. In modern times, this word has been supplanted by the term hyouon moji (similarly): characters (moji) which are representative (hyou) of sound (on), or simply "sound representative characters." Onji and hyouon moji are terms of categorical definition; neither term has ever been used to count up "syllables" in Japanese poetry.

Japanese generally uses two different counting terms for counting "syllables." One counter is -on. The other is -ji. They are two separate words. On means "sound," and Ji means "character." One can count up the 17 "syllables" in the typical haiku using either term:

If we refer to the number of "syllables" in a poem, we can ask, "How many -on?" or "How many -ji?" These questions ought to be quite clearly understood by modern Japanese people, when referring to poetry. For counting the total number of "syllables" in a poem, two terms are generally used. The first, and more strictly correct is -on, as in: "There are 17-on in that haiku." Also, people informally use moji. Moji is not generally used as a counter, but its meaning is virtually identical to -ji: a letter or character, that is, any written character. So people also say, "That haiku has 17-moji." Ji is not commonly used to count totals of "syllables" in poems. So, the most communicative terms used in contemporary Japan to count "syllables" in poetry are -on or -ji or sometimes moji, for totals.

'Syllables' has been enclosed within quotation marks, because with only few exceptions due to dialect, there is virtually no perception of English-style syllabification of words on the part of adult Japanese speakers. Natsuko Tsujimura mentions that "Specifically, English speakers divide words into syllables while Japanese speakers divide words into morae. Due to this difference, a native speaker of English divides 'London' into two syllables, while a native speaker of Japanese considers the word as consisting of four morae. [lo/n/do/n] . . . Mora is considered as a timing unit, especially within the larger context of words" (Tsujima 1996, pp. 64-6).
Basically, this means that, perceptually-speaking, Japanese speech is composed of small, timed units of sound, rather than syllables. Mora (plural, morae) is the term that both Japanese and English linguists often use to identify the 'time-unit sounds' of speech, which when put together, compose words in spoken Japanese.[3] With regard to Japanese poetry, the terms -on and -ji identify these same time-unit sounds. It is this time-sense division of sounds, rather than syllabification, which accounts for how words are parsed by Japanese speakers.

******

Basically, what he's saying is that "onji" is, at best, an "archaic" term which is no longer used (or even to a large degree recognized) by the Japanese and that the term, (as we know it) was pretty much created by those who sought to adapt Haiku, Senryu, Tanka, and other Japanese verse forms into English, by combining the Japanese words "on" for sound and "ji" for character.

Moreover, This concept, refers primarily to the spoken language and does not explain the relationship between the "spoken" and "written" Japanese, which, as far as I know, is a pictographic system in which each pictograph may encompass more than one word or thought (such as the concept of possession of an object) and which has no resemblance to the English alphabet. Moreover, I have been unable to find any articles that even TRY to do so.
That's why any English interpretation of Japanese verse forms is an approximation at best,

"A Haiku Primer For Beginners "

The key to learning to write Haiku is, of course to learn as much as you can about the form and read as wide a range of Haiku as possible

In doing so, one might try beginning with the "Official Definitions of Haiku and Related Terms" (with connecting links) at: http://www.hsa-haiku.org/HSA_Definitions_2004.html put out by the Haiku Society of America

Additionally, a brief overview and additional links can be found at: http://www.haikuhut.com/Haiku Definition.htm and a more comprehensive discussion can be found at: http://www.iyume.com/research/metrics/haikumet.html

Also check out Essays on haiku by Jane Reichhold and others, on this very comprehensive site -
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm

Between them, these links should answer most of the questions one has about the Haiku or related forms.

The easiest first step to take in writing your own Haiku is to imitate and/or emulate the Haiku written by the Masters. Here are some suggestions that I've posted on this Forum before.

Someone once posted a version of Basho's Frog/Pond poem on another forum that read like this:

The ancient pond
A frog leaps in
The sound of the water.

Translated by Donald Keene

Here is a yet another version of that poem, which I suspect is actually an imitation rather than a translation. I didn't write it. It was passed on to me by a friend and I have no idea who the original should be attributed to.

young frog
ancient pond
splash

Now, I personally prefer this version to the one to the Keene one because the word "splash" is more evocative than "sound of water" and the use of the words "young" and "ancient" gives a feeling of timelessness, inferring that this scenario has repeated itself endlessly through time.

This example is just the beginning of discovering what can be done with imitation and emulation.

To start things off, here is one I wrote a while back to imitate a pair of poems that was also also posted on that Forum illustrating the emulation of a translation.

His English version read:

a person walks slow
to get appreciation
of their surroundings

The second, he labled an imitation oriental translation version:

man walking slowly
has longer life in his eyes
roots for his being

My version, (which was based on the posted versions went like this and may be considered as much emulation as imitation, as it introduces an additional element of time):

he who walks slowly
appreciates more fully
all that he perceives.

Regrettably, The author of the original Haiku, was never named, so I have no way of making a comparison to the ACTUAL original. Nonetheless, I think that these three versions give ample examples of how imitation and emulation can be done.

I can say that my version was one of my favorites of those I have done and I think that those who try this will find it rewarding, so feel free to go ahead and take a stab at it, and for those who are interested, here is a site that contains over 30 translations of Basho's poem),including the Keene Translation cited above): http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/pa...basho-frog.htm

Moreover, experimenting with imitation or emulation should not be limited to those examples. A full range of classic and a few modern Haiku that can be used to work with can be found at:

http://www.toyomasu.com/haiku/

In the meantime, please note that the easiest way to imitate Haiku, particularly "classic" ones in the 5-7-5 form is to rewrite them in "modern" format.

Consider this Haiku by Basho

The first soft snow!
Enough to bend the leaves
Of the jonquil low.

A modern version might read something like

first snow
bends the jonquil leaves
down low

or more simply as with this Haiku by Hashin

No sky
no earth - but still
snowflakes fall

my version might be

no sky
no earth
still snowflakes fall

In this case all that really changes is the form of presentation but the thought remains.

It might seem that these are simply variations on the translations, and they are, but as I don't read or write Japanese,I can't translate the original myself, and it is my understanding that any adaptation of the original can constitute an imitation.

If I'm incorrect, I invite any one in the know, to correct me and clarify the distinctions between rewrites, imitations and emulations.

Beyond that, as a final example, consider this Haiku by Issa

In my old home
which I forsook, the cherries
are in bloom.

and my version

old home
forsaken
cherries still bloom

An emulation might be something like:

abandoned farmhouse
long forgotten
daffodils bloom anyway

Note that in this case, the subjects change but the concept remains the same.
_

Exercises like this are things anyone can do and I hope this gives everyone something to think about as well as some tools to work with.

*******

I have come to think, in studying Classic Japanese Haiku that they can be captured in English by those who faithfully follow their conventions and try to emulate their spirit rather than copying their style, and I have published a chapbook, "A Mixed Bag. Haiku, Senryu, and Aphorisms" that attempts to do just that, and can be found at http://www.shadowpoetry.com/bookstore/spnew.html. Check it out, (at least the samples) and judge for yourself to what extent I've succeeded.

James R. Hoye

Polenth

The following site from the Haiku Society of America http://www.hsa-haiku.org/frogpond/2009-issue32-3/index.html seems to indicate that that is true as most Haiku printed there are of the Modern variety with compressed forms that often ignore the 5-7-5 protocol as do the Ahapoetry.com site and the haikuhut.com sites cited in the previous message and follow few, if any of the classic conventions, (and these, as far as I can tell, are the 3 most popular Haiku Websites out there, which I suppose proves your point that Americans can't appreciate "True" Haiku - their loss)

For an idea of what such is like you might want to check out my Haiku Potpourri on this forum at: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75758 (Although they may tend to be a mixture of Haiku and Senryu)

JRH

I don't see the Choka listed here.

Choka is a form of Japanese long poetry that pre-dates the haiku. The most widely accepted pattern for the Choka is to start with a katuata of 5-7-5 syllables and continue in a 7-5 syllable pattern. It can be any odd number of lines and finishes with a 7-7 syllable count.

caseyquinn said:

1. Am I missing any other Japanese forms that are common in global use?
2. What is your favorite Japanese form?
3. As I mentioned it is quite common for me to see these forms in publications out today. This leads me to the question...Does Japanese structured poetry have a better chance of being accepted than traditional structured poetry such as a sonnet or another structured form. If so, why or why not?

Click to expand...

I'm not a great expert on Japanese forms, I have to say. I see English Haikus as a variant form of minimalism, which isn't my thing. Particularly, syllable-counting in a stressed language like English seems meaningless to me, but it does mean that free-form poets can take part, which they effectively can't with traditional structured forms. Until you've understood at some level about metre and stress, you can't write a successful sonnet.

One thing I don't see being mentioned here, (aside from the fact that the longer forms like Choka, and Haibun, incorporate Haiku) is that the Haiku used in such are ruled by different conventions than a "straight" Haiku is, and that the concept of using "syllables" with any of them is bogus for the same reason that it is incorrect in defining Haiku. (Japanese "on" or "mo" and "ji" are not equivalent to"syllables", and thus are open to interpretation in how they are translated, and when used in longer forms, the Haiku are subservient to the purpose of the overall work.

Just as a side note, The primary difference between Haiku and Senryu is the tone. and because of that Haiku and Senryu are often used interchangeably in most modern Haiku magazines, although Senryu is much more concerned with human nature, political issues, and satiric humor (making fun of things), which makes it somewhat similar to Modern Haiku, thus making the mixing of the two forms understandable.

For those interested, the following site, suggested to me by Norman Gutter, has a wealth of valuable essays on the aesthetics of the Modern haiku: http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/haiku/haiku.aesthetics.gurga.htm and covers many other related forms as well.

Just a note to Priene, all Japanese forms, particularly Haiku and Senryu predated the modern concept of mimalism by several centuries at least and I can't recall it's widespread use in English Language Poetry before this century.

JRH