Gk. and Lat.

boron · Nov 20, 2009

Medievalist said:
That's not the issue; the issue is that there is a correct and specific medical term. Use it. That's why English as a language created and stole those words--because they are not true synonyms."

Ok, so would you use pharynx or throat? Non-Latin based languages have correct and specific medical terms in their native languages. I was thinking that for most words English could also have correct native words. Not that I'm trying to teach English here, I'm just asking does windpipe, breastbone, bowel..used in a general health article sound "low" or "forced" for anyone.

Latin words are used in medicine worldwide to provide uniqeness and exactness of terms. But often, these terms are mainly for "internal use" among doctors. It's like in politics: someone can use simple or complicated terms...

PeterL · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
This exactly is my dilema: misunderstanding vs. oversimplicity.

I know there are "true" English words for all those terms borrowed from Latin. My question is, which words sound "normal" for a native English reader, reading a general health article:

You attempts at simplification did not hit the mark. [/QUOTE]

gastric or stomach almost every speaker of English would know gastric, which is not synonymous with stomach
esophagus or gullet or eating pipe esophagus is the term that is most commonly used. I have never encountered "eating pipe before
...for oral use or by mouth Oral would be the more common word for this use
subcutaneus or under skin Subcutaneous would be more readily understood by most people. Any native speaker who didn't understand it would need a very extensive explanation
dermal or skin "Dermal" means of the skin not "skin" it would depend on exactly what was meant.
nasal ..well...
cervical, thoracic, lumbar, sacral or neck, chest, loin, sacral region Lumbar does not refer to the loins; it means the lower back. These four terms usually need more explanation
sternum or breastbone Yes
bronchi or windpipes Either term would require additional explanation.
vascular, vasculitis or "of the vessels", inflammation of vessels Vascular is quite common. Some people would realize that "itis" means inflammation.
etiology or cause Good
conservative treatment or treatment with drugs Those phrases are not synonymous. conservative treatment mean vastly diferent things for different conditions.
colon or large bowel Colon is more common
abdomen or stomach Abdomen refers to the abdominal region, while the stomach is just the stomach
pelvis
sinuses
abscess or pus-filled cyst And there are are other specialized terms
inspiration, expiration ..well, inhalation, exhalation As I mentioned earlier, the second set is much more common, while the first set just don't fit.
pharynx, larynx or throat, voice box That is the best set of synonyms that you wrote.
recurrent or repeating

If I use breastbone or gullet in a serious health blog, does it sound odd?

Gullet isn't in common usage any more, so it would not be good to use. Breastbone wouldn't sound out of place in medical usage.

At which age a native English speaker would understand Latin-originating terms? At 14? At end of the high school? Or - a biologist would understand them, but an electro engineer wouldn't?

The terms that you listed are not specialized medical terms, so people would pick them up when they ran into them.

Brindle MacWuff · Nov 20, 2009

And now two Catholics familiar with Latin. Though as an ex-Altar boy, I never had the chance to use those particular words during a service. Unless it was getting really naughty.

All the words seem pretty straightforward. Scarletpeaches made a very good point about context. I wouldn't dumb any of them down. If they work, they work. It's all down to the use in a sentence.

I'm not sure if I'm being helpful here....more tea is required.

PeterL · Nov 20, 2009

1. gastric or stomach
2. esophagus or gullet down or eating pipe down
3. ...for oral use or by mouth down
4. subcutaneus or under skin down
5. dermal or skin different
6. nasal ..well...
7. cervical, thoracic, lumbar, sacral or neck, chest, loin, sacral region
8. sternum or breastbone either
9. bronchi or windpipes down
10. vascular, vasculitis or "of the vessels", inflammation of vessels
11. etiology or cause
12. conservative treatment or treatment with drugs
13. colon or large bowel down
14. abdomen or stomach different
15. pelvis
16. sinuses
17. abscess or pus-filled cyst equal
18. inhalation, exhalation up
19. pharynx, larynx or throat, voice box down
20. recurrent or repeating down

boron · Nov 20, 2009

PeterL said:
You attempts at simplification did not hit the mark.

gastric or stomach almost every speaker of English would know gastric, which is not synonymous with stomach
esophagus or gullet or eating pipe esophagus is the term that is most commonly used. I have never encountered "eating pipe before

OK, so I guess I should'n take all this as a single issue but should bo term by term.

This stomach really bothers me.

So, plase, anyone:

Stomach as an organ is called - stomach? In Latin it is gaster and this is why it is a gastric ulcer. What about stomach ulcer?

Stomach, as an abdominal cavity, containing several organs, is, in English, what - stomach again? People say: "I have pain in my upper stomach". I probably don't need to say "upper abdomen" here, right?

Then, some beer drinkers have big stomach (?) or belly or what?

What would a child say: My belly or tummy hurts. But then - is belly a child word? Beer drinkers often have big belly - does this sound funny?

PeterL said:
19. pharynx, larynx or throat, voice box down

So, you all people are fine with pharynx and larynx? Just asking.

backslashbaby · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
gastric or stomach almost every speaker of English would know gastric, which is not synonymous with stomach

esophagus or gullet or eating pipe esophagus is the term that is most commonly used. I have never encountered "eating pipe before

OK, so I guess I should'n take all this as a single issue but should bo term by term.

This stomach really bothers me.

So, plase, anyone:

Stomach as an organ is called - stomach? In Latin it is gaster and this is why it is a gastric ulcer. What about stomach ulcer?

Yes, the organ is stomach. Gastric ulcer or stomach ulcer sound fine.

Stomach, as an abdominal cavity, containing several organs, is, in English, what - stomach again?
We say abdomen.

People say: "I have pain in my upper stomach". I probably don't need to say "upper abdomen" here, right?
I'd say abdomen. Stomach is pretty specific to the organ.

Then, some beer drinkers have big stomach (?) or belly or what?
That's very colloquial. We know it shouldn't be called a stomach. Belly sounds better for that.

What would a child say: My belly or tummy hurts. But then - is belly a child word? Beer drinkers often have big belly - does this sound funny?
Beer belly sounds casual but normal. For a less casual term, maybe waistline? Anything medical though, I'd say abdomen.

So, you all people are fine with pharynx and larynx? Just asking.

I thought pharynx was the hardest one.

Duncan J Macdonald · Nov 20, 2009

Boron,

I agree with Medievalist -- English stole those terms in toto from the Latin or Greek and made them its own.

And I, for one, am blessed to be both raised Catholic, and to be an electrical engineer. I also studied Latin for two years in High School, and I prostrate myself in awe at the feet of people like Medievalist who can read Latin, Greek, Hebrew, et alia in the original. Intaminatis fulget honoribus!

PeterL · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
gastric or stomach almost every speaker of English would know gastric, which is not synonymous with stomach

esophagus or gullet or eating pipe esophagus is the term that is most commonly used. I have never encountered "eating pipe before

OK, so I guess I should'n take all this as a single issue but should go term by term.

This stomach really bothers me.

So, plase, anyone:

Stomach as an organ is called - stomach? In Latin it is gaster and this is why it is a gastric ulcer. What about stomach ulcer?

Stomach, as an abdominal cavity, containing several organs, is, in English, what - stomach again? People say: "I have pain in my upper stomach". I probably don't need to say "upper abdomen" here, right?

Upper stomach!! That's a new one. If one means abdomen, then one would say abdomen. The stomach is not the same as abdominal cavity. The stomach is just one thing that's in there. For ulcers, both stomach and gastric are in common use by medical and non-medical people.

Then, some beer drinkers have big stomach (?) or belly or what?

Beer belly or sometimes just "gut"

What would a child say: My belly or tummy hurts. But then - is belly a child word? Beer drinkers often have big belly - does this sound funny?

Beer drinkers have beer bellies.

So, you people are fine with pharynx and larynx? Just asking.

Pharynx and larynx are very specific, so they work. If one is speaking of the outside of that region, then "Throat" would be used more commonly, but for the inside the Latin terms are best.

boron · Nov 20, 2009

Duncan J Macdonald said:
Boron,

I agree with Medievalist -- English stole those terms in toto from the Latin or Greek and made them its own.

And I, for one, am blessed to be both raised Catholic, and to be an electrical engineer. I also studied Latin for two years in High School, and I prostrate myself in awe at the feet of people like Medievalist who can read Latin, Greek, Hebrew, et alia in the original. Intaminatis fulget honoribus!

Duncan, do you by any chance have a link of a decent free online English-Latin dictionary ?

blacbird · Nov 20, 2009

I have no problem with any of these terms. But I'm also a scientist by profession; non-scientists may not be familiar with many of these medical/anatomical terms.

On the other hand, Dr. House uses terms like these all the time, and everybody watches him.

caw

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
Ok, so would you use pharynx or throat? Non-Latin based languages have correct and specific medical terms in their native languages. I was thinking that for most words English could also have correct native words. Not that I'm trying to teach English here, I'm just asking does windpipe, breastbone, bowel..used in a general health article sound "low" or "forced" for anyone.

I think possibly if you have to ask these kinds of questions that perhaps you are not fluent enough in English to be writing these pieces.

Here's why: throat is less specific than esophagus. If you mean the entire area from the chin to the collar-bone, throat is fine. If you mean the esophagus then you need to use esophagus. This is less-rule based than it is a matter of native familiarity and a high level of comfort with English at the middle range of formality. This is something one gains with experience and exposure. There is no other way.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
Duncan, do you by any chance have a link of a decent free online English-Latin dictionary ?

That's not going to help you; medical terms borrowed into English from Latin do not necessarily retain the meanings they have in Classical Latin.

When high school students are preparing for the SAT, they work with Latin and Greek roots; that will be far more efficacious than a dictionary.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
Ok, so would you use pharynx or throat?

Pharynx isn't a synonym for throat. Like esophagus, and larynx, it refers to a specific part of the throat.

As a general tendency English will have a term for the section of the body (throat, brain, stomach, leg) but the specific sections or parts or areas or organs of that large section will have names kidnapped from Latin or Greek.

Duncan J Macdonald · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
Duncan, do you by any chance have a link of a decent free online English-Latin dictionary ?

Sorry, but no. Those two terms tend to be self canceling -- decent and free.

boron · Nov 20, 2009

Medievalist said:
Pharynx isn't a synonym for throat. Like esophagus, and larynx, it refers to a specific part of the throat.

Yes, pharynx and larynx compose the throat. Non-Latin based languages have specific native words for both parts, and most of educated people speaking these languages will have no clue what's pharynx or larynx, since Latin words are not usually used in any lay press. Now, I was thinking that English speaking people would have the same problem, and some of them actually have.

A doctor will look into your throat, even if he only looks into your pharynx.

Throat, in English, is commonly used as a synonym for either the pharynx or larynx, so as some have pointed out, it's probably context that prevents confusion.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
A doctor will look into your throat, even if he only looks into your pharynx.

Throat, in English, is commonly used as a synonym for either the pharynx or larynx, so as some have pointed out, it's probably context that prevents confusion.

It is not thus used by people who know what they are talking about. Again, in English throat is the larger section; pharynx, larynx, and esophagus are sections, or parts of the throat.

A mechanic will look at your engine to check spark plugs.

Also: English uses Latin terms because the roots of English are in Old English--a medieval langauge that was essentially killed in the 11th century. The medical knowledge of Anglo-Saxon physicians was a bit limited [cough] and they looked to Classical medical texts written in Latin for much of their medical practice and theory.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 20, 2009

Use teh best and simplest word that does the job. If this means a technical word, use teh technical word. If a simpler, universally understood word does the job, use it.

One of the things most wrong with this world, be it medical, legal, or political, is the irrational need to use jargon and technical terms when simple words will do the job, and they usually will.

IceCreamEmpress · Nov 20, 2009

The articles on the Mayo Clinic website are wonderful examples of complex medical information presented for the lay US reader; I'd encourage you to take their level of diction as the gold standard.

elfinwriter · Nov 20, 2009

boron said:
This exactly is my dilema: misunderstanding vs. oversimplicity.

I know there are "true" English words for all those terms borrowed from Latin. My question is, which words sound "normal" for a native English reader, reading a general health article:

gastric or stomach

esophagus or gullet or eating pipe

...for oral use or by mouth

subcutaneus or under skin

dermal or skin

nasal ..well...

cervical, thoracic, lumbar, sacral or neck, chest, loin, sacral region

sternum or breastbone

bronchi or windpipes

vascular, vasculitis or "of the vessels", inflammation of vessels

etiology or cause

conservative treatment or treatment with drugs

colon or large bowel

abdomen or stomach

pelvis

sinuses

abscess or pus-filled cyst

inspiration, expiration ..well, inhalation, exhalation

pharynx, larynx or throat, voice box

recurrent or repeating

If I use breastbone or gullet in a serious health blog, does it sound odd?

At which age a native English speaker would understand Latin-originating terms? At 14? At end of the high school? Or - a biologist would understand them, but an electro engineer wouldn't?

What's down, what's up - this is now the question.

As a British person and as an ex nurse, I am fully aware of the words you have listed and know what they mean. I have to say however, that you don't have the correct meaning of some of them. It's unlikely that lay people in general would know the meanings of some of the words although they would possibly have an idea. People rarely use those words in every day life and if you think about it, would you say to your mother,"Oh I have a pain in my trachea." More likely to say, "Oh I have a sore throat." Medical terminology is usually reserved and used by those working in the medical field - Doctors, Nurses etc. If, for example, in a novel, a character is giving an injection of some substance to a patient, the character wouldn't say., "I'm just going to give you a needle into the dermis." Do you get my drift? Use the K.I.S.S. principle and allow the reader to visualize the action rather than have it explained. As for your question about learning these words at a certain age. There is no age and these words would only come up if the pupil is doing Anatomy and Biology, or if one pursued a medical/nursing career. As for the 'serious medical blog' - use sensible words that most people understand, or if using words from your list, make sure YOU understand them first otherwise it can sound pompous. (too tired to correct spelling tonight lol.)

Suki M · Nov 20, 2009

Here's a suggestion.

If you're talking about ONE health blog, why not put up a glossary and use the Latin terms as they are? If someone is following a health blog, that someone had better get used to the most accurate terms for body parts.

Also, every online space has a target audience. If you are targeting the general public, imply the meaning of technical terms through the context. And if you are targeting people with at least a high school education, the technical terms should really be enough.

Elfinwriter seems to have the most solid answer. People talk about "throat pain", or "stomachaches". The doctor explains it in terms of the pharynx/larynx, or the liver/pancreas/stomach/duodenum. Keep the voice of the "speaker" in mind when you write, and use the words accordingly.

Good luck!

boron · Nov 21, 2009

@Medievalist. Throat, as usually described in health/medical texts, consists of pharynx and larynx, which extend almost through the entire length of the neck. Only small portions of the esophagus and trachea lie in the neck; their main parts are behind the breastbone, so in the chest or thorax, or mediastinum if you want. Dictionary.com mentions esophagus and trachea as part of the throat, but they are not considered as throat in medical literature.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/throatdisorders.html http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/throatdisorders.html even says: "Throat disorders, also called pharyngeal disorders"..."The technical name for the throat is pharynx." They have "skipped" the larynx here, but for the reason: in practical medicine, throat = pharynx; sore throat, strep throat, inflamed throat, throat examination are all related exclusively to pharynx.

The same reputable site describes throat cancer as a cancer of voice box, vocal cords and other parts of the throat (so, they included larynx - voice box and vocal cords (but not esophagus and trachea) - into the throat).

Accuracy in health writing means a lot to me, but still I don't find all throat issues mentioned so far as problematic. Obviously, throat means different things in different context.

@Jamesaritchie. Health forums are loaded with questions, like "Can someone explain these results to me?" Technically, it's only a doctor who should interpret results of tests, but he should explain them to the patient in an understandable language. My articles try to explain.

@IceCreamEmpress. Mayoclinic.com, if you ask me, uses forcedly explanatory language.

@elfinwriter. My examples are correct - it is a noun/adverb issue written outside of the context that makes them seemingly incorrect. Stomach = abdomen is often used on health forums, so I thought it's a common usage.

@Suki M. I do link to "medical terminology" section of the blog from my articles. If I link out ten times, it becomes annoying.

Yes, I am actively looking for a native English proofreader (physician).

PeterL · Nov 21, 2009

boron said:
Yes, pharynx and larynx compose the throat. Non-Latin based languages have specific native words for both parts, and most of educated people speaking these languages will have no clue what's pharynx or larynx, since Latin words are not usually used in any lay press. Now, I was thinking that English speaking people would have the same problem, and some of them actually have.

A doctor will look into your throat, even if he only looks into your pharynx.

Throat, in English, is commonly used as a synonym for either the pharynx or larynx, so as some have pointed out, it's probably context that prevents confusion.

While the Pharynx and larynx are parts of the throat, that does not make them equivalent terms. Throat means the region from the chin to te collar bone, but excluding the cervical vertabrae. The top of the trachea, the larynx, and the pharynx are interion part of the throat. The esophagus starts in the pharynx, but I don't know whether anyone would say that it is part of the throat.

The Greek and Latin terms do not necessarily correspond precisely with the English terms, and you certainly do not want to use expiration when you mean exhalation.

boron · Nov 21, 2009

PeterL said:
While the Pharynx and larynx are parts of the throat, that does not make them equivalent terms. Throat means the region from the chin to te collar bone, but excluding the cervical vertabrae. The top of the trachea, the larynx, and the pharynx are interion part of the throat. The esophagus starts in the pharynx, but I don't know whether anyone would say that it is part of the throat.

Agree completely.

The Greek and Latin terms do not necessarily correspond precisely with the English terms, and you certainly do not want to use expiration when you mean exhalation.

Inspiration and expiration are physiological terms; I probably never used them in my articles. Inspiration happens when you are inspired, and I'm not sure if anyone wants to know his expiration date.

About Latin terms not matching corresponding English-Latin terms, I'd need to see some examples. I believe the Latin pharynx and English pharynx match - why shouldn't they?

PeterL · Nov 21, 2009

boron said:
Inspiration and expiration are physiological terms; I probably never used them in my articles. Inspiration happens when you are inspired, and I'm not sure if anyone wants to know his expiration date.

While inspiration does appear in medical dictionaries, medical personnel avoid saying inspiration, because of its more common spiritual meaning, and similarly for expiration.

About Latin terms not matching corresponding English-Latin terms, I'd need to see some examples. I believe Latin pharynx and English pharynx match - why shouldn't they?

Do you mean the Latin words or specialized medical terms that are derived from Latin words. The two are not the same. For example, "Definition of pharynx in the Online Dictionary. Meaning of pharynx. ... [via New Latin from Greek pharunx throat; related to Greek pharanx chasm]"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pharynx

In Latin "sinus" means "bay" or "gulf", and that has little relationship with the anatomical "sinus".

boron · Nov 21, 2009

PeterL said:
Do you mean the Latin words or specialized medical terms that are derived from Latin words. The two are not the same. For example, "Definition of pharynx in the Online Dictionary. Meaning of pharynx. ... [via New Latin from Greek pharunx throat; related to Greek pharanx chasm]"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pharynx

In Latin "sinus" means "bay" or "gulf", and that has little relationship with the anatomical "sinus".

It's quite possible that peri-nasal sinuses got their name from the "bay".

Gk. and Lat.

boron

Health writer

PeterL

Brindle MacWuff

PeterL

boron

Health writer

backslashbaby

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Duncan J Macdonald

Plotting! Not Plodding!

PeterL

boron

Health writer

blacbird

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

Duncan J Macdonald

Plotting! Not Plodding!

boron

Health writer

Deleted member 42

Jamesaritchie

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

elfinwriter

elfinwriter

Suki M

Tiptoeing into quicksand

boron

Health writer

PeterL

boron

Health writer

PeterL

boron

Health writer

Gk. and Lat.

Health writer

Health writer

~~~~*~~~~

Plotting! Not Plodding!

Health writer

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

Plotting! Not Plodding!

Health writer

Deleted member 42

Hapless Virago

elfinwriter

Tiptoeing into quicksand

Health writer

Health writer

Health writer

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