Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

euclid · Nov 16, 2009

That was a very helpful link, Steve. Thanks. I read buckets of learned stuff about the passive voice, including some inspired stuff from Jim. I'm much clearer about it now. I think I know when the passive voice can be useful and when it shouldn't be used.

I followed another thread about Strunk and White which ~~was~~ I found quite educational too.

Amb the Creative · Nov 16, 2009

HConn said:
Which is fine for learning to write, but the goal ought to be the ability to judge the quality of your own work. Beta readers are great, but it's more important to [URL deleted by webmaster's request]be the expert.

But doesn't getting feedback help you with that? How do you judge the quality of your own work? I often end up trying to fix something that should be scrapped and redone until someone pointed it out and/or read some piece of information on how to fix it. Isn't it this process that teaches you how to judge yourself?

smsarber · Nov 16, 2009

euclid said:
That was a very helpful link, Steve. Thanks. I read buckets of learned stuff about the passive voice, including some inspired stuff from Jim. I'm much clearer about it now. I think I know when the passive voice can be useful and when it shouldn't be used.

I followed another thread about Strunk and White which ~~was~~ I found quite educational too.

Glad I could help :Hug2:

.

Blue Sky · Nov 16, 2009

Amb the Creative said:
But doesn't getting feedback help you with that? How do you judge the quality of your own work? I often end up trying to fix something that should be scrapped and redone until someone pointed it out and/or read some piece of information on how to fix it. Isn't it this process that teaches you how to judge yourself?

Yes, feedback helps immeasurably. You need feedback to help get your bearings and discover where and how your writing stands. Wear your rhinohide suit. Ooo how crits hurt sometimes! Remember what Jim says. Readers may know that something isn't right, but rarely know the reason why or how to correct it.

I've found informed, honest readers priceless, so I'm mindful of their time. I balance whether to share something early with a person based on our prior interaction. If the reader enjoys navigating rough drafts, perhaps I'll share. If unpolished work offends, I'll share only after polishing. It's a touchy feelie thing.

Whatever you do, keep writing. A number of successful writers--Bradbury to name one, Jim?--mention how they hit their stride somewhere around the million word mark. The ability to edit one's work grows with experience--in my experience. Enjoy the journey!

NicoleJLeBoeuf · Nov 16, 2009

Amb the Creative said:
But doesn't getting feedback help you with that? How do you judge the quality of your own work?

I tend to self-judge whether I have created a piece of fiction that reads enjoyably--language that flows, images that please the inner eye, etc.--because I know what I like to read. Improving this sense has been an organic process of life-long reading, really. I think it's easier for me because I do reread my favorite books, which I enjoy doing not just to experience a beloved story over again but also to figure out how the author did those things that made me so happy.

What I find critiques valuable for is finding out whether what was in my head actually made it onto the page and into the reader's head, and whether what I've written is enjoyable for them to read too. Incorporating this sort of feedback and producing a new draft that is still true to the story in my head and succeeds better at getting it into someone else's is a challenge that I suspect will always remain difficult for me, but rewarding when I get it right.

NicoleJLeBoeuf · Nov 16, 2009

BigWords said:
(It's the guy whose books Neil Gaiman collects, if that rings any bells...)

Which one?

Fillanzea · Nov 16, 2009

euclid said:
That was a very helpful link, Steve. Thanks. I read buckets of learned stuff about the passive voice, including some inspired stuff from Jim. I'm much clearer about it now. I think I know when the passive voice can be useful and when it shouldn't be used.

I followed another thread about Strunk and White which ~~was~~ I found quite educational too.

Sorry, but I have to interject, because identifying the passive voice correctly is one of my pet peeves.

NOUN is/was/used to be ADJECTIVE is not passive. It's not necessarily a very strong construction and it's often worth avoiding, but it's not the same as the passive voice. Passive is only if the verb is being done to the subject of the sentence.

The reports were falsified.
My elderly neighbors were defrauded.
Mistakes were made.

bearilou · Nov 17, 2009

NicoleJLeBoeuf said:
Which one?

Holy cow. That's a lot of books and now I don't feel so bad about my own, apparently meager, collection.

BigWords · Nov 17, 2009

NicoleJLeBoeuf said:
Which one?

I guess I should have expected that.

Found the genius / madman (delete as applicable): Harry Stephen Keeler.

ETA: This.

euclid · Nov 18, 2009

BigWords: Are you saying that Neil Gaiman has some of Keeler's work in his library?

James D. Macdonald · Nov 18, 2009

I just posted this in another thread, but I think I'll repost it here:

Check out any best-seller list. Look at the top five or ten names.

Where did they publish their first books? Same place, right?

Now look at those publishing houses. They have lots of best-sellers, right?

So: If you want to be a best-seller, make sure your first book comes out from a house that regularly publishes best-sellers.

----------

Why five or ten names? Because doing the research on a hundred won't change the results but will take quite a bit of time.

---------

Meanwhile, over at CNN: Sarah Palin's publishing and political worlds in collision

We read, from Mary Matalin:

Full disclosure: Threshold Editions, an imprint of Simon and Schuster, (for which I serve as editor-in-chief, a misnomer of a title, since my editing is confined to reading; for you political types, think, "operative/organizer") would have loved to acquire Sarah Palin's book.

And ...

We are now all watching very closely how it plays out (and more precisely, "earns-out") in a book market that's unpredictable and fickle always, but in major transition today. The pre-orders immediately kicked it onto the best-seller lists, but a dirty little secret of publishing (where spin is as prevalent as in politics) is not all best-sellers earn out (i.e., the publisher sells enough books to cover an author's advance, which is the threshold for making a profit).

At which point I pinch the bridge of my nose and shake my head. I think "for which I serve as figurehead" would have been more accurate than "for which I serve as editor-in-chief." It's clear that she hasn't a clue about the business side of the house, and didn't check with any of the day-to-day editors, or the publisher.

In sober fact, the publisher makes a profit long before the book earns out. (Exception: when the advance is some ludicrous amount that is offered for something other than book-selling business reasons. When they start playing that game, all I can say is, "Don't gamble with money you can't afford to lose.")

Still, any number of people are going to see that codswallop, and think that an Editor Said So, So It Must Be True.

BigWords · Nov 18, 2009

euclid said:
BigWords: Are you saying that Neil Gaiman has some of Keeler's work in his library?

Gaiman answers this himself through his journal. Alan Moore is also mentioned as having Keeler's books by Gaiman, and in the article (which prompted the answer in the jounal) it's mentioned that Matt Groening (yes, the Simpsons creator) is also a fan.

HConn · Nov 18, 2009

Amb the Creative said:
But doesn't getting feedback help you with that? How do you judge the quality of your own work? I often end up trying to fix something that should be scrapped and redone until someone pointed it out and/or read some piece of information on how to fix it. Isn't it this process that teaches you how to judge yourself?

Yes, feedback will help identify how readers react to text. It's important to also judge your own reactions to text written by others; basically, you pick apart stories, paragraphs and sentences to figure out why they work on you the way they do.

That's vital, and several of UJ's exercises in this long two-part thread focus on that.

maestrowork · Nov 18, 2009

That's why reading widely and the ability to do critical analysis on what you read are so important. A) you know what you like and you tend to write what you like and know. B) By understanding why you like them, you have a better chance of getting it right (but not necessarily "imitating") because you'd have internalized everything already.

To me, "reading widely" and "critical analysis" go hand in hand. Some writers believe as long as they read, they will become good writers. That's not really true, or else everyone who reads a lot would be best-selling authors already. I firmly believe that we must learn to analyze and internalize what we read if we want to learn to write well.

Izz · Nov 18, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Meanwhile, over at CNN: Sarah Palin's publishing and political worlds in collision

We read, from Mary Matalin:

And ...

At which point I pinch the bridge of my nose and shake my head. I think "for which I serve as figurehead" would have been more accurate than "for which I serve as editor-in-chief." It's clear that she hasn't a clue about the business side of the house, and didn't check with any of the day-to-day editors, or the publisher.

In sober fact, the publisher makes a profit long before the book earns out. (Exception: when the advance is some ludicrous amount that is offered for something other than book-selling business reasons. When they start playing that game, all I can say is, "Don't gamble with money you can't afford to lose.")

Still, any number of people are going to see that codswallop, and think that an Editor Said So, So It Must Be True.

What's with all the misinformation and disingenuousness we're getting from major publishers right now? Harlequin's new 'self-publishing' arm (outright lie, that one) and this, and there's a couple other examples on the tip of my tongue. What gives?

Calliopenjo · Nov 18, 2009

Hi Uncle Jim,

While hunting character interview questions I happened upon a page that said character traits can help tell the reader what the character looks like. Help them to imagine what they look like.

Words like thoughtful, sly, slovenly, caring, etc. are listed on the page. If I say that the character is a caring and intelligent human being wouldn't that be telling leading the reader in my direction rather than letting them interpret the story on their own?

eqb · Nov 18, 2009

Calliopenjo said:
If I say that the character is a caring and intelligent human being wouldn't that be telling leading the reader in my direction rather than letting them interpret the story on their own?

Yes, you know your character is caring (or whatever). But you don't *say* that. Instead you *show* that through various scenes.

Albannach · Nov 18, 2009

Oh, I know this is late, but thanks for posting the index to the first one. I wanted to read it but the length is so intimidating.

James D. Macdonald · Nov 18, 2009

Calliopenjo said:
If I say that the character is a caring and intelligent human being wouldn't that be telling leading the reader in my direction rather than letting them interpret the story on their own?

Well, leading the readers in the direction we want them to go is pretty much what this whole art is about. The trick is doing it so they don't know they're being led (or if they do know, so they enjoy it).

In other news: Yesterday brought the first two author's pre-release copies of the paperback The Apocalypse Door. It's getting real.

Today brought a new computer (that I must set up). If I vanish, that's why.

Also today, news of the release date for Lincoln's Sword. Be the first Cool Kid on your block to preorder!

Calliopenjo · Nov 18, 2009

Thanks guys. Sometimes it's the simple things that I forget. :Hug2:

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar · Nov 18, 2009

On the topic of books earning out, here is a blog post I found on the subject. It mentions one other possibility for books not being profitable once they're earned out.

Calliopenjo · Nov 18, 2009

On another website, somebody posted this link. It's Tom's Glossary of Book Publishing Terms.

It's a hilarious look at the terms we hear.

entrancia · Nov 22, 2009

Hi, Jim,
I was wondering, is writing short poems good for practicing the writing of novels? I know it would help me for the sake of learning flow, word choice, and images to do so, but would skills in poetry really carry over that much to writing a novel (especially if the poems have no plot or storyline), or are the two just a little too seperate? Should I just write poetry for poems and stories for novels?
I feel like this is a stupid question, but I still can't think of a completely right answer for it.

James D. Macdonald · Nov 23, 2009

1) No writing is wasted.

2) Picking the exactly-right word is a skill that can be improved with practice.

3) Writing poetry will teach you how to write poetry; writing a novel will teach you how to write novels. Letting one substitute for the other can become cat-waxing.

4) There's no reason why you can't do both.

5) Whatever you do, don't forget that the process only ends when you send the product to a market that can buy it.

euclid · Nov 23, 2009

Jim, I stumbled across one of your shorts on the web. It was about Beka at Suivi Point with LeSoit. I liked it. Spotted a couple of minor typos of course (as I always do). Nice story. Some interesting touches. The story was called "On Suivi Point". I found it here:

www.sff.net/people/DoyleMacdonald/L_suivi.htm

You should work "catwaxing" into one of your stories as a futuristic and entirely decadent form of relaxation.

Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

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