Show Me The Money

Toothpaste · Nov 11, 2009

mware01 said:
The author should be treated as an asset.

We'll just have to agree to disagree (very respectfully).

Okay guys there are two different conversations going on here. There's the answer to the question, "How much of an advance does a kid author typically get?" and then there is the debate if that is fair or not.

Mware01 - I think you are a little confused as to what is being discussed. You are talking about in an ideal world, and no one disagrees with you that an author should be respected and treated as an asset. What they are trying to point out to you that in the real world, the numbers are different than you'd like them to be. What they are further pointing out to you is that with the economy the way it is now, editors are giving even lower advances than they did in the past.

There is no agree to disagree going on. Everyone agrees authors should be treated well. But they get the advances they get. Maybe it will change, but probably not right now considering the way publishing is going these days. So we can all sit back and long for something else, but you can't disagree on the reality.

Smish · Nov 11, 2009

Toothpaste said:
Okay guys there are two different conversations going on here. There's the answer to the question, "How much of an advance does a kid author typically get?" and then there is the debate if that is fair or not.

Mware01 - I think you are a little confused as to what is being discussed. You are talking about in an ideal world, and no one disagrees with you that an author should be respected and treated as an asset. What they are trying to point out to you that in the real world, the numbers are different than you'd like them to be. What they are further pointing out to you is that with the economy the way it is now, editors are giving even lower advances than they did in the past.

There is no agree to disagree going on. Everyone agrees authors should be treated well. But they get the advances they get. Maybe it will change, but probably not right now considering the way publishing is going these days. So we can all sit back and long for something else, but you can't disagree on the reality.

Thank you for posting, Toothpaste! You've summed up exactly what I was thinking but couldn't quite put into words.

AlishaS · Nov 11, 2009

Wow I have found this super insightful, I never really had any understanding about what do expect for a book advance, and I it is a wide range in each catagory but hey at least its a starting point to understanding more about the business.

MJWare · Nov 11, 2009

Ya, I guess I didn't explain myself very well.

Hedgetrimmer's information is extremely valuable.

Also, I didn't realize 5k had become the standard advance for first time authors. I thought it was 7.5 or 10k for all but the smaller houses.

Amarie · Nov 11, 2009

mware01 said:
Ya, I guess I didn't explain myself very well.

Hedgetrimmer's information is extremely valuable.

Also, I didn't realize 5k had become the standard advance for first time authors. I thought it was 7.5 or 10k for all but the smaller houses.

I wouldn't say it's standard, because the exact amounts are rarely released. The main point I was trying to make in an earlier post is that 50K would be incredibly high for most debut authors in YA/MG, unless a book goes to auction, or is a pre-empt deal.

BetsyJ · Nov 11, 2009

I've published more than 55 books for children. I used to think along the lines of YAwriter72. Unfortunately, it doesn't quite work that way. Larger publishers put books out of print after a year or two, sometimes even if those books are selling well. Smaller publishers tend to keep books in print longer--but you can't count on it.

Smaller publishers get bought out by larger publishers or go bankrupt more often than you might think. I have several books that have brought me steady royalties over a period of years, and the majority of my books earned back their advances (and then some). But don't count on an income from your backlist. Very few writers--even the big names--are able to live off the money from their books.

Ellen Jackson, author
www.ellenjackson.net
THE WINTER SOLSTICE

MJWare · Nov 11, 2009

Backlists are probably great for (adult) non-fiction and technical.
I self published a technical manual in 2003. I made a few hundred dollars a month off it for the first 2-3 years. Now I get a small check every month. If I'm lucky it's enough to take the wife for a nice dinner out.

At the time I figured I'd need to publish two books a year to make a marginal living. Technical writing is so boring (and research intensive) that I decided against it. Plus you can make three times as much doing technical writing for a corporation.

sissybaby · Nov 12, 2009

thank you, Hedgetrimmer

I am so glad that this thread was started, because a question regarding royalties and advances has been in the back of my mind, but I wasn't sure where to post it.

Does anyone know how an advance or royalties would affect someone who is either drawing disability payments or social security retirement pay?

I can see how an advance - especially a larger one - would adversely affect either case. Although, in all fairness, I don't know how one would break it all down into accurate money.

For instance, the book may have taken a year or more to write, and then more time to polish and query. So how would the government penalize someone in this case?

I'm sure they would get their fair share and more, but then would they say, like in the case of someone who is on permanent disability, that they are obviously not actually disabled, and so stop their payments and their medical insurance? What if the author never again writes a selling novel or non-fiction work?

And I know once a person begins receiving social security retirement pay, they can only make a certain amount each month without losing those payments. I think.

So do you have to prove yourself by selling more than one book? Could one publication be considered a fluke? Does any of it matter? Sorry, I just don't understand how any of that would work.

I can see how, in some cases, even no advance might be of benefit.

MJWare · Nov 12, 2009

Sissybaby,
I don't have the answer. Hopefully someone will chime in with more information. However, I do know a little bit about taxes, some of which might apply.

First, tax laws for authors is way complicated. There's special laws that apply and special tests the IRS uses to see if you are really writing for profit or just as a hobby.

This allows authors to do things like deduct the cost of expensives years before they actually sell a book.

You might (I really have no idea) benefit from a classification called, hobby income. That would be if you are not writing as a professional, but for fun and just happen to make a little extra cash doing it.

There might (again I have no idea) be a chance you could categorize you magazine or even book income as hobby income and then it might not affect your benefits.

If no one on the forums can give you good advice. I'd look for a non-profit that helps people with disability claims. Tell them this is just a hobby for you (or whomever), and you want to make sure that if you do sell a book you don't loose benefits.

kellion92 · Nov 12, 2009

BetsyJ said:
I've published more than 55 books for children.

BetsyJ/Ellen, thanks for your insight! It's great to have such an experienced voice join in.

Smish · Nov 12, 2009

sissybaby said:
I am so glad that this thread was started, because a question regarding royalties and advances has been in the back of my mind, but I wasn't sure where to post it.

Does anyone know how an advance or royalties would affect someone who is either drawing disability payments or social security retirement pay?

I can see how an advance - especially a larger one - would adversely affect either case. Although, in all fairness, I don't know how one would break it all down into accurate money.

For instance, the book may have taken a year or more to write, and then more time to polish and query. So how would the government penalize someone in this case?

I'm sure they would get their fair share and more, but then would they say, like in the case of someone who is on permanent disability, that they are obviously not actually disabled, and so stop their payments and their medical insurance? What if the author never again writes a selling novel or non-fiction work?

And I know once a person begins receiving social security retirement pay, they can only make a certain amount each month without losing those payments. I think.

So do you have to prove yourself by selling more than one book? Could one publication be considered a fluke? Does any of it matter? Sorry, I just don't understand how any of that would work.

I can see how, in some cases, even no advance might be of benefit.

Sissy:

Those are very good questions, but they require legal advice. There should be benefits counselors in your area (possibly through your local Legal Aid office) who can answer your questions and point you to the appropriate SSA regs.

I would imagine a large advance would interrupt disability benefits, so it's definitely a good idea to find out the answers now (though you'll have to stay on top of the regs, since they're changed/updated often).

Smish

Hedgetrimmer · Nov 12, 2009

That's a good question, Sissy, but I have no idea. What I do know is that royalties (and this would include an advance) are taxed in a higher bracket than regular income. It's almost as if the IRS thinks writing and selling a book isn't real work but simply found money like hitting the lottery. I hate the IRS.

sissybaby · Nov 12, 2009

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Yeah, ditto on the hate issue. The jerks are always turning the screws. But I had no idea that authors are in a higher tax bracket. That makes no sense at all. If I figured out how many hours, months, years I might invest, the hourly rate would be a negative balance, even if I sold a bazillion copies.

Go figure.

MJWare · Nov 12, 2009

I think you get the money back when you file your taxes, if you don't owe any taxes.

Also, I think there are ways around this, like setting up a corporation and having the payments made to it. Of course if you are making this much money you've probably got a guy (or gal) to do your taxes anyway.

abctriplets · Nov 12, 2009

sissybaby said:
I am so glad that this thread was started, because a question regarding royalties and advances has been in the back of my mind, but I wasn't sure where to post it.

Does anyone know how an advance or royalties would affect someone who is either drawing disability payments or social security retirement pay?

I would imagine that if a higher income means you no longer qualify for assistance, it would mean that you would stop getting it for as long as your income level is such that you can technically get by without the assistance. So probably that year you got your advance, you might lose your assistance income, but could probably reapply the following year. The main problem, which would suck, is if you had a situation where you had an income just low enough to qualify for $8k in annual assistance. Then you get your big $5k advance, which would knock you off the program that year. So, in finally getting to be a writer, you lose $3k.

Granted, this is how my head understands things. I'm not sure if this is how it works in the real world, but my family is getting help for food, health insurance, and student loans. All of which is income dependent, and checked annually.

Hedgetrimmer · Nov 12, 2009

What kind of help is there for student loans? I have a ton!

MsJudy · Nov 12, 2009

Back to the original conversation...

One of the things to keep in mind is the current banking/business situation. In other words, credit sucks. No one can get it. And that's how publishing works!

Think of all the money the publisher has to put up front to produce a book. The advance is really only a small fraction of that investment. In the past, they could do a lot of that on credit, pay it back when the book is a success, but that kind of funding has dried up. So essentially the only way they can afford to produce MY book today is if the person published before me sold really well.

Talk about out of my control...

So let's say the last MG novel they sold made $100,000 in profits that they are looking to reinvest. They have a choice: pay one author a $100,000 advance, or pay 10 authors a $10,000 advance each. From my perspective, as a debut author, the odds are better if they pick the second option. They're much more likely to take a chance on my quirky little book that doesn't have "Blockbuster!" written all over it.

20 authors at $5,000 each, and my odds get even better.

So for those of us trying to break in to the field, small advances may be the very best thing.

Hedgetrimmer · Nov 12, 2009

JudScotKev said:
So for those of us trying to break in to the field, small advances may be the very best thing.

Agreed.

I recently submitted a picture book to Charlesbridge Press. As an independent publisher, their advances are small across the board. But here's the thing. I just read an article in Publishers Weekly in which an editor said despite the economy, they continue to turn a profit and have done so with increasing regularity over the years. Unlike the major houses, which make attempts at predicting trends and trying to hit a homerun, Charlesbridge has remained true to its editorial vision of primarily publishing picture books, many of which are science/nature related. The editor said nearly all their books are still in print. So rather than swinging for the big hit, they're content getting all their players on base and slowly but surely moving them along for a steady score.

As a result, they've also begun broadening their MG list. However, the editor said they still will not publish YA because they simply don't care to publish the things YA allows, such as profanity, sex, drugs and violence. I looked at several independents before submitting, but this all won me over. They require a 3-month exclusive, and I have no problem granting it. I would love to work with Charlesbridge. They sound like good people.

MJWare · Nov 15, 2009

It's come to my attention that I may have offended someone(s) with what I said in this thread.

Right now I want to apologize to anyone I offended. I certainly didn't mean too.

Everyone here has been very helpful and I wouldn't want to repay the members here by offending them.

Again, sorry if I upset anyone.

Show Me The Money

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Smish

Reads more than she writes.

AlishaS

Is swimming with creativity frogs

MJWare

Kidlit gang, Junior member.

Amarie

carpe libri

BetsyJ

Ellen Jackson, author

MJWare

Kidlit gang, Junior member.

sissybaby

MJWare

Kidlit gang, Junior member.

kellion92

A cat may not look at a king

Smish

Reads more than she writes.

Hedgetrimmer

What happened, just there?

sissybaby

MJWare

Kidlit gang, Junior member.

abctriplets

Hedgetrimmer

What happened, just there?

MsJudy

Hedgetrimmer

What happened, just there?

MJWare

Kidlit gang, Junior member.