What Constitutes YA Fiction?

elf_friend39 said:

I'm trying to decide if my own WIP is a YA. But the lines are so blurry. There are wars and curses and dark magics and battles in which people die and blood is shed. But there is no obsenity or sexual content, so if that's common in YA nowadays then mine is a wierd one. It's clean enough for 9-year-olds, but does that mean it's not YA? I didn't have children in mind when I was writing it, but children could read it w/o getting scarred (hehe).

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Sounds VERY much like YA to me.


There's a GREAT link to an article in this thread that talks about the difference between YA and MG:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125349

I'm referring to THIS part of that article in particular:

VJ: You acquire both middle grade and YA fiction. Aside from the age of the protagonists, what are the main differences you see between middle grade and YA fiction?

SE: In terms of content, middle grade is very innocent compared to YA and getting more innocent every day. We’re told more and more that middle grade is a young category, and that every aspect of the story needs to be appropriate for the youngest piece of the category—meaning eight-year-olds. So right now I think there’s a big jump in terms of content between middle grade, where you can’t even really say “damn” or have interest between the sexes except in a really innocent way, and YA, where you can kind of get away with anything as long as you’re okay with being classified as “fourteen up.” : )

Storywise, too, I think you see a difference between YA, where the characters are old enough to be pretty independent and get into trouble on their own, and middle grade, where kids’ lives are still fairly controlled by their parents—and so you see a lot of fantasy and magical realism. In middle grade, I think a lot of the action tends to come from imagination, whereas in YA, it’s tends to be a little more gritty and realistic.

VJ: Similarly, what are the main differences you see between YA and adult fiction? Are any subjects “off-limits” in YA fiction?

SE: This topic is sort of up for debate, but to me, the difference is tone. YA is very in the moment. If you’re a teenager, you are experiencing being a teenager right then, right there—you are making decisions in real time and still dealing with the consequences. Whereas adult fiction about teenagers tends to be more reflective, more “if I only knew then what I know now.”

In terms of what you can get away with, it’s tough—it’s changing all the time. I think we’re coming out of a strange, conflicting period in YA—on the one hand, we’re being told stores and customers want cleaner stories, and on the other, all the other forms of media, like television and movies and even the internet, are pushing the limits more than ever before. So there’s this weird divide: either you’re totally clean or you’re tackling very mature topics, and we’re calling your book 14 up.

Hope that helps!!!!

Yes, it does help some. Thanks!

You're welcome. Glad I could help (I know that article helped ME tremendously. lol).

I've got a YA novel where the characters are 18-23. Is that even "allowed"? It's very much a YA novel to me, just a sort of post high school one.

Poor college-based books. Why doesn't someone invent a genre for them? I've seen college movies, but they're all absolutely stupid. All the teens do in these movies is party. Seriously now...

Jumpy2:
I've got a YA novel where the characters are 18-23. Is that even "allowed"? It's very much a YA novel to me, just a sort of post high school one.

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Like Sage said, it's a hard sell at the moment, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Eleanor Updale's Montmorency series (which is aimed at the tween audience) has an MC who's a grown-up, as does Catherine Webb's Horatio Lyle series (although Horatio is assisted in his investigations by two teenagers). I'm currently reading Parasite Positive by Scott Westerfeld, which is narrated by a 19 year old college student who hunts vampires.

Personally, I don't see the harm in trying your book on YA agents and adult fiction agents. At the end of the day, the decision of what your book is will be taken by the marketing department of your publisher, so it's more important that you have a well-written book that they think they can sell to someone than it is for it to fall within general definitions.

MM

So maybe I have this all wrong... I'm a "young adult" that writes about happenings in my life. So does this mean that my content is "young adult"? Unless age 20 is not considered to be "young adult"?

Shay:
I'm a "young adult" that writes about happenings in my life. So does this mean that my content is "young adult"? Unless age 20 is not considered to be "young adult"?

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Being a YA author has nothing to do with the age of the writer but with the market you're aiming your book at. If you're writing a book that you want teenagers to read (or which a publisher's marketing department determines is likely to be read by teenagers), then it's a YA book.

If you're writing a book that you want adults to read (or which a publisher's marketing department determines is more likely to be read by adults than by teenagers) then you're writing an adult book.

There are things that you can do to steer your work one way or the other (e.g. age or protagonists, style of writing, nature of the themes etc) but it's ultimately a marketing decision on the part of the publisher.

MM

Thanks Momento Mori. That may have been a dumb question on my part now that I think about it.

Going back to the issue of college aged MCs in YA-- I don't think it's totally out of the question. I read two books recently that have MCs who spend at least part of the novel in college. One was Anatomy of a Boyfriend by Daria Sandowsky (first time novelist!), the other was Naomi and Ely's No Kiss List by Rachel Cohn and David Leviathan. I also remember reading a few books that took place in college and were classified as YA even when I was young like Tell Me If the Lovers Are Losers by Cynthia Voigt (that was pretty early in her career). I'm not saying it's easily marketable but it obviously can be done.

I'm struggling with this issue myself. The book I'm writing right now has two narrators and they are both in college but I still feel like it's a YA book.

Defining YA fiction vs. MG fiction

Young Adult (YA) fiction is written for readers generally between the ages of 13-18 or up to age 21. Though is enjoyed by all ages. Middle Grade (MG) books are for readers ages 8-12. YA stories focus on teen protagonists who search for meaning in their world and seek those who can assist them. During the journey the main character typically makes a change and is better for having done so. MG books tend to focus on the main character's needs and not necessarily on the people around them. The plot and topics of YA stories include themes from any of the adult fiction genres: action, drama, romance, mystery, horror and suspense.

Just Delving into YA

I've never considered writing YA lit, as I've always felt that I deal with themes a bit too dark for the YA crowd. However, it was suggested to me by a highly respectable agent that I consider changing my WIP into YA. I'm now trying to research as much YA as possible to see if this is the right field for me. My WIP deals with homosexuality. Is this appropriate? I need as much advice as possible! Please check me out at See Pam Write, See Pam Run. I've loved reading this forum, so any help would be greatly appreciated!

Issues regarding homosexuality are very common in YA literature and have been for the past 25 years (check out stuff like "Annie on My Mind"). I took a peak at the first entry in your blog and it seems from your references to Goosebumps and Baby Sitters Club that you're confusing YA with Middle Grade literature which is skewed towards 8-12 year olds.

There's a whole thread on LGBT YA here.

Skimming over these, I can definitely see the blurry line between YA and Adult. I'm confused about which of the two mine sits in, as well.

The MC's are 16 and 17, and while I guess there are a few typical high-school/teenager issues going on, it's a paranormal story so the main focus is on the horror/paranormal activities. It gets a little gruesome at times (although I don't feel it's anything I would have blinked twice at as a teen; my parents might have thought differently), and in the sequel there will likely be at least hintings of sex... My word count is also 97k, so that puts it kind of up there over the typical range of what constitutes as a YA novel.

Hmm, I don't know, Ether. Over 80k for YA is a no-no.

I think I approach YA novel writing from a different angle from some earlier contributors. For me, job #1 is to be PUBLISHED and job #2 is to SELL. This is best done not by writing the book I want to write (although I usually end up doing something like it), but by aiming straight down the middle of a market; in this case, YA. Give those flamin' agents and editors what they want, what they know goes down best.

To do this, read ten dozen top selling YA novels, and you will automatically know the parameters: no sex, no gratuitous violence, in fact as little and as sensitive violence as poss, no homosexuality or controversial issues of any kind whatsoever, no little youngsters or adults in main parts, and nothing that smacks of repeating what has gone before. But the main, if not the ONLY thing that matters is: tell a damn good story.

Here in UK, YA means 12-16, so your POV character needs to be 15 or 16.

Dwight said:

Hmm, I don't know, Ether. Over 80k for YA is a no-no.

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I'm in the UK as well and I've seen quite a few YAs, and debut YAs at that, over 80k and even over 100k. If you read the recent wordcount thread in this forum you'll see another UK writer who has been agented with a YA novel that she told them going in would be over 110k and which ended up just short of 120k.

Dwight said:

I think I approach YA novel writing from a different angle from some earlier contributors. For me, job #1 is to be PUBLISHED and job #2 is to SELL. This is best done not by writing the book I want to write (although I usually end up doing something like it), but by aiming straight down the middle of a market; in this case, YA. Give those flamin' agents and editors what they want, what they know goes down best.

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If you can do this, then great. But I've heard more than one agent and publisher say that you should write what YOU want to write, not what you think you ought to write - otherwise the lack of conviction would show a mile off. As for me, I've tried being a hack and failed miserably, so it's write what I'm driven to write as best I can, is rule #1. (I'm not unaware of what goes in YA novels - but it's by writing what I'm compelled to write that I ended up writing YA in the first place.

Dwight said:

To do this, read ten dozen top selling YA novels, and you will automatically know the parameters: no sex, no gratuitous violence, in fact as little and as sensitive violence as poss, no homosexuality or controversial issues of any kind whatsoever, no little youngsters or adults in main parts, and nothing that smacks of repeating what has gone before. But the main, if not the ONLY thing that matters is: tell a damn good story.

Here in UK, YA means 12-16, so your POV character needs to be 15 or 16.

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While I'll agree that the market for older YA is less developed in the UK than it is in the US, it does still exist here. Read for example the works of the following, all UK-based writers published in the UK, who all break one or more of your "rules":

Aidan Chambers (who has been around since the early 1980s)
Julie Burchill (I don't like Sugar Rush much as a novel, but it is a gay-themed YA)
Melvin Burgess
Kevin Brooks
Anne Cassidy (if Looking for JJ doesn't deal with a controversial issue then I don't know what does, though I think she fudges it to some extent)
Patrick Ness
Anna Perera (probably - I've not read Guantanamo Boy yet)
Meg Rosoff
Matt Whyman

I'd certainly like there to be more 14+ YA in the UK, on grounds of vested interest at least (see sig ).

Dwight:
read ten dozen top selling YA novels, and you will automatically know the parameters: no sex, no gratuitous violence, in fact as little and as sensitive violence as poss, no homosexuality or controversial issues of any kind whatsoever, no little youngsters or adults in main parts, and nothing that smacks of repeating what has gone before.

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No.

In addition to the excellent authors listed by eyeblink, I'll addL

- Cassandra Clare (City of Bones, City of Ashes, City of Glass) - central relationship is clouded by the possibility of it being incest and there are openly gay characters;

- Andrea Seigel (Like The Red Panda) - teenage suicide;

- Scott Westerfeld (Specials) - self harm, specifically 'cutting';

- Justine Larbelestier (Magic or Madness, Magic Lessons, Magic's Child) - underage sex and pregnancy

- Julia Bell (Dirty Work) - sex trafficking and forced prostitution of teenagers

- John Boyne (The Boy In The Striped Pyjamas) - 9 year old protagonist and a Nazi death camp;

- Trudi Canavan (The Magician's Guild, The Novice, The High Lord) - homosexual character and teenage pregnancy.

I will agree with you though that what you need in YA is a good story.

MM

You could also add that some of the edgier American YA writers have been published here too:

John Green - Looking for Alaska (though not his later novels)

Laurie Halse Anderson - Speak, Catalyst etc.

Jenny Downham's Before I Die is definitely 13/14+ too - no strong language, but sex and drug use are included

I'll also mention Peadar O Guilin's The Inferior (violence, cannibalism in SF/fantasy context) and Simon Morden's The Lost Art (violence), both published by David Fickling in the UK. (Vested interest alert: I've met Peadar and I know Simon to chat to.)

Also, Margo Lanagan (Australian) - Tender Morsels is published in YA and adult editions and is in UK bookshops now. That's definitely 14+

Oh and how could I forget Mark Haddon's The Strange Case of the Dog in the Night-Time (contains swearing)?

Yay, EB and MM. Your comments are appreciated. What I neglected to put at the start of my bluster was: "If you are an unpublished writer..." which I am. I wonder how many of your choices (my word, you are obviously on top of the YA flux) are first novels?

But seriously, MM, your list could disappear, I think, within the rows of 'safer' novels of the YA section in a bookshop: the books that editors have chosen because their relative harmlessness will safeguard that significant proportion of YA books that are approved of by parents or schoolteachers. They score because of their good story rather than because they have a bit of bite. Don't agents know that this is what editors accept by choice?

I may have a bursting need to write an epic book on the young adult's natural inclination towards shady addictions, but if this was my attempt to break into the published market I would be placing an unnecessary obstacle in my path. I could just as easily come up with a razzling 60k thriller where good schoolkids save the world in a way that makes you sit up.

Having said all that, Eyeblink and MM, I could be blowing my mouth off in a totally unreasonable way. Your profiles don't give much away but you are well up in nos of posts. I'll bet you're both in publishing houses.

I'm not in a publishing house - I'm an adult who fits writing around a dayjob. I'm a published short-fiction writer (for adults) and anthology editor but not a published novelist. After writing several novels in the 1980s and 1990s I've returned to novels in recent years.

To tell a story I've told before on AW, I wrote at age 17 and rewrote at age 24 a novel with two 17-year-old protagonists, sent it off to an agent and had representation for 10 months as a YA writer. I'd assumed that it couldn't have been YA because of sex and swearing issues, but no-one seemed to have an issue with that (this was in the early 90s). The novel never sold and I ceased being agented when my agent left the company, but that was one of two near misses I had in the 90s. That, and the fact that in my forties, I'm frequently drawn to write about characters in their later teens, tells me that YA (older YA) is a natural fit for me.

As for reading, I've been reading YA on and off for years (most of the major crossover examples) and much more systematically in the last couple.

If I could write a fast-moving thriller I would love to - it's just that my brain doesn't work that way. I wrote Partings and Greetings in 50 writing days (47000 words) so I'd say I was compelled to write what is a pretty much character-led contemporary realist YA novel. I live in hope that, assuming all is well with it (it's too early for betas yet) then that compulsion will show in the writing and make it stand out. I hope so, anyway. As this novel concerns a sixth-form bisexual love triangle, you can see why I do have a vested interest in the saleability of YA aimed at 14+ in the UK.

To answer your question, of the names I've listed, the following were edgy debut novels (or debut YA novels in a couple of cases), for readers of 13 or 14 upwards:

Aidan Chambers, Breaktime (sex). (AC's second novel Dance on My Grave, features a strong - and sexual - relationship between two boys. Nothing graphic, but it's clearly there, and it's in a novel published as long ago as 1982)

Julie Burchill, Sugar Rush (lesbian theme - debut YA as she had written adult novels earlier)

Patrick Ness, The Knife of Never Letting Go (violence - including a killing done by the protagonist. The sequel, The Ask and the Answer deals explicitly with methods and morality of warfare, which includes acts of terrorism) (another debut YA from someone who had written two adult novels previously)

Anna Perera, Guantanamo Boy (politics, prison conditions etc)

Meg Rosoff, How I Live Now (sort-of-incestuous attraction, some violence)

John Green, Looking for Alaska (underage drinking and substance abuse, sex - including a hilarious blow job scene - and suicide)

Laurie Halse Anderson, Speak (rape)

Jenny Downham, Before I Die (sex, drug use)

and the novels by Peadar O Guilin and Simon Morden I mentioned and described above.

Come to that, Suzanne Collins's The Hunger Games is hardly sparing in its violence.

I was concentrating on UK writers and/or publication, but I will mention a couple of US debut YA novelists who are active on Absolute Write:

Bethany Griffin, Handcuffs (sexual content and language)

Hannah Moskowitz, Break (self-harming theme, strong language, some sexual references)

Talking about wordcount, the ones above by Ness, O Guilin, Morden and Collins are all over 95k words, with Ness and Morden over 110k.

Dwight:
What I neglected to put at the start of my bluster was: "If you are an unpublished writer..." which I am. I wonder how many of your choices (my word, you are obviously on top of the YA flux) are first novels?

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My list includes the first novels from Cassandra Clare, Justine Larbelestier, Andrea Seigel, John Boyne and Trudi Canavan.

Julia Bell's first novel was about anorexia.

Dwight:
But seriously, MM, your list could disappear, I think, within the rows of 'safer' novels of the YA section in a bookshop: the books that editors have chosen because their relative harmlessness will safeguard that significant proportion of YA books that are approved of by parents or schoolteachers. They score because of their good story rather than because they have a bit of bite. Don't agents know that this is what editors accept by choice?

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Dwight, I don't understand where you're coming from here. A good story is always going to sell, regardless of whether it's cosy or edgy.

Gratuitous subject matter for the sake of it - i.e. titillating sex, excessive violence, rampant drug use that lacks a narrative - is not going to sell, regardless of whether you're trying to publish in the YA or adult market. Even Irvine Welsh's Trainspotting has drug abuse within a good story, (an approach also taken by Melvin Burgess in his YA novel about drug abuse, Junk).

That said, if you read any of the books that I listed, you'll see that there's little within them that would result in their being classified as "safe" or "harmless". With Cassandra Clare, the incest angle is right up there and in your face - Walker thought enough of it to pay for it to go on the 3 for 2 table. Ditto Dirty Work. Ditto John Boyne.

Edgy is big right now in the UK. Agents are looking for it - one example if The Greenhouse Agency - and they're looking for it because they can sell it because editors want it.

If you don't actually have a story, then you're not going to sell. It's as simple as that.

Dwight:
I may have a bursting need to write an epic book on the young adult's natural inclination towards shady addictions, but if this was my attempt to break into the published market I would be placing an unnecessary obstacle in my path. I could just as easily come up with a razzling 60k thriller where good schoolkids save the world in a way that makes you sit up.

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If you've got a story that you want to tell, then why not write it and see? It's easy to sit on the sidelines and bitch that no-one will want/understand/be able to market what you're writing. It's harder to sit down and put that to the test.

Dwight:
Having said all that, Eyeblink and MM, I could be blowing my mouth off in a totally unreasonable way. Your profiles don't give much away but you are well up in nos of posts. I'll bet you're both in publishing houses.

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What does our publishing status and post count have to do with anything?

Where I am in my writing career is displayed in my signature. I'm represented by Rogers, Coleridge and White and am revising my manuscript for an urban fantasy novel with edgy themes. It's my first novel and there's already publisher interest. I have an MA (Distinction) in Creative Writing from City University and have taken courses in writing and publishing. I've been hanging out on AW since 2006 because it's one of the best places to learn about how publishing works and the people here are cool.

MM

Jumpy2 said:

I've got a YA novel where the characters are 18-23. Is that even "allowed"? It's very much a YA novel to me, just a sort of post high school one.

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The book I'm working on right now had the same age-range, and I ended up changing it for the reasons that Sage mentioned. I had an editor looking at it that commented on it an I felt it was better to be safe than sorry--and it didn't change the story at all. Just a bit of the backstory.

Is it risky being edgy?

Many thanks for those two excellent posts, Eyeblink and MM. As a Newbie in AW I feel privileged that you’re evidently taking such care of me.

But have I been touched by your understanding and knowledge of the publishing field? I should certainly hope so. Let me see.

Would you agree with me, EB, that quoting non-debut novels of authors already published is side-stepping my point, which is that an agent will baulk at an edgy novel from a debut writer? A published history makes all the difference as to what you can write about because you’ve already proved your saleability. Julie Burchill is a household name and has the freedom of the issue range. As far as editors are concerned, and agents know this, she can be relied on not to overstep limits.

But whether we focus on edgy novels from pre-published authors or similar from first-time novelists, it would be interesting to see the sales stats. I wonder if there’s anywhere where these are available? Because I’ll bet that controversial subject matter – and it shouldn’t make any difference but I rather think it would, especially same sex relationships – will be met with lower public appeal. I don’t know why it is (except for the same-sex love, where would-be readers could be uncomfortable) but I reckon that readers in general want a ‘safe read’. With a cracking story of course. I think the logic goes something like this.

Read a good novel with all the usual ingredients and no shocks or worries. There will be more of this when this author writes again. Therefore buy more of their books.



Thank you for telling me about your writing history, EB, and the channels you see as your strength. You didn’t tell me though your credentials for writing YA. E.g. how much time you spend with teens and what context you see them in. Your children and their friends?

MM, you’ve provided me with proof in detail, you and EB together, and I can’t argue with either the examples you’ve given or with your writing pedigree. It looks like I’m wrong to believe that with a good story to offer for publication I need to consider avoiding having it put through a notional ‘controversy checklist’ in addition to the other considerations which might block its path.

But hey, MM, hold on. I’m not on the touchlines and I hope I’m not bitching (where did you see that?). I have a completed 67k YA novel currently being professionally critiqued at TLC and also entered for the Chicken House debut author’s competition. The edgiest thing that happens in it is a boy asks a girl what colour her panties are and gets a heavy smack in the face. Oh, and there’s a high body count in the battle at the end. It’s called TEMPLE OF BLOOD, the first of what I’m calling The Alice Trilogy.

Can I ask you a couple of Newbie questions? MM you mention your signature. Does this mean the projects listed at the bottom of your post? City University: that’s New York, right? And one last thing: I’ve seen the phrase ‘urban fantasy’ a lot, and everyone seems to know what it is, except me. What on earth is it?

I agree with you in something else too: everyone on AW is cool, and it didn’t take me long to find that out. What a nice place to hang out.

Good luck with all your writing projects, both of you.

Dwight