The forum description also says, "fundamental likenesses".

Gehanna said:

How does this relate to religion and fundamental likenesses? I don't know... yet.

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In Judaism, we are required to do that in certain circumstances, many of which include our wives. A husband is required to anticipate when his wife wants...relations...and offer/start things up before she has to ask. It's present elsewhere too. For example, it's a mitzvah to give up your seat for someone older than you (not necessarily old, just older), and the buses in Israel have מִפְּנֵי שֵׂיבָה תָּקוּם displayed, which comes from the possuk:

Leviticus 19:32 said:

מִפְּנֵי שֵׂיבָה תָּקוּם, וְהָדַרְתָּ פְּנֵי זָקֵן; וְיָרֵאתָ מֵּאֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֲנִי הי.​

Thou shalt rise up before the elderly, and honor the face of the old man, and thou shalt fear thy G-d: I am the LORD.

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It is expected that a Jew will hold the door or give up a seat for an elderly person or even someone simply a few years older than himself without being prompted. We are expected to do a lot of things for people without being asked.

semilargeintestine said:

For example, it's a mitzvah to give up your seat for someone older than you (not necessarily old, just older)

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You might want to explain the concept of a mitzvah--I don't think there's a direct synonym in English; it's not just a "good deed."

Good idea. There isn't a direct synonym I don't think.

The simple answer is a mitzvah is a "commandment." That doesn't really get the entire scope of it though.

The Torah teaches us that the purpose of life is to achieve closeness to G-d. This is done through following the 613 mitzvot (plural of mitzvah) found in the Torah, because each mitzvah serves to elevate the soul to a place closer to Him. There are 248 positive mitzvot that serve to strengthen the bond between G-d and man, and there are 365 negative mitzvot that protect man from doing things that break down and weaken the relationship.

The word mitzvah is related to the word tzavta, which means "connection." Thus, each mitzvah serves to strength the connection between us and our Creator.

Gehanna said:

613? That's an interesting number. Is there any significance to that number Semilargeintestine such as being different because it is different?

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There is a significance, but the simple answer is because that's how many there are. The Torah does not say that there are 613, we just counted when we made the list. The Talmud mentions the number, but I can't remember if it's in the Mishnah (Torah) or the Gemara (commentary on Oral Torah).

There are two things mentioned in conjunction with 613. The first is that there are 365 negative commandments (don't do this) corresponding with 365 solar days of the year, and 248 positive commandments (do this) corresponding to the number of bones and significant organs.

The other involves numerology. The word Torah in Hebrew is spelled:

תורה

The letters break down as follows:

ת - 400
ו - 6
ר - 200
ה - 5
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611 mitzvot that Moses was given on Mount Sinai

Add the 2 mitzvot that G-d actually gave the people of Israel Himself, and you get 613.

613 mitzvot = likenesses among Jews who fully comply with them? If yes, then would a non-Jew who is fully compliant with them be considered to have an equal likeness or no?

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I'm not sure what you mean by likeness. By keeping the Torah, a Jew is being "like G-d" in that he is doing what G-d wants him to do. All Jews share a special bond whether they keep the commandments or not. Many of the Jews who experienced miracles in the Six Day War were not religious (it's ironic that the six days of the most open miracles the world has seen since the Exodus is completely ignored and explained away as weird coincidences by most of the world--if you're interested in the types of miracles that occurred, PM me because there are a lot, and they are amazing).

A non-Jew that is fully compliant with the 613 mitzvot would not be doing G-d's will. There are only 7 mitzvot that are required for non-Jews (which actually breaks down to about 50 as a few of them are general mitzvot like do not practice sexual devience). A non-Jew is free to take on more mitzvot if she wants, which will certainly increase her merit and make her a more righteous person; however, there are certain mitzvot that a non-Jew is forbidden from doing, as they are only for the Jews. An example of this would be keeping the Sabbath. Non-Jews can go to synagogue and such, but they are forbidden from completely observing the Sabbath unless they are in the process of converting.

G-d rested on the seventh day, but He only instructed the Jews to do that as well, and so only the Jews are to observe it.

Believe it or not, I am not attempting to start a Holy War. At least not here on the AW forums that is.

Gehanna

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Maybe it should say Gehanna instead of Iran?

It was a joke based on your comment about starting a Holy War.

Of all people on this forum, I feel like you're probably the one who would be least likely to start a Holy War.

Ruv, not trying to start a holy war.

While my initial reaction was to laugh (out loud, mind you), the implication is insulting.

Thanks though.

My point is a humanistic one: even the humble chicken has a survival story to crow about, but there's a certain comic vanity in doing so.

Glad it got a laugh.

Gehanna said:

Why does humanity tend to promote ideas that focus on our differences? Religious tolerance would be an example of what I mean.

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Where attempts are made to heal the illnesses of Peace, there are other alternatives. One alternative I would like to suggest is shining more light on our likenesses.

Gehanna

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I understand where you're coming from, Gehanna, but at the same time I have trouble with this. I was raised in a religion where if you were not "One of us," you were going to be punished for eternity. In the context of our religion, "One of us" meant being one of our particular sect of the said religion.

Your idea, I think, is outstanding. But carrying it out likely will be a hard sell for a lot of good members of differing religions, especially for those who follow what some people refer to as "Exclusivist" religions: that is, where you must be part of that religion to be right.

I think the honest truth is that until certain people accept that others are different from them and that that's okay, there will be no peace. As long as there are people who try to force their viewpoints on other people, there will be a backlash and there will be arguments and fighting. People have fought wars over religious views and freedom of thought. However, I do not believe that this is because we're focusing so much on our differences, as it is because we're trying to make people seem just like us.

My suggestion is that we try to work not on one point or the other, but as best we can on both. Tolerating our differences AND finding similarities with each other, I believe, will work far better than concentrating on one of the two points. This would provide, I think, a more balanced and whole view of the people who live around us, because it will focus on differences and similarities.

In other words, to understand our neighbors completely and accept that they will not always be just like us is, in my opinion, the only way we'll really gain any real peace.

And if you think about it, our world has made some progress in this. I've not heard of, for instance, any news stories about the Pope calling for all good Christians to go fight in a war against unholy marauding members of other religions... at least not in the last couple hundred years. So we've made some progress, at the very least.

Anyway, this is only my opinion. I hope it adds something good to the discussion, and maybe gives some food for thought.


Blessed Be.

Sean D. Schaffer said:

And if you think about it, our world has made some progress in this. I've not heard of, for instance, any news stories about the Pope calling for all good Christians to go fight in a war against unholy marauding members of other religions... at least not in the last couple hundred years. So we've made some progress, at the very least.

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That's because they're trying to change the image of the last 2000 years. Rather than torture and kill Jews and Muslims who don't convert, they tell you you're going to burn in hell for eternity for being a heathen pagan.

semilargeintestine said:

That's because they're trying to change the image of the last 2000 years. Rather than torture and kill Jews and Muslims who don't convert, they tell you you're going to burn in hell for eternity for being a heathen pagan.

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Indeed, that's a lot better than torturing and killing them, wouldn't you say?

Besides, SLI, there's this little issue of the peoples of the Land of Canaan that needs to be dealt with now. You know, where your God commanded Moses and the Children of Israel to "Utterly destroy" every man, woman, and child in the land of Canaan? A commandment that He later gave to Joshua and was followed through in the book that bears his name? I'm not saying that what the Pope did a long time ago was right, or that the general attitude in some Christian churches is right (I've gone to many different kinds of churches; not all Christians are exlusivists, and not all Christians believe that everyone else is going to Hell in a handbasket), but what I am saying is that they're not the only people in the world that has changed their image. Yours has too. I suggest you remember that before you charge the Christians with the evils that you mentioned. Your people are guilty of it too, if the Bible is to be believed.

Sean D. Schaffer said:

Indeed, that's a lot better than torturing and killing them, wouldn't you say?

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Not much. That's like saying it's better to have stage I cancer than stage IV cancer.

Besides, SLI, there's this little issue of the peoples of the Land of Canaan that needs to be dealt with now. You know, where your God commanded Moses and the Children of Israel to "Utterly destroy" every man, woman, and child in the land of Canaan? A commandment that He later gave to Joshua and was followed through in the book that bears his name? I'm not saying that what the Pope did a long time ago was right, or that the general attitude in some Christian churches is right (I've gone to many different kinds of churches; not all Christians are exlusivists, and not all Christians believe that everyone else is going to Hell in a handbasket), but what I am saying is that they're not the only people in the world that has changed their image. Yours has too. I suggest you remember that before you charge the Christians with the evils that you mentioned. Your people are guilty of it too, if the Bible is to be believed.

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There's a big difference between G-d commanding the Jewish people to conquer the Land of Israel and the Pope telling Xtians to go slaughter Jews and Muslims in a land that doesn't belong to them.

First of all, G-d can give any land to whomever He wants. The Canaanites had their chance. There's a reason that G-d chose to use the Jewish people to force them out of the Land of Israel, and it wasn't because of the merit of the Jewish people. In fact, there were several instances where G-d was going to just wipe out the Jewish people because of their sins. He only protected them and helped them win because of the vow He made to the forefathers and because of the wickedness of the Canaanites. In fact, He tells us pretty clearly that it is not because of our merit that we entered Israel.

Devarim 9:5 said:

ה לֹא בְצִדְקָתְךָ, וּבְיֹשֶׁר לְבָבְךָ, אַתָּה בָא, לָרֶשֶׁת אֶת-אַרְצָם: כִּי בְּרִשְׁעַת הַגּוֹיִם הָאֵלֶּה, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ מוֹרִישָׁם מִפָּנֶיךָ, וּלְמַעַן הָקִים אֶת-הַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר נִשְׁבַּע יְהוָה לַאֲבֹתֶיךָ, לְאַבְרָהָם לְיִצְחָק וּלְיַעֲקֹב.

Not for your righteousness, or for the uprightness of your heart do you go into possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD your G-d does drive them out from before you, and He may establish the word which the LORD swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.​

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I also wanted to add something. I realized after I turned the computer off that you said something about equating all Xtians with the atrocities of the last 2,000 years. I just wanted to clarify. I purposely used the term Xtianity whenever I could, because obviously not all Xtians hated Jews or did anything bad to us; however, I can't think of a major branch of Xtianity that didn't at one time call for the persecution of the Jewish people.

SLI,


I've been gone for quite a few days, because I needed some time after I wrote my post to collect my thoughts. I realized almost as soon as I wrote my post how it must have sounded to you, and I'll be honest with you: I had no intention of sounding the way I did.

My point was not that it was wrong of your people to conquer the Land of Canaan. My point was that indicting today's Christians for what their ancestors did hundreds or even thousands of years ago is the real problem. I'm guilty of the same thing myself, as when I started studying my present religion, I attacked all of Christianity for what members of my religion call "The Burning Times," better known as the Inquisition. I had no right to blame today's Christians for what their ancestors did long ago, and I don't believe it's right for anyone to do that. That was my point.

I never intended to attack either your God, any of your Prophets (Moses, specifically), your people, or yourself. My only intent in my post was to point out what I see as a fatal flaw in getting on any other religion's case for its past actions. My entire purpose with my post was to plant a seed in people's minds that this accusation of members of other faiths for what people of those faiths did a long time ago really does not help anything.

Yes, many Christians do try to win others to their faith. And yes, many use scare tactics (I was a Fundamentalist Christian, and I used a few of those nasty tactics myself -- and I might add that I did so out of fear, not out of malice) to get people to follow their path. But what you need to understand is that many of these people see their God as the exact same God that you follow. Many of the Christians that I went to Sunday School with used the same exact reasoning for the Crusades that you did in your previous post for the conquest of the Land of Canaan. My Sunday School teachers, for example, taught me that the Crusades were God's ordained war to rescue the Holy Land from the heathens (namely, in the case of the church I went to, the Muslim population there). There was never any doubt among the Christians I went to church with, that the same God you serve with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, was the same God Who ordained the Crusades in the first place.

Like I said above, I'm as guilty as anyone else of accusing entire religions for the acts of a few of their members. And that's part of the reason I'm writing this post. I wanted you to see only how your argument parallels with a lot of the arguments that other religions use to wage war against your own people. They say that God commanded it. Whether He did or not is irrelevant to the fact that many of those people believe they are serving God with all their hearts.

And one more thing: I apologize if I sounded in any way, shape, or form, anti-Semitic. I did not intend my post that way, but I can see how it could have come across as such. I do not hate any ethnicity, SLI. What I hate is the attitude that so many peoples have that tells them it's okay for them to accuse others, but that it's not okay for anyone else to accuse them. I saw your first response to me as such an attitude, and I also am fully aware that I'm as guilty of that attitude as anyone else is. I hope you understand I had absolutely no ill desire for you or anyone; I just was trying to put forth a simple point, and as usual, I didn't do a very good job of it.

Blessed Be.


EDIT:

And also, after this post I'm calling it quits for both this discussion and this forum. I just need to get on with my life, and I feel like the stress I go through going to this forum will eventually kill me someday. So it's best, I think, for me to leave. I'll see you around, hopefully, and I wish you all the best.

I didn't think you were anti-Semitic, and I didn't blame today's Xtians. I said very clearly that my beef is with Xtianity as a religion, not its individual followers. Obviously, some of them are bad people (as with any group), but that doesn't mean they all are.

Back to "mitzvah" -- one of my co-workers told me the word means both a command and a blessing (if followed in the correct spirit). Is this true?

I think that differences don't much matter until there's inequity in privilege, then they matter enormously. Those with greater privilege use the differences to justify preserving their privilege. This persuades those with too little privilege to see the difference as the problem.

While there's strong inequity of privilege it's hard to do much with similarity. People want to and they try, but ultimately the inequity gets in the way of cooperation, and the differences become the symbol of that.

I'm unfailingly polite to evangelists who knock on my door. I see them as members of my community and I think I owe them courtesy and goodwill. But I'm tired of receiving looks of suspicion and hate from evangelical visitors when I tell them I'm an atheist. Apparently I can see more similarity between us than they can. And my sense of similarity does me no good at all because they've decided that I don't have the right to peaceful enjoyment of my own home on weekends. They're exercising a visitor's privilege and imposing on my hospitality, while not respecting my privileges of privacy and freedom of reverence.

Deb Kinnard said:

Back to "mitzvah" -- one of my co-workers told me the word means both a command and a blessing (if followed in the correct spirit). Is this true?

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That's not what it means, but that's a nice way to look at it. A mitzvah is something we get to do in order to be closer to G-d. We may have to do it, but we would be sad if we couldn't. That is why every morning, Jewish men and women thank G-d for making them Jews so that we can have 613 mitzvos instead of 7.