Historical Swimming (very late 17th Century)

AZ_Dawn · Jul 5, 2009

In a time when most sailors don't know how to swim, I have two pirates that do. I can maybe justify it for the ex-fisherman; if you drop a net off the pier, you darn well better be able to retrieve it before you get in trouble! The ex-farmhand/poacher might be a problem. Swimming comes in handy for poaching (if there's a river between you and the gamekeeper), but it's not exactly an agricultural skill. How or why would he learn how to swim? From what I've found on the web, recreational swimming wasn't popular in my period. He grew up in rural England, if that helps.

Thanks!

P.S. If I'm mistaken about the ex-fisherman, feel free to correct me.

pdr · Jul 5, 2009

Actually...

even when I was a little tacker the North Sea fishermen in their coastal fishing smacks did not swim. I was told they preferred to drown straight away rather than die slowly of hypothermia.

Poacher? Hmm. Tricky. Can he just be a child who grew up near a river? So he learned because he used to play and splash about there?

AZ_Dawn · Jul 5, 2009

pdr said:
even when I was a little tacker the North Sea fishermen in their coastal fishing smacks did not swim. I was told they preferred to drown straight away rather than die slowly of hypothermia.

Good point, though I've heard the chief reason for non-swimming seafarers was that if the ship sank in the middle of the ocean that it wouldn't do much good. To his credit, the ex-fisherman was born and raised in the Caribbean, so hypothermia isn't as big a worry. Still, it's not vital plotwise for him to know how to swim, so I'm open to change on that.

Poacher? Hmm. Tricky. Can he just be a child who grew up near a river? So he learned because he used to play and splash about there?

I thought about that and am leaning towards it; I just wondered if that was a sufficient justification.

c.e.lawson · Jul 5, 2009

My four year old nephew is teaching himself to swim by imitating his dog's "dog paddle". I saw him do it yesterday while explaining to us that "My dog swims like this.". Perhaps your man had a hunting dog when he was a little boy and imitated the animal swimming - like when his dog retrieved a duck in the pond or something.

Puma · Jul 6, 2009

I grew up in the country with a creek on our property. From the time I was very little (3 probably), I was in the creek as much as I could be - wading, falling in "accidentally", pushing myself along through the water by using my hands on the flat stone bottom, sticking my head in and opening my eyes to see what things looked like, etc. That's the way I learned to swim. I think there's something of a natural human fascination with the different feel of water and buoyancy. If a child has a creek or pond available and is not reined in by adult prohibitions, I think swimming is something that almost comes naturally. Puma

cooeedownunder · Jul 6, 2009

Oh, I don't know.

I live in a place where swimming is taught like a second language, and has been for many years, and it doen't necessarily come naturally to all of us. I only learnt enough to save myself, which might not work in the reality of the ocean, one which I have almost drown at our most famous Bondi Beach once as a ten year old, but my husband and daughter yes. I have spent every single summer in the surf and swimming for fourty odd years, but I don't think it came naturally, maybe almost, like puma said, but it takes a great deal of strenght to be able to swim in ocean currents, which most certaintly I would drown in, unless I coud float my way to shore, but my husband maybe would escape.

DMarie84 · Jul 6, 2009

Puma said:
I think swimming is something that almost comes naturally. Puma

LOL, then Mother Nature must have forgotten about me! I'm terrified by the water, at least water where I can't feel the bottom. And I've no desire to learn to swim either.

AZ_Dawn, I just learned something new today--I didn't realize that most sailors didn't know how to swim. I find that fascinating!

Suse · Jul 6, 2009

It seems plausible that folks living by the coast in a hot climate might learn to swim. I'm not so familiar with your period, but Homer and the Gilgamesh refer to swimming as a sport. Communities dependent on fishing and sea trade have water in their blood (sorry, I can't think of another way to put that).

Doogs · Jul 6, 2009

Suse said:
It seems plausible that folks living by the coast in a hot climate might learn to swim. I'm not so familiar with your period, but Homer and the Gilgamesh refer to swimming as a sport. Communities dependent on fishing and sea trade have water in their blood (sorry, I can't think of another way to put that).

That sounds about right. The Romans were recreational swimmers, too, and there are accounts of some of Hannibal's troops (Spanish, Balearic, and Numidian) swimming across rivers. But then the Med is a lot more amenable to swimming than the North Sea or the English Channel.

As for kids and water, I don't know if it's a given that swimming comes naturally, but that's not to say it doesn't, either. Just depends on the kid, disposition, etc.

Another thought - what about having these two pirates pick up swimming in some warm water port of call?

Ariella · Jul 6, 2009

Even when the skill wasn't common, there were always a few people in England who swam for pleasure. There's even a whole book on the subject. Check out Nicholas Orme's Early British Swimming, 55 BC - AD 1719, which someone has reviewed here.

I think part of the problem with swimming was that it was considered a rather vulgar pastime because it involved getting naked in public.

waylander · Jul 6, 2009

He comes from the Lake District?

AZ_Dawn · Jul 6, 2009

Thanks, guys! I didn't realize self-teaching was an option.

cooeedownunder said:
...it takes a great deal of strenght to be able to swim in ocean currents...

I'll have to keep that in in mind if I have one of them try to swim from ship to shore.

Ariella said:
I think part of the problem with swimming was that it was considered a rather vulgar pastime because it involved getting naked in public.

Guess they didn't learn it from their mothers, then.

waylander said:
He comes from the Lake District?

Did they have regular farming and nice rabbit-poaching grounds back then?

waylander · Jul 7, 2009

AZ_Dawn said:
Did they have regular farming and nice rabbit-poaching grounds back then?

Farming certainly - mostly hill sheep farming.
Wherever there were rabbits there were people trying to catch them for a cheap meal

AZ_Dawn · Jul 8, 2009

waylander said:
Farming certainly - mostly hill sheep farming.

Not exactly the type of farming I was looking for. Then again, it's something to think about.

OpheliaRevived · Jul 14, 2009

I'm with PDR. The ability to swim (or not) could just be a unique part of this character's personal history. Maybe his family had a lake on their land, or a river, etc....

Raspberry · Jul 20, 2009

Late 17th century suggests that he wouldn't know how to swim unless being taught.

It was seen as remarkable that the Lainnearachd, the Scottish Highlander fighting arts, included swimming as a lesson. At the battle of Killiecrankie, many of the common soldiers drowned even though Scotland is a land of water, so one would assume many would have had opportunity.

That's my twopence worth.

Now, can I see Ophelia flatter?

RichardB · Jul 20, 2009

I, too, have a sailor with certain exceptional skills including swimming - a IX century Venetian named Rustico. I never spelled out the stroke in my book, but I always imagined it to be some form of breaststroke.

My logic: Intuitively, true swimming must start with a face-down float of some kind. A dogpaddle doesn't use the arms very well, and the freestyle aka Australian crawl (yes, Sharon!) seems too technical for old-time swimming. Butterfly and 'dolphining' are right out.

Breaststroke has the advantage of being doable with the head completely above water, which it seems to me would be the most likely posture for a man in salt water with no goggles. Also it is one of the few strokes that works both on the surface and submerged. I'd believe either a flutter-kick or frog-kick to be historically possible.

On the other side of the world, I remember reading that one of the samurai arts was learning to swim in armor (suijutsu). But I would not assume that any of the techniques carry over to Europe.

AZ_Dawn · Jul 20, 2009

Thanks, guys!

RichardB said:
My logic: Intuitively, true swimming must start with a face-down float of some kind. A dogpaddle doesn't use the arms very well, and the freestyle aka Australian crawl (yes, Sharon!) seems too technical for old-time swimming. Butterfly and 'dolphining' are right out.

Breaststroke has the advantage of being doable with the head completely above water, which it seems to me would be the most likely posture for a man in salt water with no goggles. Also it is one of the few strokes that works both on the surface and submerged. I'd believe either a flutter-kick or frog-kick to be historically possible.

I wasn't thinking in terms of exact technique, but it's good to know. No ship-to-shore dog-paddling for them! :e2drown:

On the other side of the world, I remember reading that one of the samurai arts was learning to swim in armor (suijutsu). But I would not assume that any of the techniques carry over to Europe.

Of course not! It's pirates vs. ninjas, not samurai! :e2fight:

pdr · Jul 21, 2009

Actually...

it would have been sidestroke I think, Richard. It was the most used stroke until ? Not sure of when it went out of fashion but I do know that I watched old people swim that way when I was a little tacker.

It looked like breast stroke but performed as you lay on one side of your body, not flat on your front. Again it kept your head out of the water.

Doogs · Jul 21, 2009

There's an interesting article here: http://swimsallyswim.blogspot.com/2009/03/swimming-through-ages.html

It's a bit jumbled, and I'd recommend confirming with other sources, but it has some good tidbits:

In the Middle Ages swimming became unpopular in Europe because people believed water helped spread plague and other common epidemics. When people did swim, they preferred a form of breaststroke that kept their faces out of the water. Not untilo the second half of the nineteenth century was prejudice against swimming largely overcome.

In 16th and 17th century Europe, the breaststroke was performed with the head held high and completely out of the water. Instead of using a frog kick, propulsion was applied with the insteps and not the soles of the feet.

The Greeks did not include swimming in the ancient Olympic Games, but practiced the sport, often building swimming pools as part of their baths. One common insult in Greece was to say about somebody that he/she neither knew how to run nor swim. Swimming is an integral part of the tale of Hero and Leander and of the 7th-century poet Arion.

The Etruscans at Tarquinia (Italy) show pictures of swimmers in 600 BC, and tombs in Greece depict swimmers 500 BC. The Greek Scyllis was taken prisoner on a ship of the Persian king Xerxes I in 480 BC. After learning about an impending attack on the Greek Navy, he stole a knife and jumped overboard. During the night and using a snorkel made from reed; he swam back to the ships and cut them loose. It was also said that the ability to swim saved the Greeks at the Battle of Salamis, while the Persians all drowned when their ships were destroyed.

In Ancient Rome, swimming was considered a healthy practice, and swimming races were held in the Tiber River. Julius Caesar himself was known to be a good swimmer.

Middle Ages to 1800: Swimming was initially one of the seven agilities of knights during the Middle Ages, including swimming with armour[citation needed]. However, as swimming was done in a state of undress, it became less popular as society became more conservative in the early Modern period. For example, in the 16th century, a German court document in the Vechta prohibited the naked public swimming of children.
Leonardo da Vinci made early sketches of lifebelts.

In 1538 Nicolas Wynman, German professor of languages, wrote the first swimming book Colymbetes. His goal wasn't exercise, but instead it was to reduce the dangers of drowning. Nevertheless, the book contained a very good and methodical approach to learning breaststroke, and includes swimming aids such as air filled cow bladders, reed bundles, or cork belts.

In 1587, Everard Digby[born about 1550 in England] also wrote a swimming book, claiming that humans can swim better than fish. Digby was a Senior Fellow at St. John's College, Cambridge University, interested in the scientific method. His short treatise, De arte natandi, was written in Latin and contained over 40 woodcut illustrations depicting various methods of swimming, including the breaststroke, backstroke and the crawl. Digby regarded the breaststroke as the most useful form of swimming.

RichardB · Jul 21, 2009

Thanks for the research Doogs. Like I said, I guessed and inferred and left it vague... I hope all my historical guesses match the research so well!

Raspberry · Jul 21, 2009

Well researched. It confirms my finding.

Middle Ages to 1800: Swimming was initially one of the seven agilities of knights during the Middle Ages, including swimming with armour[citation needed]. However, as swimming was done in a state of undress, it became less popular as society became more conservative in the early Modern period. For example, in the 16th century, a German court document in the Vechta prohibited the naked public swimming of children.
Leonardo da Vinci made early sketches of lifebelts.

In the Middle Ages swimming became unpopular in Europe because people believed water helped spread plague and other common epidemics. When people did swim, they preferred a form of breaststroke that kept their faces out of the water. Not untilo the second half of the nineteenth century was prejudice against swimming largely overcome.

It's a bit contradiction though, why people wouldn't know how to swim, don't you think? I thought swimming and bathing became unpopular because of diseases early 18th century, so the above would be a myth. ?

Still in the 20th century, there were many people who would not know how to swim.

My comment confirms that swimming was considered an important skill for a warrior, but seemingly not for a sailor or commoner. I can imagine that it was considered unseemly, lol.

AZ_Dawn · Jul 22, 2009

Doogs said:
There's an interesting article here: http://swimsallyswim.blogspot.com/2009/03/swimming-through-ages.html

It's a bit jumbled, and I'd recommend confirming with other sources, but it has some good tidbits:

I think I remember seeing some of those tidbits elsewhere on the web, or at least the ones in the first quote box. It seems odd that people were afraid of water-borne diseases, yet they had books on swimming. :Huh:

Doogs · Jul 22, 2009

AZ_Dawn said:
I think I remember seeing some of those tidbits elsewhere on the web, or at least the ones in the first quote box. It seems odd that people were afraid of water-borne diseases, yet they had books on swimming.

I'm sure there's a lot of nuance being left out. After all, those swimming books date from the beginning of the scientific revolution. I took it as a sign of people questioning the long-held assumptions about water (perhaps as they rediscovered references to swimming for sport and leisure in the ancient world).

Historical Swimming (very late 17th Century)

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