Strunk and White.

justwondering

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Given the pedantic nature of the article (see my previous post; post 8) it amuses me that the author has misused the term 'tautologous'.

The advice "Do not explain too much" may be described as redundant or self-evident but it is not tautologous.

Not being American I have never read Strunk and White but it is apparent from quotes in this thread* that, unlike the pompous ass who wrote the linked article, they at least do understand that the rules of written English are not rigid and inflexible (<-yes I know).

*For example
It is an old observation that the best writers sometimes disregard the rules of rhetoric. When they do so, however, the reader will usually find in the sentence some compensating merit, attained at the cost of the violation. Unless he is certain of doing as well, he will probably do best to follow the rules. After he has learned, by their guidance, to write plain English adequate for everyday uses, let him look, for the secrets of style, to the study of the masters of literature.
 
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Dawnstorm

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Who is "they" in this sentence?

A complex agglomarate of Strunk, White and publishers.

Strunk is responsible to his students, whom he's written this for. That is: if he uses "active voice" and "passive voice" in the text, it's his responsibility to make sure his students know what he means. He can do that in class. It's a teaching aid after all. (I have no idea how he fared, but I suppose he did well.)

White, whose treatment of the original is what's available to the wider public, is responsible to the wider public, and by extension for the effect the text has on non-student readers. (As far as I know, Strunk and White [as opposed to the original] contains a glossary, which is definitely a step in the right direction.)

Nobody is in anyway responsible for non-systematic misreadings by individual readers.

The people who approached White and suggested the booklet are responsible to check whether its appropriate for the audience they'll market it to. (Practically, they may be responsible to their accountants, but that's not what I mean.) So they share part of White's responsibility in preparing the book for publication.

It's a bit of a mess, trying to assign responsibility.

Writers who are writing for an audience other than the humanities classroom and who rely on Strunk and White as the source of all knowledge are somewhat naive.

Yup.

Oh please, you get five native speakers of English trained as linguists with at least ten years difference in the eras in which they earned their doctorates, you'll have at least three labeling systems, and 7 different interpretations of just about any statement.

I know. I really shouldn't have said "correctly", should I? I mean, I've tried to explain above why I think that Strunk's not ignorant about the passive voice, despite what Pullum says, and my line of argument is "theoretical differences/terminological similarities".

Still, because that's the way it is, definitions are important. You should have them, and you should stick to them. All else hinders communication. (If you have troubles sticking to them, because the subject matter's more complex than the theory, be honest and say so.)

James D. MacDonald said:
Yeah, pretty much. They (S&W) could have said "cart" and "horse." If it pleases you, substitute the word "cart" wherever you see "passive" and "horse" wherever you see "active" and all will be well.

I'd much prefer a horse/cart metaphor, as nobody's going to look for definitions elsewhere and be confused when they don't apply. Plus, you don't stigmatise existing grammatical structures.

Pullum seems to be arguing for correctness of terminology. Good for him. I'll continue to recommend Strunk & White to newbies who have never run into the concept of style at all. It's short.

I've heard linguists recommend it. Steven Pinker? When all's said and done, it's not that important. But it is a book that sends me into rants. I don't like it, and I will continue to recommend active avoidance until you're secure enough not to be phased by the authoritative tone. It's shortness is not a strength - it's a mercy.

(I must confess here that I have no idea what PAP, DMP, NSP, and NSI refer to. I'm probably the happier for it.)

My post originally would have included the recommendation to ignore the abbreviations, but I deleted the line before submitting. If you're really curious you can look them up in the link. They may not be sufficiently explained there, as the target audience (of the first link) is experts. No, they're not essential to know. They stand in for common boogaboos.

ETA: You're a quicker reader than I am a typer. ;)
 
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I'm beginning to think writers should be given a pen, not advice.

Yep.

They'll have editors. If they can get their point across, and have a story, and incite narrative lust, the spelling and grammar are fixable--or revisable.

There's a tendency for many writers of fiction and poetry, in particular, to engage in a lot of talking about writing, rather than actually applying the seat of the pants to the chair, and writing.
 

kings_falcon

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Also keep in mind that the book is called Elements of Style. It's White's guidelines for some stylistic choices. To quote from Pirates of the Carribean "they're more like guidelines."

Just like any grammer guideline, slavish and blind obedience to the guidelines will create their own problems.

Is it still a must read? Yes.

But you must do what James says - know what the guidelines are, understand them, know when, why you are breaking them and be willing to pay the price for doing so.
 

GD Marks

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Also keep in mind that the book is called Elements of Style.


Oh, yes. Certainly. It's just that it is bandied around as much more than that. It is regarded as more than advice.

And I think Dawnstorm put it well earlier with something like 'it's the authority given to S&W' that is the 'problem'. (Problem used as a shorthand.)

gdm.
 

Shweta

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No, writers shouldn't be getting that advice. Grammarians, perhaps. Linguists, perhaps. Writers? Nope.

For the rest, it's well to remember that language is not mathematics nor is English Latin.

So what about the writers who find that really useful when we're editing? It's not just terminology, it's a set of critical tools for thinking about language; and most linguistics has very little to do with math or latin. Certainly concepts like foregrounding have plenty to do with writing and nothing to do with math; or at least, Le Guin thinks so and points 'em out in her consciousness-raising exercises for writers.

None of it is any use to the writer who's looking for a quick fix, but that doesn't make it useless.

And... linguists can't be writers?
Forget the ones here. Donna Jo Napoli's a highly respected linguist and an award-winning author. And her linguistic sensibility is clear in her books. It supports the story.

Oh and, one of the most successful buffy screenwriters apparently attributed their success to cognitive linguistics. I have that from George Lakoff, so it's short on details, but the screenwriter was one of his students.

:Shrug:
I dislike overgeneralizations, Jim, even from you.
 
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Ruv Draba

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I think I've followed it all!

S&W is right for freshmen but wrong for writers except it's right for freshmen writers as long as it's not pushed by a pedant because it's panned by Pullum, (though Pullum is impertinent and Lisa loves Lanham) but mercifully at least it's not pedagogically prolix.

:hooray:

(Then again, what authority on style ends up being good for writers of any kind when its pushed by pedants?)
 
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Shweta

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S&W is right for freshmen but wrong for writers except it's right for freshmen writers as long as it's not pushed by a pedant because it's panned by Pullum, (though Pullum is impertinent and Lisa loves Lanham) but mercifully at least it's not pedagogically prolix.
:ROFL:
 

V. Greene

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I just found this forum -- yay!

From two pages ago:
Many are useless, like "Omit needless words."
Somewhere or other (my ability to name sources, especially several years later, is dreadful) I picked up "Avoid superfluous prolixity." I've found that while I often write that in response to someone else's fiction, I rarely have to do so twice to the same writer. Though this could bring on the complaint that I'm not following the rules I'm endorsing, self-illustrating sentences can be marvelous tools. Mostly, that one seems to bring on a flinch and an, "Oh, is that what I just did? Sorry!"

I also read a paper for an intro-linguistics class some years ago on the use of passive voice in conversation, and how it was usually an attempt to dodge responsibility. The example was, "You know that thing of gravy you had in the refrigerator? It got dumped." The linguist observed that the signal word that kept this from being utterly abrupt was had. If your character is trying to slither out of something, a passive voice may be just the ticket. If your character is the sort to say, "I just dumped that little thing of gravy all over the inside of your fridge and made the most horrible mess. Where are the paper towels?" she's a remarkably responsible and forthright human being. I might never have noticed the difference, though, if the linguistics paper hadn't sent up the flag.

Is there such a thing as useless information for writers? To me, not studying grammar and language use and wanting to be a professional writer is a bit like trying to be a professional musician without learning your scales and arpeggios until they're innate. Unlike a good many style guides out there, S&W is at least readable foundation work, and it's rare to find a style guide co-written by someone who has also written a book on the level of The Once and Future King -- something students might actually have read and enjoyed. The ability to whallop out pedantic academic prose isn't a qualification for teaching graceful writing, though it can certainly make observations about it.

(This reminds me -- one of the better English teachers I've known likes to tell the story of reading Macbeth with a class of remedial-level high school students in a very rural area. When they were done, one young man in the back raised his hand and asked, "That ol' boy write anything else?" They did another half-dozen Shakespeare plays that year. Never underestimate the power of "And what else did he write?" I've found several previously-indifferent writers whose ears go all to points when I tell them that the second author is that same E. B. White.)

And now, having said that, I need to go read three or four more of the tantalizing links above. I'm willing to agree that S&W is not the be-all and end-all of good writing, but it makes an awfully nice first step on the long path, and it seems to be palatable for the fifteen-to-twentysomething set.

ETA: and Charlotte's Web. Gee, do I run in the fantasy circles?

ETA2:
"Write with nouns and verbs, not with adjectives and adverbs," they insist. (The motivation of this mysterious decree remains unclear to me.)
Perhaps a century ago this was different, but now this "mysterious decree" makes the difference between elegantly-written fiction and pulp fiction. If you are trying to write pulp, the surest way is to drop at least one -ly ending into each paragraph and use lots of lurid, eldritch adjectives. Pulp, you see, paid by the word count back in the day. I'm no fan of utterly banning entire parts of speech, and that shows in this post, but too many -ly's, especially in the hands of a writer ignoring sentence rhythm, start to make inadvertant and stilted rhyming poetry which gets on the readers' nerves.
 
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Dawnstorm

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From two pages ago: Somewhere or other (my ability to name sources, especially several years later, is dreadful) I picked up "Avoid superfluous prolixity." I've found that while I often write that in response to someone else's fiction, I rarely have to do so twice to the same writer. Though this could bring on the complaint that I'm not following the rules I'm endorsing, self-illustrating sentences can be marvelous tools. Mostly, that one seems to bring on a flinch and an, "Oh, is that what I just did? Sorry!"

Well, this shows exactly why I don't like EoS. See, to me "Avoid Superfluous Prolixity" is not self-illustrating; or if it is, it's not equivalent to "omit needless words." There are no needless words in "Avoid superfluous prolixity". All three words perform as they should.

The common "rule" you're demonstrating is KISS ("Keep it simple, stupid"); I'm not sure if it's in EoS at all. It might be, or it could be constructed from various of their rules. Who knows?

The rules are concise, but they're not clear. Why did you respond to "Omit needless words," with "Avoid Superfluous Prolixity," in the first place?

I also read a paper for an intro-linguistics class some years ago on the use of passive voice in conversation, and how it was usually an attempt to dodge responsibility. The example was, "You know that thing of gravy you had in the refrigerator? It got dumped." The linguist observed that the signal word that kept this from being utterly abrupt was had. If your character is trying to slither out of something, a passive voice may be just the ticket.

That is a very interesting example. Note the "got-passive". The "was-passive" wouldn't work nearly as well:
You know that thing of gravy you had in the refrigerator? It was dumped.
See how the "got", here carries a note of "accidently" that the "was" would lack?

A couple of notes:

1. I'd like to draw attention to "in conversation". Passive voice is much rarer in speech than in writing. (I've seen statistics on that somewhere, but I'm too lazy to go look for it now. I think I could be taking them from the Longman Grammar of Written and Spoken English, but I'm not sure. I don't own that book, so I can't check.

What this means is that passive voice usage might have different implications in writing and speaking. You'd certainly need to approach it differently.

2. I'm wary about the "usually".

Thanks for that example, though. It's great!

If your character is the sort to say, "I just dumped that little thing of gravy all over the inside of your fridge and made the most horrible mess. Where are the paper towels?" she's a remarkably responsible and forthright human being. I might never have noticed the difference, though, if the linguistics paper hadn't sent up the flag.

The signal value of "had" arises from tense, not voice. "...you had..." - "Wait, I don't have it anymore?" See:
You know that thing of gravy you had in the refrigerator? I accidently dumped it. Sorry. Where are the paper towels?
Introducing things you're going to talk about is generally not a bad idea. It's especially useful to do this, if what you're going to say about it is unpleasant. The effect of the passive voice ("got dumped") is negligible, really, in that context.

Or a bit more dodgy, but still in the active voice?
A: You know that thing of gravy you had in the refrigerator? Someone dumped it.

B: I wonder who.

C: Gravy-dumping refrigerator gnomes?
Is there such a thing as useless information for writers? To me, not studying grammar and language use and wanting to be a professional writer is a bit like trying to be a professional musician without learning your scales and arpeggios until they're innate.

A scale is a scale. An arpeggio is an arpeggio. You can practise these things. But neither Strunk nor White are precise enough to allow that sort of practise. You need to transform these general statements into practical exercises. Something to do, rather than something to pay lipservice to.

This is where Strunk & White provide little to no help. It's easier to do this if you are already a good writer, or if you're a new writer with too much confidence (these rules mean whatever you want them to; they're not specific enough to contradict you much). But a new writer with little confidence will have more problems with the booklet. And - here's why the book makes me angry - they might think there's something wrong them rather than with the booklet.

Unlike a good many style guides out there, S&W is at least readable foundation work, and it's rare to find a style guide...

It's readable. I'm not so sure about "foundation work". I have a hunch that the "foundation work" is what the reader has to bring to the text rather than take away from it. Again, good in the class room, out of place elsewhere.

...co-written by someone who has also written a book on the level of The Once and Future King -- something students might actually have read and enjoyed. The ability to whallop out pedantic academic prose isn't a qualification for teaching graceful writing, though it can certainly make observations about it.

Conversly, the ability to write well does not automatically confer the ability to write coherently about writing well. I read and enjoyed Charlotte's Web; that doesn't mean I buy White's articles in EoS. If you're going to argue authority, argue with Strunk. He was at least a teacher, meaning he should have had pedagoical skill. The trouble with that argument is that the orignal EoS (and the White-less version is, in my opinion, a better book) is not supposed to be a standalone.

ETA2: Perhaps a century ago this was different, but now this "mysterious decree" makes the difference between elegantly-written fiction and pulp fiction. If you are trying to write pulp, the surest way is to drop at least one -ly ending into each paragraph and use lots of lurid, eldritch adjectives. Pulp, you see, paid by the word count back in the day. I'm no fan of utterly banning entire parts of speech, and that shows in this post, but too many -ly's, especially in the hands of a writer ignoring sentence rhythm, start to make inadvertant and stilted rhyming poetry which gets on the readers' nerves.

Given that the only example given for this rule is supposed to demonstrate when adjectives are useful, I'm kind of stumped how to turn this into anything useful.

On the one hand, it's a no-brainer. Nouns and verbs are obligatory to sentence creation in English. Adverbs and adjectives are not. So, of course, it's easier to write well without adjectives and adverbs than without verbs or nouns.

The basic question, then, is: How do I tell when an adjective/adverb is "good"? I doubt you'll find much help in S&W.

People say Elements of Style is a slim book about style. I think it's a wordy table of contents to an unwritten book. I also think your ETA2 contains more insight than the entire Elements of Style.
 

Ruv Draba

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Unlike a good many style guides out there, S&W is at least readable foundation work, and it's rare to find a style guide co-written by someone who has also written a book on the level of The Once and Future King -- something students might actually have read and enjoyed.
In fact it's so rare that it's never happened... The White of The Once and Future King is T.H. rather than E.B. :)
 

V. Greene

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In fact it's so rare that it's never happened... The White of The Once and Future King is T.H. rather than E.B. :)

*headdesk* Okay, okay, Charlotte's Web it is. Did I mention a source-attribution problem, or what? :flag: :Shrug:(That would be a simple blushing smiley if I could find one -- doesn't anyone ever get embarrassed around here?) On the bright side, I think more students have read about Wilbur than about Arthur.

And

Why did you respond to "Omit needless words," with "Avoid Superfluous Prolixity," in the first place?

You mean besides my fondness for tangents? There's more than one way to be needless. You can have needlessly many or needlessly large, but either way the words themselves weren't necessary. "Sesquipedalian" is for special occasions, for instance. Funny thing, though -- the same young writers who put way too many words into an essay, thinking the professor will grade by weight, will also put far too few into fiction thinking everyone else can see what they can. They seem to feel that the number of syllables will make up for the want of setting. The reader ends up with the feeling of floating in an empty space with an odd cast of verbose people. (Often as not, these verbose people are gifted with the ability to see their own facial expressions. What style manual can I recommend for POV problems?)

But that's getting far from S&W and well into pedagogical issues. I still think S&W has a place in the world for getting people to think about language use instead of assuming that because they've used words for years they're doing it well. Nipping back to the practice metaphor, sloppy practicing doesn't make a musician. Before they can form an opinion, even a weakly-informed one, they have to have something to form the opinion about. If they've never heard of passive voice before, at least the S&W illustrations give them the thought, "Well, who was doing what?" That's a useful question in all sorts of places where technical passive voice is not, such as those awful sentences where the leading clause aims somewhere other than the subject and makes an alert reader say something like, "Wait -- since when is the president a vacation home?"

I suppose, though, one could always have the students listen to George Carlin more. He's good for language sensitivity without labels.

A grader for a freshman-level class I took (we won't say how long ago) accomplished a lot with the remark, "There's a sentence that makes the grader go to the fridge for another Twinkie." Never mind the question of who bothers to refrigerate Twinkies; if there's some way to sharpen the writer's alertness to that kind of sentence so he doesn't write them, I'm for it. A lot of S&W seems to be aimed at eliminating the "Wait, what?" sentences by any means necessary.
 

Dawnstorm

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Hi, I'm back. (For better or worse.)

You mean besides my fondness for tangents? There's more than one way to be needless. You can have needlessly many or needlessly large, but either way the words themselves weren't necessary. "Sesquipedalian" is for special occasions, for instance.

Yeah, but if you have needlessly many you omit them. If you have needlessly large ones you replace them. Different methods, different effects. (Btw, I did not know the word "sesquipedalian". I looked it up, and chuckled. You do like to illustrate the things you say. ;) )

Going off on tangents, though, seems to be a requirement to profit from Elements. Strunk himself does it. For a while he talks about omitting words, and then he talks about re-writing to end up with fewer words. He doesn't talk about re-writing to end up with shorter words, but who knows what could have happned...

Funny thing, though -- the same young writers who put way too many words into an essay, thinking the professor will grade by weight, will also put far too few into fiction thinking everyone else can see what they can. They seem to feel that the number of syllables will make up for the want of setting. The reader ends up with the feeling of floating in an empty space with an odd cast of verbose people. (Often as not, these verbose people are gifted with the ability to see their own facial expressions. What style manual can I recommend for POV problems?)

This sounds like an interesting observation, but I can't quite follow the train of thought, here. Where'd you get that impression from? Are you a teacher?

But that's getting far from S&W and well into pedagogical issues. I still think S&W has a place in the world for getting people to think about language use instead of assuming that because they've used words for years they're doing it well. Nipping back to the practice metaphor, sloppy practicing doesn't make a musician. Before they can form an opinion, even a weakly-informed one, they have to have something to form the opinion about. If they've never heard of passive voice before, at least the S&W illustrations give them the thought, "Well, who was doing what?" That's a useful question in all sorts of places where technical passive voice is not, such as those awful sentences where the leading clause aims somewhere other than the subject and makes an alert reader say something like, "Wait -- since when is the president a vacation home?"

Well, I hope people don't think I'm against asking "Who is doing what?" It's quite an interesting question to ask. But it does matter how you introduce the problem. You do not use the question to stigmatise a perfectly fine grammatical function. (Vagueness as to agency is a minor point in Elements anyway. For that boogaboo we have George Orwell to thank.)

You lose me with your last sentence.

A grader for a freshman-level class I took (we won't say how long ago) accomplished a lot with the remark, "There's a sentence that makes the grader go to the fridge for another Twinkie." Never mind the question of who bothers to refrigerate Twinkies; if there's some way to sharpen the writer's alertness to that kind of sentence so he doesn't write them, I'm for it. A lot of S&W seems to be aimed at eliminating the "Wait, what?" sentences by any means necessary.

Dare I speculate on said graders figure?

Seriously: Did said grader describe the sentence? Provide evidence that it's not just a personal gripe?

Stigmatising grammatical structures, in my online experience, increases anxiety, not awareness. I mean, how often do you hear "Tell me how to recognise the passive voice so I can avoid it"?

Frankly, that's depressing. That's no attitude for a writer.