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Keyan

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Yet you don't actually have to say that he is exclaiming what he's saying. Just give the dialogue--the exclamation point is self-explanatory, hence the name "exclamation point".

And anyone who uses the tag, "he said affectionately" shouldn't be writing, or at least shouldn't be taken seriously as a writer.

If you have two people talking in a continuous dialogue, you only need one tag at the very beginning to designate who speaks first--once again, self explanatory that if two people are engaged in a continuous conversation and "He" says the first thing, the other person is the one who responds, and so forth, ad infinitum.

This is basic. It shouldn't be up for interpretation. Sure, people write differently and, as I always say, there are no absolutes in writing, but there is little justification for using very many tags other than "said", since well written dialogue, taken in context with the story, quite literally speaks for itself.

I can't be as dogmatic about it as you are, having seen all of the above used successfully. And while it's true that well-written dialogue does speak for itself, using tags can introduce nuances that cannot be managed with the words alone.

I respectfully disagree with your absolute interpretations that someone who writes "he said affectionately" shouldn't be writing. I'm not sure what you mean by "take seriously as a writer." You mean his books shouldn't be read? Only if they're boring. *That* is the cardinal sin of a writer, not using the wrong dialogue tags. IMO.
 

ccv707

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I don't recall ever saying using the wrong dialogue tags is the cardinal sin of writing, which I opine is plagiarism.

However, you don't have to use dialogue tags to introduce nuances. "He said affectionately"...sure, you get the idea that was he said was spoken with an affectionate tone, but what exactly do you see--or in this case hear--as a reader? Affection? Affection is an emotional response to external stimuli, a nuance that we're spoon feeding the reader. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but from what I've been taught throughout my young life, what I've heard from published writers, what I've learned through personal experience, is that one should rarely, if ever, tell an emotion, you show it. Whether you use body language, a nervous tick the character might have, or simply the context of the scene to show it, an emotion should not be told. Saying "He was sad" doesn't show the reader anything. Yes, he is sad, but what is sad? Crying? Head dipped? Large frown? The reader only sees sad, but doesn't see what the character is actually going through in the scene.

When I said one shouldn't be taken seriously as a writer, I meant this person hasn't read enough, written enough, and learned enough, to understand how to show "affection" without having to tell it. Someone who knows what they're doing should be able to write an entire novel-length ms by using said just about 80% of the time, if not more, and should never have to use a single "emotion describing" word, such as sad, upset, depressed, affectionately, and the such.

I'm not saying I'm above anyone--far from it. In fact, I'll readily admit that, in the past, I've done the very thing I'm advising against, using distracting quotes tags in the place of better writing. It's a lesson I've been been fortunate enough to have been taught early, both by myself (through reading and writing) and professionals who have been there and done that.

Yes, such tags have been used in successful books. Some good, some not so good. Mind you, successful does not inherently mean worth your time--Twilight can sell a billion copies, that does not make it a well written piece of art. Unfortunately, and this is true especially for American literature, the culture writers live in too often caters to people like Stephanie Meyer and Clive Cussler, who opt for cheap melodrama, misogyny, and lazy characterization that is easily accessible but without substance (convenient for a popcorn flick society), and, because of this, they sell millions of books.

The way I see it, the writer constantly learns, and never stops learning. As it should be. As people, we should always strive to continuously teach ourselves new ways to expand our understanding of things.
 

wannawrite

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Okay. Thankfully I read this thread last week, just out of curiosity, and knew where to go in search of advice because I just recieved a 'revise and resubmit' from the pub I sent my mss. to. They seem really intrested in my work, but said that i needed to tweak a few things, and one of those things was dialogue tags. They say that I use too many, and that it slows down the story. Not that mine are 'bad' per say, just that I use too many.

Help.

Is there a forum that specifically addresses dialogue tags on this site? I am still sort of new here and find myself bumbling around a lot, in search of things.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 

wannawrite

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Okay. I just read this entire thread through again, hoping for a little illumination, and now my head is really, really pounding, and I am terribly confused. One says one thing, another contradicts, and I am still in the dark. Help. Seriously.
 

Nicholas T

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Every time I see this thread header, I think yer all talking about Edward Said.
Never mind; carry on.

Yep... I just stumbled into this thread fully expecting several pages of heated, personal, tearful debate on the relevance of postcolonial thought.

Trust me, the fate of dialogue tags is far more interesting.

Here's my rule of thumb concerning any writing advice you ever read: ask yourself if it reflects the kind of books you like to read (or better yet, the kind of books you would like to write). To either avoid "said" or use it all the time are equally limiting. Find a balance so it doesn't stick out either way - i.e. too many "saids" or too much said-aversion.

I'm not far along in my current project, but I tend to use dialogue tags sparingly so the reader is never in danger of losing track of who's speaking. Actions and gestures are a good substitute. If your dialogue flows well enough, many readers will skim over everything outside the quotation marks anyway, so don't lay any tripwires and you'll be okay.

And yes, as ccv707 noted, please be aware that a lot of mainstream bestselling authors aren't the kind of authors who place a premium on craft. This isn't to say their books are bad - it just means there's no expectation that anyone reads them for the prose.

("Well, that was easy." I clicked submit reply. "Look, ma! No dialogue tags!")
 

Nicholas T

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Here's something else you can try if you're having trouble with tag glut. One technique I like to use to "draft" a dialogue-heavy scene is to write it like a play.

Character A: "Line of dialogue."

Character B: "My line of dialogue."

[Actions.]

Character A: "Another line of dialogue."

That's the first pass: no tags whatsoever.

On the second pass, consider where you want to highlight changes in mood or imply that a character is thinking of something, but not saying it aloud (and not thinking it aloud to the reader). That's where a subtle gesture might come in, or maybe a tag that indicates mood.

On the third pass, take the names and bracketed reminders away, and read over the dialogue again. There will be some places where it's not immediately obvious who's speaking. That's where you put the dialogue tags that don't really tell you anything, like "said".

Again, this is my method, and I won't even claim it's a particularly good method. But if you start with the dialogue tags out and only put them in at the end, you don't run the risk of having too many. In the process of revision, you're adding them instead of taking them away.
 

Nicholas T

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Also (I should really quit posting here and get back to my own project, shouldn't I?) - there is one circumstance where you want dialogue tags to draw attention to themselves: when they run counter to the reader's expectations of how the line is read.

"I'll kill you!" she shouted.

Boooooring.

"I'll kill you!" she giggled.

Aha, now that's interesting - and it's not redundant, because the tag adds information.

Then again, "giggled" is kind of silly.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Okay. I just read this entire thread through again, hoping for a little illumination, and now my head is really, really pounding, and I am terribly confused. One says one thing, another contradicts, and I am still in the dark. Help. Seriously.

Use "said." Forget all the other silliness.
 

wrinkles

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Okay. I just read this entire thread through again, hoping for a little illumination, and now my head is really, really pounding, and I am terribly confused. One says one thing, another contradicts, and I am still in the dark. Help. Seriously.

Use tags as little as possible. When you have to, use said.
 

wannawrite

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I am so embarrassed. I just took a quick read of my mss, and it is so messed up. I can't believe I actually got a revise and resubmit on it. I WAS feeling all confident about my work. Now I feel like a big old dork. Looking at it critically, with fresh eyes and a straight forward agenda really, really makes the flaws jump out, huh?

Thanks to you all for your advice. I just reviewed the first chapt, and kept referring to this thread for advice. I appreciate all your help.

I am going to go get drunk now. There is a drinking thread around here somewhere, right? :) See you!
 

Vito

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"The word 'said' is still alive and well in the novels of Elmore Leonard and Robert B. Parker", said Vito.
 

Mr. Anonymous

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IMO,

Said often works better than other words, but alternatives and adverbs and such do have their place. Dialogue can often be interpreted in many different ways. In real life, we have body language to complement our dialogue, which aids in our interpretation (though sometimes we get it wrong anyway.) Granted, you can write body language into the narrative, but if you're constantly doing it, it'll get old. Alternatives/dialogue qualifiers are a more concise way of conveying a greater depth of expression. Using them definitely counts as telling, but good writers know how to use both showing and telling.

For example.

"Where's mom? I want mom!"

Original) "Settle down son." James said. "She went out to get some milk."

Now, let's look at that second sentence. Said definitely works, but let's take a look at the difference some alternatives can make.

1) "Settle down son," James barked. "She went out to get some milk."

2) "Settle down son," James said gently. "She went out to get some milk."

The father comes off very differently depending on the alternatives that are used. And while the author might have, say, number 1 in mind when he writes the original sentence, to someone else it might come off as number 2. Point being, just using said can potentially leave the author's real meaning, the character's true feelings/intentions ambiguous.

Granted, there are other ways to show the father's personality. But I don't necessarily think that this sort is "bad" unless it is overused.
 
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blacbird

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Granted, there are other ways to show the father's personality. But I don't necessarily think that this sort is "bad" unless it is overused.

Problem being, especially for inexperienced writers, that it takes very little of this kind of stuff to constitute "overused". If you don't need it at all, or if there's a more effective way to show the same thing, once is overused. Most examples of such that I've seen in manuscripts result from pure laziness on the part of the writer.

caw
 

ccv707

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Problem being, especially for inexperienced writers, that it takes very little of this kind of stuff to constitute "overused". If you don't need it at all, or if there's a more effective way to show the same thing, once is overused. Most examples of such that I've seen in manuscripts result from pure laziness on the part of the writer.

Agreed on every point. Of everything I've said on this thread, this hits the nail square on the head just about perfectly.
 

GD Marks

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Hi.

I just read this thread to 'understand' better. I think I do.

What I on-a-side-note would like clarified:

1) What is a Tom Swiftie?
I just figured this out on another thread!!

Tom Swifties are an excellent writers' party game, of course:

"Thanks for shredding the cheese," Tom said gratefully.

"Someone stole my wheels," Tom said tirelessly.

"Venus de Milo is a beautiful statue," Tom said disarmingly.

from post #20 by David I: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104277&highlight=swiftie


and

2) What is 'purpleness'?
Some clarity over this one would be great - I've seen it in a few places here.
That's all..

gdm.
 
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Newguy1428

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I took a major hit on the "First Chapthers" contest because I never used 'said'. I used replied, rebuked, offered, etc. IMHO, seems to me that said is a last resort, if you can't take the line further, embellish it better with another more descriptive word. I see said as I see be verbs, avoid it. What's the take on this?

Hey Joe, I'm sorry to hear that. I wrote some stories about ten years ago where I had dropped the 'said', the dialogue was going back an forth. My friends told me they couldn't figure out who was talking, I used paragraph breaks, and I thought, "hey, what about putting one character's line in another's mouth?"

Well, it works in comedy, like when somebody steals a punchline. Or, when one character is hogging the scene, just let another have his or her line.
 

StandJustSo

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This is how I handled a dialogue scene in my novel:



You can’t tell anyone, Neil.”

Shock flared down his spine. What is she talking about? “Tell them what? That we’re together?”

She shook her head, hair swinging from the desperate denial. “We’re not together – this was a mistake.” Her chest hitched. “I can’t believe I did this – I’ve ruined things with Garrett.”

“I’ll talk to him,” he stroked her arm, trying to reassure and ease her misgivings, even as his own rose sharply. “he’ll understand.”

“You’re not telling Garrett. You’re not telling anyone."

What’s wrong with her?

He leaned closer. “Heather, I-"

“Don’t!” The word burst from her. “Just – would you just leave?”
 
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