BOOKSURGE.COM

BlondeZilla said:

. . .
Also, since even vanity presses accept maybe 4% of submissions, . . .

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Huh?

PublishAmerica prides itself on its low standards. It will accept pretty much everything up to the daily or weekly quota, apparently. Pay-up-front vanities will publish pretty much anything that the authors pay to have published -- the limiting factor is who has the money.

--Ken

In response to Blondezilla:

I agree Amazon has the right to do business as it wants, as long as they do so legally. That question is yet to be determined. One would also hope for ethically, but that's often a bonus not an expectation. I am not in anyone's backside, but I do understand the point that indpependent presses and susidy publishers are trying to make.

First, you mentioned giving authors a choice, and I totally agree that should be the case. This can't be a logical way to do it however.

The great thing about free enterprise is that the market gets to determine who wins and who loses. In this case, as has been pointed out earlier, Booksurge is not known for quality and have you ever tried to reach Amazon for customer service beyond "click here?"

In a competitve, fair business system, problems like that generally mean you don't do well. At that point the option should be to improve so that customers will want to do business with you, or possibly you'd focus on another niche where you are better. It's business 101.

However, what Amazon is doing is the opposite. Can't get enough business? Hey I know, let's force people to buy from us, good quality, bad quality who cares? We get paid. That doesn't make friends no matter what business you're in.

Secondly, if quality/service continues to be an issue, who do you think feels the brunt of it? Booksellers, authors and possibly the publisher- most of us on this forum and most of the people taking a stand.

If the common reader buys a book that falls apart, do you think most will even know, let alone understand the fact that the printer messed up and think "I better not buy something they print again"?

Of course, not. They'll be disappointed with the purchase and maybe try to return it if it's worth the hassle. A few might wonder how the author (who has the least control) would allow him or herself to be represented by such a product, and the author's rep is now tainted.

Next, do you think this book would get a recommendation to other readers? Probably not, but someone could easily post a review to say the book had an upside down interior, don't bother.

Very very few would know it's really the supplier, Amazon/Booksurge that should be to blame. Amazon/Booksurge continues biz as usual while everyone else, to whom that book is much more important, runs damage control.

If Amazon really wants to help customer service, save fuel and all they say, fine, sounds great, but prove it. Show me statements of how it's going to work. Tell me the numbers before and after to my face, run it for a trial period, ask for our input. I don't think most people would have argued with that.

cpickett said:

In response to Blondezilla:

"... Booksurge is not known for quality and have you ever tried to reach Amazon for customer service beyond "click here?"

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CP, You probably meant to also remind people that if they have a complaint about the quality of a BS product they should contact BS customer service, not Amz. I doubt the average reader has any idea who BS, or LuLu, or iUniverse is. I can tell you that Amazon will not address a BS quality issue with a customer beyond a an apology and an offer of money back. It's even doubtful Amz would steer complaining customers to BS. NI may be wrong, but it would be worth investigating.
As I said earlier, I'm a BS author and my only complaint is the cover quality in that the ink is easily scratched.
C

BlondeZilla said:

Finally, some people who aren't up the proverbial butts of vanity presses and spouting off about how Amazon is taking over the world.
It's not real tough to see that writersweekly is booklocker and starting a smear campaign that can only benefit them is a waste of my inbox space.
It also wasn't tough to see this coming back in 2005 when Amazon bought BookSurge.
Amazon is a publicly traded company and has stockholders to answer to. They have always been a cutting edge time proven company.

Also, since even vanity presses accept maybe 4% of submissions, lets get excited about seeing a lot of crazy idea fresh authors who self publish that we would never get to see before.

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Is this one of George W. Bush's family posting????

The USA economy??? Woo, slow down, and 4% of submissions are accepted by vanity presses???

It's a smear campaign by Angela Hoy and Booklocker???

Hmmm...I'll say no more.

Once upon a time, I bought all of my books from Barnes & Noble and those book clubs, but never Amazon. The customer service was perfect, and they shipped VERY fast to those of us that are military & living overseas.

This is big-brother bullying to me, what Amazon is pulling, and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I may be one person, but if my book can only be available via Amazon by way of now buying into BookSurge--hence, also taking a cut in royalties--but Barnes & Noble isn't pulling this stinky poopoo extortion madness, then they're the company that also deserves my business as a customer. I don't like force-the-hand tactics and feel what Amazon is pulling is rather vulgar.

If I had wanted to do business w/BookSurge, I'd have gone with them in the first place. Now they think to force my hand? Oh, hell no!

BlondeZilla said:

Online book sales are aprox 30% of the market and Amazon has a portion of that.

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Actually, 20% overall. But for many small presses and self-publishing services, online sales are probably well over 50%, maybe closer to 80% or 90%. I don't know what portion of those sales occur on Amazon, but I'll bet it's substantial.

On the other hand, the percentage of Amazon's gross income represented by POD books is probably minute. You can talk all you want about the long tail, but the fact is that Amazon's tail is so long that it can afford to lose the business of publishers that stick with Lightning Source, or that decide to boycott it and find another way. In this fight, Amazon and small publishers are speaking completely different languages.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

Actually, 20% overall. But for many small presses and self-publishing services, online sales are probably well over 50%, maybe closer to 80% or 90%. I don't know what portion of those sales occur on Amazon, but I'll bet it's substantial.

On the other hand, the percentage of Amazon's gross income represented by POD books is probably minute. You can talk all you want about the long tail, but the fact is that Amazon's tail is so long that it can afford to lose the business of publishers that stick with Lightning Source, or that decide to boycott it and find another way. In this fight, Amazon and small publishers are speaking completely different languages.

- Victoria

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I know, I know *deep sigh*.
Some will swear this is brilliant business practice, but not I. This is dirty business. Amazon knows self published authors prefer Amazon and the 'round the world affiliates (Amazon. whatever country you're living in/from), but to force the hand....grrrrr. AND, according to Outskirts Press, there's a significant cut in the royalty--not that I'm so filthy rich from present royalties, that this will put my family out on the street, AND the cover price will increase. As if cover prices of self published books aren't already high enough. Sorry, but I went for the lowest royalty so that my cover price would remain low...and the bloody thing is still pricey.

Booksurge lacks quality. I researched self publishing companies for a long time. In all fairness, BookSurge may have improved their product since I last looked into them, but at the time (I wanna say 2 years ago?), they had commentary such as shoddy (sp?) covers, misprinted pages, double printed pages....you know....the nightmare stuff that makes your book look like it was printed in someone's garage.

Just makes me more determined to hone craft, make book II in my series 'da bomb' (sorry, couldn't resist), and pray to every entity that THIS time I don't get great letters from agents encouraging me to keep writing, but that one says: I'd like to offer you representation.

You'll know it has happened. There'll be a sonic boom. Don't worry. It's just my fat ass fainting dead away.

I have read some posts in this thread that BS has inverted printed pages and duplicated pages. I a copy I have out with BS and it's fine. I did the formatting myself. I wonder if that made any difference?

Has anyone here had any experience with BS screwing up their manuscript?

Also I want to reiterate that Amazon is a business. The fact that they are in business selling books is incidental to the art of writing and producing books. The folks at Amz don't give a fig for your art, its worth to you as the artist, or its worth to your readership. They do care about $$$$ and how to get more of it.
A lot of time and angst has been spent howling about how stupid, mean-spirited and shortsighted Amz is on this matter. But I'm still waiting for someone with knowledge to respond to my post #34 in this thread.
Victoria! Where are you? You always save my bacon. It's getting too crisp in the pan!!! Help!
C

"non-returnable print on demand?" Not all that knowledgeable since a lot of royalty paying POD publishers DO accept returns.

Browndragon said:

"non-returnable print on demand?" Not all that knowledgeable since a lot of royalty paying POD publishers DO accept returns.

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I wouldn't say 'a lot' of royalty paying POD publishers accept returns, IMHO those who have a returns policy are in the vast minority, and often charge this as an 'add-on fee', anything up to $400-$500. I'm trusting to memory, so don't quote me, but I believe Infinity might be one of the few who offer this as standard.

The whole idea of 'print-on-demand' is that the books are available and only printed when a 'firm' request of purchase is made. This in itself grinds against the idea of POD books having returnability, though, I do appreciate it can make the potentially successful books likely to get physical shelf space.

I'm confused. Isn't this the whole point of POD?

POD enthusiasts often talk about a time when a bookstore would simply have a machine to print books on the spot .. you select what book you want and it is printed, instead of the bookstore doing it the 'old fashioned way' and ordering it from the publisher.

Well - that future time is now. That is exactly what Amazon has - a machine to print the POD books for whoever orders them.

Why should this affect POD publishers? Surely it doesn't matter who PUBLISHES the book, as long as they give Amazon permission to press the 'Print' button on their in-house machine .. and supply the file in a way that Amazon can print.

I realise that a POD publisher may prefer to use a different printer instead of the one in house at this bookstore, but why would a bookstore that insists on using a 'Printer A' instead of 'Printer B' kill the micro publisher's business model?

I understand it could kill the profitability of other printers. But surely 'printer' and 'publisher' are different enough for the micro publisher business model to survive?

Mac

It's about quality.
It's about forcing the hand.
I do business with Outskirts Press. BookSurge didn't have a very good reputation for quality.
Now, regardless of my choice, if I want to continue having my book available via Amazon, I'm forced to do business with BookSurge.
If they've cleaned up their act and have become more professional, fine/whatever. But if they're still hit or miss when it comes to quality...I prefer not having my book available on Amazon.

I'm wondering, and pardon me if I do so out loud.

If Amazon says "POD must go through business X", doesn't business X suddenly increase its revenue stream geometrically in the short term, and realise massive economy of scale in the long term?

In other words, won't that business rapidly become and remain the best POD publisher anyway? Prices should drop, quality should improve... granted, it's "should" and not "will", but POD is still a competitive market.

CDarklock said:

I'm wondering, and pardon me if I do so out loud.

If Amazon says "POD must go through business X", doesn't business X suddenly increase its revenue stream geometrically in the short term, and realise massive economy of scale in the long term?

In other words, won't that business rapidly become and remain the best POD publisher anyway? Prices should drop, quality should improve... granted, it's "should" and not "will", but POD is still a competitive market.

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I think this whole issue just shows how the line between POD publisher and printer is becoming so blurred. Are POD's simply glorified printers with a few added publishing bells and whistles? Infinity are a good example of a POD publisher who do their printing in-house, and do not use Lightning Source.

With the roll out of in-store print-on-demand machines in some retail bookstores, the whole manufactoring part of the process is placed firmly at the fingertips of the customer. But this is a little different to what Amazon are trying to do. This is a large conglomerate business telling the companies who trade and place with it to use their supply print network. What it removes from the publisher is the ability to choose and trade on mutually agreed terms. There remains the greater issue of print quality and Booksurges own abilities to take on the extra print demand which Amazon will expect of them.

It seems to me no different than a massive food chain store saying to one particular group of food manufacturers, 'if you don't use our packaging facilities - then we don't sell you product from our stores'.

What Amazon need to do is explain precisely what kind of development and investment they have planned for Booksurge. I don't follow the notion that increased revenue and business is automatically going to lead to better service and quality of product.

BookSurge/Amazon.com copyright infringement

I plead guilty to having been stupid enough to have had BookSurge print the ARCs for my first book. Their shoddy work convinced me to never use them again. But they didn't go away easily. In fact, I have no evidence that they went away at all.

About two years ago I became aware that when customers ordered my book from Amazon, BookSurge printed a copy of the ARC instead of obtaining a copy from a wholesaler or the publisher, and shipped it to the unsuspecting buyer. The customer got an inferior copy of the book and my reputation was harmed.

The matter hasn't been resolved and I have been forced to take them to Federal Court over copyright infringement.

Be very careful, Will Robinson. I stopped doing business with BookSurge after one job (or so I thought), the ARCs for my first book, but two and a half years later find myself suing BookSurge/Amazon in Federal Court for copyright infringement. It appears to me that Amazon found it more profitable to fill orders for my book by having BookSurge print ARCs and send them to unsuspecting customers as if they were the final version of the book. Amazon claims that a "systems error" at BookSurge, a separate company over whom they had no control caused the problem. I'll leave assessing the logic of Amazon's position to the reader.

Could I have been a test case for Amazon's power grab? It's hard to say because my finished books were offset print, not POD, and were available from industry wholesalers as well as the publisher. But the ARC's files were available to them and they did print unauthorized copies copies from those files.

I would be concerned about ever getting control over my book back if I sent them the PDFs for a finished book. How would you be able to verify how many copies they printed and sold? I know of no inexpensive or reliable way to do that. Let's say you decide to have someone else print your books. How can you make BookSurge/Amazon stop printing them? Does their contract even allow you to do that?

Amazon tying up with Booksurge does not in any way affect print on demand companies to deliver as a publisher. The only change is the printer. Small feat but the remorse could come from authors who might need to shell out more just to do the entire process of synching their meta data (if they've been listed under Ingram/LSI) to work with Booksurge. That could pose a problem.

Editorinchic said:

Amazon tying up with Booksurge does not in any way affect print on demand companies to deliver as a publisher. The only change is the printer. Small feat but the remorse could come from authors who might need to shell out more just to do the entire process of synching their meta data (if they've been listed under Ingram/LSI) to work with Booksurge. That could pose a problem.

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Editorinchic,

I think you glaringly (or deliberately) miss the point of this whole thread. How could 'Amazon tying up with Booksurge not affect print on demand companies to deliver as a publisher'?? The whole point of this thread has been Amazon's moves to get publisher's to use their own 'printer', Booksurge, and the question marks over Booksurge's ability to match the quality and capacity turned out by a rival printer LSI. If that does not go to the very heart of a POD publishers reputation and business, then I don't know what does.

I respect all voices of opinion, but when it is expressed by someone like yourself who blatantly blogs and promotes about one single POD publisher, namely, Xlibris, then I have to question your own balance of opinion and motivation for any posts you make here, or on other threads you have posted to at Absolutewrite in the past week.

LSI Amazon

What's the latest on LSI's relationship with Amazon, is Amazon winding down it acceptance of books printed thru LSI?

CaoPaux, I think that BrazilGirl may be looking for updates on this situation, where Amazon.com offered a higher level of service ("Buy Now" buttons, etc.) to people and presses using BookSurge, which it owns, than to those who used Lightning Source and other printing services.

Right on! IceCreamEmpress.

In particular, as of today, are POD publishers must pay Amazon to print their books or their “buy” buttons would be turned off at the Amazon.com website, or book buyers will have to buy through third-party resellers on the site.

Thanks.
Sounds like the best way to handle this is to use the LSI/Booksurge combo, or the LSI/Amazon.Advantage combo.

Hi all,
I'm aware of the whole "amazon situation" that blew up a few months ago. Now that the dust has settled, things are fine between LSI/Ingram and Amazon. According to my reps at LSI, books will be listed with Amazon, B&N.com etc as before. No need to worry about Booksurge. If I find out anything otherwise, I'll update everyone.

Apparently things were worked out with the new contract or whatever, but nothing was ever reported because I didn't know until I asked either.