page count to page count question.

WhirlingDervish · Jul 16, 2005

I just printed out the almost final draft to my mystery novel, and it never occurred to me before, but:

If you print out 263 pages in courier 12, doubled spaced, what will that translate into, should it get published?

it's not 1 page of manuscript = 1 page of galley, is it?

Thanks.

No, I never said I knew it all.

Perks · Jul 16, 2005

Interesting question... Sadly I haven't a clue, but I'll keep an eye on this thread to hear what the experts say.

Mistook · Jul 16, 2005

There's no way to tell how many pages the published book will be. Variations in font size and spacing, margins, and in page size, will determine the outcome, but it's all up to the publisher.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 16, 2005

length

WhirlingDervish said:
I just printed out the almost final draft to my mystery novel, and it never occurred to me before, but:

If you print out 263 pages in courier 12, doubled spaced, what will that translate into, should it get published?

it's not 1 page of manuscript = 1 page of galley, is it?

Thanks.

No, I never said I knew it all.

There's no exact way to tell, but assuming you use one inch margins, 400 pages of Courier 12 translates into a 100,000 word novel, which is very close to average length. So if you look at an average size pubished novel, yours will be 65,750 words.

WhirlingDervish · Jul 18, 2005

Ah, okay. Thanks!

Cathy C · Jul 18, 2005

I thought this was an interesting question, so I went back to my past three galleys, two of them mass paperback and one hardback of one of the same books (remember that galleys will be the size of the FINISHED product.) Using Courier New, with 1.5" margins all around, one SINGLE-SPACED page of manuscript will equal one SINGLE-SPACED page of galley in mass paperback size (4-1/4 x 6-3/4). When double-spacing, it took about a page and a quarter of the manuscript to equal one page of the galley.

For Trade Paperback and hardback, it was right at two DOUBLE-SPACED pages of manuscript to equal one SINGLE spaced page of galley.

Does that help?

popmuze · Jul 18, 2005

It's long been a habit of mine to count the words on a typical page of novels I read. Many of them have upwards of 500 - 600, but I find the average comfortable reading experience is about 400 words. Anything less is like a YA novel or a novel for the reading impaired (ie big type). So when I'm writing if I hand in a manuscript that has 400 words per page, wouldn't that give the publisher a fairly accurate idea of the final length?
My latest book I'm using Ariel Narrow 12 point, with typical margins, double spaced, which gives me...400 words a page.
Some of these other configurations yield maybe 250-275 words a page, which makes you think you've written a much longer book than you have.
Of course, I guess total word count is the only true barometer....

Jamesaritchie · Jul 18, 2005

Count

Cathy C said:
I thought this was an interesting question, so I went back to my past three galleys, two of them mass paperback and one hardback of one of the same books (remember that galleys will be the size of the FINISHED product.) Using Courier New, with 1.5" margins all around, one SINGLE-SPACED page of manuscript will equal one SINGLE-SPACED page of galley in mass paperback size (4-1/4 x 6-3/4). When double-spacing, it took about a page and a quarter of the manuscript to equal one page of the galley.

For Trade Paperback and hardback, it was right at two DOUBLE-SPACED pages of manuscript to equal one SINGLE spaced page of galley.

Does that help?

It can work this way, or it can be wildly different. Publishers use all sorts of tricks from tinkering with the margins, to font selection, to kerning, to acrtual page size to make a page the size they want it. Each publisher not only tries for a unique look, but teh same publisher will size a book according to how long or short it is, teh look they want, and other factors.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 18, 2005

popmuze said:
So when I'm writing if I hand in a manuscript that has 400 words per page, wouldn't that give the publisher a fairly accurate idea of the final length?
QUOTE]

They could figure it out this way, roughly, at least, but word count isn't the issue. Two novels with the same word count can produce books of very different lengths. You also have to count the spaces between words, all the spaces after a partial sentence, and half pages at the beginning and end of chapters count as full pages because it takes a full sheet of paper to pubish them.

And how are you going to cram four hundred words on a page that's mostly short dialogue?

The best way to give a publisher an extremely accurate idea of how long the published novel will be is simply to use Courier 12. Courier 12, with one inch margins, is 250 words to a publisher, no matter what your word count program says.

popmuze · Jul 18, 2005

But wouldn't you run into the same problem if you have a lot of dialogue, no matter what type you use?
I tried using Courier 12 double space the other day and I thought I was in grade school. You wind up delivering 500 pages for a 300 page book. Which is a lot to have to print out and send around if you're looking for a publisher.

scribbler1382 · Jul 18, 2005

Publishers don't care about ACTUAL words. They only care about lines and they interpret lines as 10 words, no matter how many actual words are on that line. In other words:

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. <-- that's ten words to a publisher

Sigh. <-- And so is that.

See?

ted_curtis · Jul 18, 2005

scribbler1382 said:
Publishers don't care about ACTUAL words. They only care about lines and they interpret lines as 10 words, no matter how many actual words are on that line. In other words:

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. <-- that's ten words to a publisher

Sigh. <-- And so is that.

See?

Aha! The lightbulb just went on over my head...they need to count the white space, sort of like music, the rests take us pas as much "space" as the notes.

I'll never use the word-count on Microsoft Word again. Just multiply by 250, so much easier.

Thanks.

Ted

popmuze · Jul 19, 2005

Just wondering about where on the list of reasons to turn down your novel word count would rank.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 19, 2005

Words

popmuze said:
But wouldn't you run into the same problem if you have a lot of dialogue, no matter what type you use?
I tried using Courier 12 double space the other day and I thought I was in grade school. You wind up delivering 500 pages for a 300 page book. Which is a lot to have to print out and send around if you're looking for a publisher.

No, with Courier 12, a line such as this:

"Hello."

Is still ten words because it still takes a full line of paper to print it. No matter how much or how little ink is on the line, there are still sixty spaces to publish.

Cathy C · Jul 19, 2005

popmuze said:
Just wondering about where on the list of reasons to turn down your novel word count would rank.

This depends a lot on the publisher, popmuze. If, for example, you have a book of 67,000 words, and the publisher is publishing a line of books in the same genre, but they are all 100,000 words, then the length ranks pretty high on the list of reasons to reject it.

But if your book was 120,000 words, it would rank pretty low on that same list, because it can be cut to still fit the 100,000 (or even left as is, if it's just that good.)

See, it's much harder for a new author to beef up a book by almost half and do it in keeping with the plot.

But if the publisher you approach has various lines of various length books, then it doesn't matter much at all.

Does that make sense?

page count to page count question.

WhirlingDervish

Perks

delicate #!&@*#! flower

Mistook

Neverending WIP

Jamesaritchie

WhirlingDervish

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed

Jamesaritchie

Jamesaritchie

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed

scribbler1382

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

ted_curtis

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed

Jamesaritchie

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!