Is Self-Publishing the way to go?

ResearchGuy · Jul 4, 2008

veinglory said:
However unless you plan to do all the printing, binding and fullfilment in your basement and using your own vehicles other companies will be involved in the process, which is what I was referring to.

Sure, but that does not make them the publisher.

--Ken

veinglory · Jul 4, 2008

That's why I didn't say 'publisher'.

LikesToWrite · Jul 6, 2008

It sounds like your goals are in line with what self-publishing can provide. Just don't get suckered into spending a lot of money. There are reputable companies out there who can publish your book, list it on Amazon, and still give you full ownership of your material and ISBN's for $300-$500. You will earn higher royalties on the few books you plan to sell which will hopefully offset that cost.

Maybe after you have one book under your belt, you will have more confidence the next time around.

ResearchGuy · Jul 7, 2008

LikesToWrite said:
It sounds like your goals are in line with what self-publishing can provide. Just don't get suckered into spending a lot of money. There are reputable companies out there who can publish your book, list it on Amazon, and still give you full ownership of your material and ISBN's for $300-$500. You will earn higher royalties on the few books you plan to sell which will hopefully offset that cost.

Maybe after you have one book under your belt, you will have more confidence the next time around.

Lulu.com will sell you an ISBN in your own name, with POD distribution through Amazon, BarnesAndNoble.com, Ingram, and so on, for $100. Your only other costs are whatever review copies of the book are needed until you get it right and your own time or paid expertise for editing, formatting, and book/cover design. (One book I'll be publishing this fall has been through more than a dozen revisions already, with examination copies printed at most of those stages.)

That "higher royalties" bit is misleading, or maybe just incomplete. The royalties ("creator's revenue" in Lulu's terminology) are up to the author/publisher ("creator"). My profit margin on books I publish (with ISBN's issued to me) at $15.00 ranges from a couple of dollars (much of which goes to the author as royalties--I did not write those books--to maybe $6.00, depending on whether sold by Lulu directly or via trade channels (Amazon, etc.), the latter being much less profitable. Margins on copies printed by Lulu in quantity depend on how you set your retail price and how large the quantity. (At 500 and up, discounts are better.) Much also depends on whether you are selling directly or via bookstores (with typical 40% bookstore discount, meaning you would get $9.00 for a $15.00-list-price book.)

You can take the files elsewhere for less expensive printing, as long as you do not use the ISBN elsewhere in the trade (it can of course remain on the book, but the trade cannot show more than one source for a specific ISBN, so you cannot use that same ISBN for a book also published by another POD publisher, for example, or sold via a distributor or wholesaler).

If you are selling books directly, "royalties" is probably not the right term, but rather simply "profits" or maybe "markup," as these are goods you are reselling personally.

If you do not own the ISBN, then you are not the publisher, so that is something to be aware of. To some it is a technicality, but if your goal is to be publisher (and if you might want to use that ISBN on books you have printed elsewhere), then it is important.

By way of example, I am the publisher of the books I have printed/distributed via Lulu and its trade arrangements. The ISBN's are issued to me, although purchased from Bowker by way of Lulu. Lulu is the printer/facilitator (and a retailer), not the publisher. (You will see no reference to Lulu in the books themselves or at Amazon etc., only to my own company name as publisher.)

FWIW.

--Ken

LikesToWrite · Jul 7, 2008

Good point. What I meant by higher royalties, was simply higher royalties via self-publishing than through traditional publishing.

veinglory · Jul 7, 2008

I believe Lulu is currently offering that service for free, a limited time offer.

In my experience royalties for self-publishing via a service like Lulu are aboput the same as for commerical publishing. Unless the author is trying to sell a rather over-priced book.

Self-publishing through a printing service allows the author a somewhat larger cut but still often ends up abotu the same when you take into account what they lose on doing their own distibution, marketing etc.

LikesToWrite · Jul 7, 2008

I think CreateSpace is offering their pro-plan for free until the end of July. Your distribution will be limited to Amazon, though. They do pay well for Amazon sales, and they offer good author purchased discounts. I just depends on what your goals are for your book.

ResearchGuy · Jul 7, 2008

veinglory said:
I believe Lulu is currently offering that service for free, a limited time offer. . . .

Nope. That is for the "Published by Lulu" package, where Lulu owns the ISBN and is by definition the publisher.

--Ken

LikesToWrite · Jul 8, 2008

In this particular case, the author may not care too much who the publisher is.

hastingspress · Jul 25, 2008

If you are not interested in money, why not upload it as a website and give it away free?

Helena

Mr Sci Fi said:
I'm also not interested in money, the best seller list, or any sort of prestige. All I want to do is get my story into the hands of readers whom I think might enjoy what I've written.

Stormhawk · Jul 25, 2008

Mr Sci Fi;2500255All I want to do is get my story into the hands of readers whom I think might enjoy what I've written. [/quote said:
hastingspress said:

If you are not interested in money, why not upload it as a website and give it away free?

Click to expand...

Heartily agreed. Serialise the work, the self-publish later, that way you've (hopefully) already got a fanbase built in.

At Wibbly, I host four serials (including my own), and a possible fifth on the way. We put an episode or three/four/five up a week and at the end, we publish the books. We haven't quite got to the last stage, but I already know how we're going about it (we've registered as a business, about to get the block of ISBNs and we're going through LSI).

circlexranch · Jul 27, 2008

Hey ResearchGuy! What is the link to your storefront? That is a problem with Lulu, it is hard to find a particular storefront.

Terri

PS: I'm in Kansas now, but am from the Citrus Heights area. I went to school at ARC.

ResearchGuy · Jul 27, 2008

circlexranch said:
Hey ResearchGuy! What is the link to your storefront? That is a problem with Lulu, it is hard to find a particular storefront.

Terri

PS: I'm in Kansas now, but am from the Citrus Heights area. I went to school at ARC.

Yo, Terri!

It is http://stores.lulu.com/kenumbach -- and thank you for asking.

ARC is a fine school. My lovely wife got a business degree there, and has profited mightily from the excellent courses she took in everything from writing to algebra. Two of our sons went there for their first two years of college, too, then going on to graduate from Sac State.

Keep an eye out for Wyla the Witch, by Evelyn Swift, which I'll publish shortly (official launch in local bookstore on Oct. 25th, but probably available online before that). That is going to be fun (the book and the launch party both).

--Ken

hastingspress · Jul 28, 2008

"If you are not interested in money, why not upload it as a website and give it away free?"

Or even if you ARE interested in money ~ in not losing any!

You see, by the time you've paid out for printing, then spent a year or two or ten desperately trying to sell copies, what if all you achieve is getting your money back?

Hence, give it away on a website and save yourself all that stress!

(Why won't the italics turn off?)

robertmblevins · Aug 2, 2008

Researchguy says, in part:

'By way of example, I am the publisher of the books I have printed/distributed via Lulu and its trade arrangements. The ISBN's are issued to me, although purchased from Bowker by way of Lulu. Lulu is the printer/facilitator (and a retailer), not the publisher.'

All 'Published by Lulu' books are issued an ISBN with the Lulu prefix, 978. I notice your books have this prefix. This makes Lulu the publisher of record. They also cost $15 or so each, (plus shipping) which is WAY above normal retail for those books.

I recommend Lightning Source.

ResearchGuy · Aug 3, 2008

robertmblevins said:
. . . I notice your books have this prefix. This makes Lulu the publisher of record. They also cost $15 or so each, (plus shipping) which is WAY above normal retail for those books.

I recommend Lightning Source.

Not as far as Bowker/Books in Print is concerned. Their records show me as publisher, under business name. That is reflected at Amazon.com, BarnesAndNoble.com, and so on. The only glitch was a temporary one when Bowker noticed that I'd changed the imprint name between first and second book. That got resolved by email.

As for the cost . . . the list price (retail) is $15. That is not too far out of line for a trade paperback of that length (high for Melanoma Melodrama, at 128 pages, I grant you, though). I can sell locally at $10 or $12, sales tax included, profitably, though I don't do much of that as I don't want to undermine retailers (to whom I provide books at 40 percent discount from list).

The first book I did is list priced at $15.95 because I had not yet worked out the pricing, and it is a fund-raiser for the authors' organization. But they sell it at $15, tax included, locally (and apparently sell a lot of them at that price).

Thanks ever so much for your comments about Lightning Source. I'll take that under advisement. Obviously I get a lot of unsolicited advice, most of which reflects no understanding of my reasons for the choices I have made, nor the trade-offs that go into my choices.

--Ken

P.S. About that 978 prefix? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN . Search the page for "978." Note the text accompanying the second occurrence

P.P.S. I see that 978 is the ISBN prefix for the recent Oxford University Press book What Hath God Wrought, Daniel Walker Howe, author (picked because it is right at hand). D'ya figure that Lulu is the publisher rather than Oxford? Just wondering.

P.P.P.S. That "all A is B" does not mean that "all B is A."

robertmblevins · Aug 4, 2008

Actually, it's the first FIVE digits, not three. You are correct there. But are you doing your authors any favors by trying to sell the e-versions of their books for $7.50 a download? Sounds expensive.

And those six/nine copies for $15.00 plus a minimum of $3.50 for shipping? Unless they have gold leaf lettering on all pages, that also sounds a bit high.

If you were going through Lightning Source, for example, you could get copies of those books for around $3.25-$3.50 per copy at single copies, and less for bulk. Then you could print yourself a nice color catalog and start mailing it to bookstores. Maybe offer up those titles at around $4.00-$4.50 a copy wholesale to the bookstores.

And retail for maybe half of what you are charging now.

You would get some actual sales and your authors would like you a lot more...

ResearchGuy · Aug 4, 2008

robertmblevins said:
. . . e-versions of their books for $7.50 a download? Sounds expensive.

. . .
You would get some actual sales and your authors would like you a lot more...

You seem to have a large ax to grind.

FWIW, the authors I am working with are pleased. And since my publishing agreements may be canceled by the author on a few-months notice without penalty and fully disclose the limits to my publishing model (which for them is the alternative to NO publishing, pays royalties on cover price, and does not require a dime of payment from the authors), no one seems to have cause for complaint.

But thanks ever so much for your gratuitous advice. I'll take it under advisement.

Meanwhile, if you are going to be in the Sacramento area on Oct. 25th, do feel invited to the festive book launch/signing party for Wyla the Witch, by Evelyn Swift. Details are at my business home page. You might win a prize. The party will also feature Evelyn's contemporary novel The Lostcreek Legacy. Treats, costumes, bonuses with purchase (in celebration of California Writers Week), and prizes (no purchase required for drawing prizes, of course).

Going to be at the California State Fair this year? Check the schedule for the California Authors booth, where authors of my first published book, Capital Crimes: Fifteen Tales by Sacramento Area Authors, will be greeting visitors and signing books. They will be there on Aug. 21st, and maybe other dates.

--Ken

robertmblevins · Aug 4, 2008

Well, those are all noble efforts to help spread the word on your authors, Ken. And I do commend you for trying.

My question would be: How will you get your authors into bookstores without being able to acquire copies at wholesale rates? Lulu already charges you roughly DOUBLE per copy from what you should be paying, and that doesn't even include shipping for the book.

Meanwhile, if you were with LSI, you could be getting these books at around 3-4 dollars a copy at single copies, less for bulk. Then you could print up a catalog and start mailing it out to bookstores. This would be after you set your wholesale and retail prices at LSI. (maybe 4-5 dollars per copy to wholesalers and 8-9 at retail)

Adventure Books of Seattle tried what you are doing for four years. We did a dozen books through Lulu, and a nice magazine. It was a waste of time. Bookstores are absolutely adamant about one thing. They will NOT touch a book they cannot acquire wholesale, which means 50-55% off what's called 'normal retail' for a particular size/type book. They've been doing business like this for decades, and they also insist on a 90-day sale or return policy. (you can set this up through your LSI account)

In fact, you are already charging one-third more than NORMAL RETAIL for those books. I checked. Six/nine generally retails in the 8-11 dollar range at bookstores, Safeway aisles, anywhere. And there is no shipping charge.

You want 15 bucks a copy, plus shipping. This brings the price to almost twice the norm.

For what you paid for two of those 'Published by Lulu' packages (about $300) you could have picked up your first ten ISBN's from Bowkers and uploaded your first book to Lightning Source. Then...that book would be added to LSI's New Release Newsletter, which goes out to 10,000 retail outlets a month. Then...you could pick up promo copies for just over THREE dollars a copy, set your wholesale to say...4.50, and a retail at maybe eight dollars.

Book jobbers at Amazon would start listing your titles. Bookstores would make a few orders. You would start receiving some real royalties quarterly from LSI for distribution to your authors and to keep the company going.

Just some thoughts. Lulu is a book printer, and they have a nice product. But for actually selling and marketing books realistically, they are abysmal. Our one consolation with banging our heads against the wall with Lulu was this: We only bought into their ridiculous marketing package a couple of times, and thank God I resisted on most of my own works. This makes it easy to dump them and go to a REAL distributor. The only ones I put an ISBN on were 'Robinson Crusoe - Special Redux Edition' and 'Dimensions'. I wish I had not done it for Dimensions, though. The other one I don't care about. You can download the eVersion free on our website, anyway. English teachers often take advantage of this, from what I hear in the occasional email.

ResearchGuy · Aug 4, 2008

robertmblevins said:
. . . How will you get your authors into bookstores without being able to acquire copies at wholesale rates? . . .

Believe it or not, I make the numbers work in a way I find satisfactory for my purposes. And any time the authors are dissatisfied, they are entirely free to pursue a different option and we will still be friends. Meanwhile, I pay royalties on cover price.

You are confusing yourself by making many unfounded assumptions and inferences and annoying me with your intrusive and unrequested advice. I'm sorry things have not worked out for you. Don't take it out on me.

By the way, don't feel that I am picking on you. I get a lot of well-intentioned but misguided unsolicited advice locally, too, sometimes making some of the same irrelevant points you are making (but not making the same outright mistakes).

--Ken

Williebee · Aug 4, 2008

Hey Robert,

Might pass on to your rep at Lightning Source, I'd feel a lot more comfortable about them if they'd:

1) be a bit clearer and more forthcoming about their pricing structure on their website.

and/or 2) Answer their phones.

(I have a small children's christmas story that I'm planning to make the "everybody gets one" Christmas gift this year.)
I've sent them an e-mail with my questions. I'll get back to you on my progress.

robertmblevins · Aug 4, 2008

Research Guy says, in part:

'Believe it or not, I make the numbers work in a way I find satisfactory for my purposes.' (when asked how he gets books into bookstores without being able to obtain copies at less than wholesale)

You've probably figured out by now that I am no-baloney type of guy. And that quote above was not an answer. The answer is: You can't. And so...neither do the authors get their books into stores.

As far as Lightning Source, they are a serious business, having already printed and distributed more than 30 million paperbacks. They are the printer for Ingram, the largest database in the world for books, and their factory in Levigne, Tennessee is a huge place. (Google under images, Lightning Source)

They receive hundreds of requests a day for information. I had to send them a couple of messages, too. But they eventually got back to me. I had their price list around but I can't find it at the moment. They quoted me a price for 'Dimensions', a six/nine paperback at 166 pages. The price was $3.16 for single copies, with discounts on purchases above 24 copies. Once you list a book with them, every book jobber (the guys at Amazon and other sites who list books for sale) will pick up your book, because many also have accounts at LSI.

How it works...you could buy your Dimensions-type book for 3.16. You set your wholesale price to libraries, bookstores, wholesalers, Barnes, Amazon, etc at maybe 4.00 to 4.50. Maybe retail at 8. Print catalogs, mail them out, re-do your website. Barnes and Noble, for example, will practically guarantee an initial order for distribution if you wholesale. You have to fill out a form for them and send it in, with the ISBN's, prices, ordering info at LSI, etc. You can do it online. You have to be a publisher, even if it is Joe Smith Books or something. And you must have your own prefix. I know this setup from speaking to some of the local store managers.

Then, if your books sell, B and N's computer program takes over from the first human-initiated order, and they order more automatically. They use a program that increases the number of purchases of a new title based on the previous sales. If you do well, pretty soon they are ordering and distributing to their outlets all over the place. This means if you go with LSI, then you should make active marketing efforts.

The key of course, is...like ALL bookstores...'can you get it for me wholesale?'

I know some of you don't like hearing this stuff. It's easy to delude yourself into thinking Lulu works. But for any realistic marketing, it just doesn't.

In this better model I described, the one big monkey is now off your back. You are now on a much more level playing field with the 'big boys'. You can hold up your head and approach bookstores with your catalog without being laughed out the door.

I know I can also be a little tough on people sometimes, depending on the situation. My little company was also one of many who brought down the hammer on the infamous American Book Publishing with our scathing investigation of C Lee Nunn. This article at Newsvine/MSNBC has been viewed thousands of times via Google links.

(Note: I just went back to that article. Haven't seen it in a while. I noticed we quoted Victoria Strauss. I wonder if this is the same person who moderates here...?)

Nick Russell · Aug 4, 2008

Years ago I had a couple of mystery novels published traditionally. Between writing the books, rewriting the books, sending out several dozen queries and finally getting an agent who sold the books, and rewriting them yet again for the publisher, by the time my agent took his slice, I made just about half of what I could have made working fast food for the same amount of time involved.

I turned to non-fiction books, booklets, and niche guides, and have happily self-published for years now. I make 100% of my income from writing and self-publishing, and associated activities such as presenting seminars and workshops that grew out of my writing. I’m not getting rich at it, but my income is just shy of six figures annually.

However, and this is a big however, very few of my books are sold traditionally through bookshops. You can order them through your favorite bookshop, but that is a tiny portion of my annual sales. While I do sell some books through specialty shops, most of my sales are made either directly to the consumer through our niche publication, through our three websites, through affiliates with other website publishers, and at my speaking gigs.

As a self-publisher I am responsible for everything from writing to book design, arranging printing, marketing, etc. But that’s fine, because every job I do myself means a bigger piece of the profits that I keep.

I currently use Lightning Source, and I think I have for the last 7 years or so. I am very pleased with their service, prices, and quality.

ResearchGuy · Aug 4, 2008

robertmblevins said:
. . .You can't. And so...neither do the authors get their books into stores. . . .

Thank you ever so much for another blast of unsolicited and irrelevant advice.

Now to the "Ignore" list for you.

--Ken

veinglory · Aug 4, 2008

Given that distributed copies of Lulu are produced by Lightning Souece it should come as no surprise that Lulu adds cost and limited options when they add services (e.g. training wheels) to Lightning Source?

Is Self-Publishing the way to go?

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